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OfflineGernBlanston
unintended sideeffect

Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 841
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Does anyone believe that this is finally grounds to impeach?
    #2584818 - 04/20/04 11:42 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I'm referring to the disclosure by Bob Woodward in his new book that the White House deferred $700 MILLION dollars appropriated by congress in late (Dec, I belive) 2001 for use in the campaign in Afghanistan to be used instead in Iraq (well before ever making any case for invasion).  Articles where you can read more:

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Bush-War-Planning.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/20/politics/20SPEN.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/19/politi...V40waPHsUZ3MUdQ
(Yah - I used the Times because it was fast... Search for yourself...)

Anyway, what I'm curious about is whether - assuming this is true - you believe that this is grounds for impeachement.  Have you felt that impeachement was warranted for any prior actions of the White House?  If no, please explain your position, if you'd be so kind. :smile:

Let's try not to flame here - This is all about the curiosity.  Thanks :wink:


--------------------
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Posts: 27,301
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Re: Does anyone believe that this is finally grounds to impeach? [Re: GernBlanston]
    #2584951 - 04/21/04 12:22 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

It sounds corrupt to me, but I'm not sure what crime you'd charge Bush with here. If I remember correctly, impeachment occurs when the president is accused of a crime. I would call for his resignation, but there's about a snowball's chance in hell of him giving up any power voluntarily.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineGernBlanston
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Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 841
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Re: Does anyone believe that this is finally grounds to impeach? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2585446 - 04/21/04 02:08 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Voluntarily?  No.  But a crime has been committed.

It is a Constitutional power that allows congress to allocate money from the US treasury to be used in a specific discretionary fashion.  Any use other than the use for which it was allocated is illegal.  I'm tired - it's 2 am, so forgive me... but I'll look up the precise constitutional article tomorrow and share it.  I'll also take a few to get some more of the specifics here too.  I know a lot of it, but don't feel like typing for another half hour :smile:

Gern

<edited: spelling>


Edited by GernBlanston (04/21/04 02:09 AM)


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OfflineGernBlanston
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Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 841
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Re: Does anyone believe that this is finally grounds to impeach? [Re: GernBlanston]
    #2586954 - 04/21/04 03:06 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Ok - More info:

http://www.thenation.com/capitalgames/index.mhtml?bid=3&pid=1388
Quote:


The disclosure that appears to unsettle the White House the most is Woodward's assertion that in mid-January 2003 Bush decided to proceed with the invasion of Iraq. Woodward also notes that in November 2001, Bush asked the Pentagon to whip up a plan for war with Iraq. Such an order can be defended by the administration as prudent planning. After all, in the post-9/11 world, you never know when you might need such a plan. (Yes, General Tommy Franks lied to the public in May 2002 when he said, "My boss has not yet asked me to put together a plan" for attacking Iraq. Who, though, expects a military commander to reveal his secret plans?) But in the months before the war, the White House insisted that Bush was pursuing diplomatic options in good faith. At a November 20, 2002, speech in Prague, Bush said, "Our goal is to secure the peace through the comprehensive and verified disarmament of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction." And in late January, Bush spokesman Ari Fleischer said, "Nobody, but nobody, is more reluctant to go to war than President Bush....He does not want to lead the nation to war."



and...
Quote:


What has received less attention in the ongoing gabfest over Woodward's latest is his charge that in the summer of 2002, the Pentagon, following Bush's orders, spent $700 million preparing for war with Iraq--upgrading airfields, bases, weapons storage facilities--and did not tell Congress. Last time I checked Section Nine of Article One of the U.S. Constitution (this morning), it read, "No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law." This means Congress decides where the money goes. Congress did not appropriate funds for these purposes, according to Woodward. That is, Bush took money appropriated for other reasons and had the Pentagon use it for his war in Iraq. There are, of course, procedures governing secret spending by a president and the Pentagon, but such spending still--in theory--is supposed to be overseen by members of Congress. Then, at least, spending hidden from the public is not kept secret from the public's representatives. But in this instance, if Woodward is correct, Bush assumed imperial power and violated a basic premise of the republic.




Okay. Section Nine, Article One:
http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Constitution.html

Quote:


Section. 9.
Clause 1: The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a Tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.

Clause 2: The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

Clause 3: No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.

Clause 4: No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken. (See Note 7)

Clause 5: No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State.

