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 Mr. Funguy
Quasi Frodo
 
Registered: 01/19/19
Posts: 1,077
Loc: Terra
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
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 Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span?  [Re: Mateja]
#25844347 - 02/28/19 06:10 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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Just kiss and make up already.
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 Mateja
Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: Mr. Funguy]
#25844362 - 02/28/19 06:18 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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My theoretical and practical knowledge about home cultivation is perfectly reasonable by any standards on mush cult. I understand more or less the basics and have done a lot of reading. But there's always one person 'calling me out' for my poor understanding of this hobby and my poor results and technique. Always bringing old stuff up and making it extremely personal. This is not okay in my opinion, trying to undermine my posts by saying I'm obviously so thick I'm not worth talking to. This is so far from the truth that it's really sad reading it like that. I hope this changes in the future like I've said all the other times. I'll give it more time. And thanks for your inputs so far, maybe we're talking about different things or are confused about something else but if rather sort that out instead of resolving to creating further resistence to a productive discussion. This is my last 2 cents on this it's getting pretty tiresome... 
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Cakes inside Water Tub
Edited by Mateja (02/28/19 06:19 PM)
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sinisterminister7
Psycho for Myco
Registered: 03/30/14
Posts: 79
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: Mateja]
#25844425 - 02/28/19 06:52 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Mateah said:
My theoretical and practical knowledge about home cultivation is perfectly reasonable by any standards on mush cult. I understand more or less the basics and have done a lot of reading. But there's always one person 'calling me out' for my poor understanding of this hobby and my poor results and technique. Always bringing old stuff up and making it extremely personal. This is not okay in my opinion, trying to undermine my posts by saying I'm obviously so thick I'm not worth talking to. This is so far from the truth that it's really sad reading it like that. I hope this changes in the future like I've said all the other times. I'll give it more time. And thanks for your inputs so far, maybe we're talking about different things or are confused about something else but if rather sort that out instead of resolving to creating further resistence to a productive discussion. This is my last 2 cents on this it's getting pretty tiresome...
Are you gonna do the experiment and let us all know how it turns out?
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"Psychedelics are illegal not because a loving government is concerned that you may jump out of a third story window. Psychedelics are illegal because they dissolve opinion structures and culturally laid down models of behaviour and information processing. They open you up to the possibility that everything you know is wrong." - Terrence Mckenna
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Mateja
Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Sure will as I always do! 
I'm just trying to figure what criteria decides that a substrate is sterilized. That's why I'm interested in the opinions of TC's and other experienced growers.
I suggested that I make a grain based substrate that will stay hydrated and keep 'optimal' environment to living organisms and spores. If this substrate doesn't go 'bad' in any way even tho it's incubated in all sorts of 'contaminant promoting' environments such as higher Temps, humidity, water, lack of FAE and so on, can it not practically be considered sterile? If not then my follow up question is what requirements need to be filled for a grain substrate to be considered sterilized?
I'd like useful input on my idea of the experiment and I welcome critique cause I don't want to spend 3 months doing it for nothing.
What are the flaws of this idea for the experiment? I'm asking anyone at this point I'm just looking to widen my perspective on this experiment before doing it. I'm in it for the curiosity, I'll never stop being curious about this hobby.
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Cakes inside Water Tub
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MechaLegend
Stranger Danger
Registered: 03/22/14
Posts: 184
Loc: Texas 
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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I've inoculated jars that have been pressurecooked 3 times over the course of a month and a half. I use MS and if after 2 weeks I don't see any results I repeat the whole process for that jar. Over time, I did notice some shrinkage, but I've never had a jar not colonize due to lack of moisture.
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.-Non sibi sed patriae-.
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JHOVA
Post whore
Registered: 02/17/17
Posts: 4,727
Loc:
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: Mr. Funguy]
#25844473 - 02/28/19 07:18 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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mateah i understand your assumption. That sterilized hydrated grains should exhibit signs of bacteria in a optimal enivronment. I disagree on what constitutes an optimal environment. Bacteria doesnt wanna grow on sterilized steam dried grains. Theres no excess water for them to flourish. The surface moisture dries off once you remove grains and shake them after a pc cycle. All the moisture is inside the grain. Mycelium can break that shit open and extract the moisture but bacteria is shit at it.
Visual confirmation is insufficient in determining the amount of bacteria present in “sterilized jars”. Bacteria is not as aggressive and more localized compared to cube mycelium. A sterilized properly hyrdated grain jar left unmolested, has a lower water content than a jar with ANY inoculant used. Agar, LI, and LC aRe sources of water. Introducing them will kick start the necessary conditions for bacterial growth that would otherwise lay dormant. Dont understimate the changes even a little water can do.
Most times i run into bacteria i see nothing visually. The tell tale sign of bacteria is time. Is your grain stalling? How many weeks? Did it stall after a shake? Thats bacteria.
Messing around with clean grains especially WBS from big name store where it has gone from factory to shelf is pointless when looking to test the endospore theory. Millet is smaller and has less surface area to sterilize.