Clause 6: No Preference shall be given by any Regulation of Commerce or Revenue to the Ports of one State over those of another: nor shall Vessels bound to, or from, one State, be obliged to enter, clear, or pay Duties in another.

Clause 7: No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law; and a regular Statement and Account of the Receipts and Expenditures of all public Money shall be published from time to time.

Clause 8: No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.





It seems to me to be fairly cut and dried. A crime has been committed by the White House, and the president, vice president, sec def and dep sec def (at the very least) are all implicated.

So again... If we assume that this information from Bob Woodward is true, do you think this is grounds for impeachment?


--------------------
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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InvisibleXochitl
synchronicitycircuit
Registered: 07/15/03
Posts: 1,241
Loc: the brainforest
Re: Does anyone believe that this is finally grounds to impe [Re: GernBlanston]
    #2587433 - 04/21/04 05:30 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I certainly think these are impeachable offenses, but the Bush apologists would argue that the USA Patriot Act allowed the administration to do as they wished with the funding because an invasion of Iraq was under the umbrella of "fighting terrorism." What a sad, propaganda-filled, ideological stretch that is.


--------------------
As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon


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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
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Re: Does anyone believe that this is finally grounds to impe [Re: Xochitl]
    #2587571 - 04/21/04 06:17 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I think it is time we all move on... :grin:


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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OfflineGernBlanston
unintended sideeffect

Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 841
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Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
Re: Does anyone believe that this is finally grounds to impe [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2588768 - 04/21/04 11:28 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Please tell me that's a joke.


--------------------
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
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Re: Does anyone believe that this is finally grounds to impe [Re: GernBlanston]
    #2589324 - 04/22/04 01:16 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

(with a contrite Arkansas accent)


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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OfflineGernBlanston
unintended sideeffect

Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 841
Loc: In my pants
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
Re: Does anyone believe that this is finally grounds to impe [Re: GernBlanston]
    #2599470 - 04/25/04 01:04 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks for all the opinions.
*sigh*

Sorry... I forgot how much y'all hate to actually read.
Sorry - that was ugly.
Nevermind.


--------------------
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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InvisibleLucidDream
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Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 1,496
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Re: Does anyone believe that this is finally grounds to impe [Re: GernBlanston]
    #2599707 - 04/25/04 02:19 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

All right! A Hightower fan!  :thumbup: Jim for President.

It depends what you mean by "impeachable." Not even sex is going to bring him down. Bush could give a blowjob to a boy scout and the media whores would still fellate him at every opportunity. BTW, Richard Clarke places the date the order came down to prepare to move on Iraq on 9-12-01, much sooner than Woodward. Josh Marshall, in his archives, places it within 2 weeks of 9-11.

It should be impeachable, and if it was a Democrat in office, it already would be. But this is the same bunch that engineered Iran-Contra. They were only emboldened by that whole fiasco. Hell, these are the same people that tried to make such a boogeyman out of the Soviet Union, until - whoops! - they're not even there anymore. Perhaps their hubris will finally bring them down.

Congress has yet to say much about the $700 million misappropriation. They're waiting to hear what the people think, and the people are largely asleep. Far more promising are the impending indictments in the Plame case which lead directly to Rove and Cheney, and Cheney's chief of staff and national security advisor. In other good news, DeLay will probably be indicted soon as well, for breaking (shattering) Texas election laws.

* will only be impeached if the people get sufficiently pissed off with him. But a glance at CNN or MSGOP or the WaPo or Times makes it clear that he continues to receive almost daily blowjobs from the media whores.

Hey, check out the latest Dowd: Bushworld

It's their reality. We just live and die in it.

In Bushworld, our troops go to war and get killed, but you never see the bodies coming home.

In Bushworld, flag-draped remains of the fallen are important to revere and show the nation, but only in political ads hawking the president's leadership against terror.

In Bushworld, we can create an exciting Iraqi democracy as long as it doesn't control its own military, pass any laws or have any power.

In Bushworld, we can win over Falluja by bulldozing it.

In Bushworld, it was worth going to war so Iraqis can express their feelings ("Down With America!") without having their tongues cut out, although we cannot yet allow them to express intemperate feelings in newspapers ("Down With America!") without shutting them down.

In Bushworld, it's fine to take $700 million that Congress provided for the war in Afghanistan and 9/11 recovery and divert it to the war in Iraq that you're insisting you're not planning.

More...


--------------------
Sarcasm just one of my many talents.



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