Heres my experince and my challenge to people not “believing” in endospores/ bacteria. Buy a 50# bag of oats or milo. Only buy a bag crawling with weevils. Dump the bag in a 5 gallon bucket and let the weevils multiply for a a few weeks. Normal pc times at 90 minutes become insifficient. It only buys you a 2 week grace period. Mold is not fucking the grains up. Or prep. Or sterile technique.
Always bacteria showing up 4 weeks later and brining my jars to the slowest crawl across grains and they dont recover after a shake. The cleanest agar plates colonizing great for 2 weeks then....stall.
Someone thinking “oh all th endospores have been killed. It must be my prep or sterile technique” will be ruling out th grain source which it most certainly can be and is in certain situations.
First of all you need to set common parameters to be tested. Establish if grain is very dirty/some what dirty/ clean, soak time, inoculation method: liquid, solid, gelatin semisolid, how long before inoculation to allow endospores or bacteria to grow, expected colonization % of myco quart, did the grain colonize quickly then stall?
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Vibe_Enthusiast
Mushroom Technician
Registered: 10/16/18
Posts: 2,420
Loc: GPS signal lost..
Last seen: 3 months, 4 days
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: JHOVA]
#25844491 - 02/28/19 07:25 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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Well now I'm on a tight rope here. I would hate to waste a while dish on jars if it's not going to work... meh I guess I should just reprep them when the time comes. Damn that sucks.
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JHOVA
Post whore
Registered: 02/17/17
Posts: 4,727
Loc:
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I would knock all the jars up with the cleanest agar you have. Might as well.
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Vibe_Enthusiast
Mushroom Technician
Registered: 10/16/18
Posts: 2,420
Loc: GPS signal lost..
Last seen: 3 months, 4 days
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And quite honestly. I do enjoy a nice debate and nicely worded responses to read.. as to adding to my knowledge.
So please.. continue lol
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Mateja
Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: JHOVA]
#25844501 - 02/28/19 07:28 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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That's why my suggestion is to use a grain based substrate instead of just grain. A mostly grain substrate that contains both field capacity substrate for molds, yiest and other shit and at the same time even contains excess water for bacteria to flourish. An all inclusive kind of sub is in my mind. Of course 'optimal' is 'optimal' hence the 'signs'. Im trying to eliminate variables like dry grain and substrates not supporting bacterial growth. That's why I'm fishing for opinions.
That's for chiming in J
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Cakes inside Water Tub
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Vibe_Enthusiast
Mushroom Technician
Registered: 10/16/18
Posts: 2,420
Loc: GPS signal lost..
Last seen: 3 months, 4 days
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: JHOVA]
#25844504 - 02/28/19 07:29 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
JHOVA said:
I would knock all the jars up with the cleanest agar you have. Might as well.
Yeah man fuck it. I'll just keep the donor dish around because it grew out to be damn clean. But I'm waiting for the 2nd transfer to grow out.
Edited by Vibe_Enthusiast (02/28/19 07:29 PM)
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MechaLegend
Stranger Danger
Registered: 03/22/14
Posts: 184
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: Mateja]
#25844517 - 02/28/19 07:35 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Mateah said:
That's why my suggestion is to use a grain based substrate instead of just grain. A mostly grain substrate that contains both field capacity substrate for molds, yiest and other shit and at the same time even contains excess water for bacteria to flourish. An all inclusive kind of sub is in my mind. Of course 'optimal' is 'optimal' hence the 'signs'. Im trying to eliminate variables like dry grain and substrates not supporting bacterial growth. That's why I'm fishing for opinions.
That's for chiming in J
The main point of substrate is that it's a digestible water retainer. If it's grain related I feel like that opens it up to contamination. Why not us poo, coir, or vermiculite?
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.-Non sibi sed patriae-.
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JHOVA
Post whore
Registered: 02/17/17
Posts: 4,727
Loc:
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Thats introducing external variables. Keep it to grain and sterilized water, sterilized agar etc. if you add in a mixed sub what caused what? Yiu lose the plot.
The proper question frames the experiment.
Dirty grain is a thing to behold 
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MechaLegend
Stranger Danger
Registered: 03/22/14
Posts: 184
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: JHOVA]
#25844533 - 02/28/19 07:43 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
JHOVA said:
Thats introducing external variables. Keep it to grain and sterilized water, sterilized agar etc. if you add in a mixed sub what caused what? Yiu lose the plot.
The proper question frames the experiment.
Dirty grain is a thing to behold
Are we still talking about whether or not grain dies over time in an unopened jar? By dying I mean unusable.
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.-Non sibi sed patriae-.
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Mateja
Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: JHOVA]
#25844539 - 02/28/19 07:46 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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Have you read what I've been discussing so far Mecha? 
I'm trying to find out how one can determine that grain has been sterilized, or if it's even possible to determine this.
The grain based sub I'm thinking about contains both perfectly hydrated grain in one piece and also mushed grain and over hydrated grain, a nice mix of every kind of desired condition for live organisms and spores. 
Quote:
JHOVA said:
Thats introducing external variables. Keep it to grain and sterilized water, sterilized agar etc. if you add in a mixed sub what caused what? Yiu lose the plot.
The proper question frames the experiment.
Dirty grain is a thing to behold
I'm not adding anything to anything post sterilization. I'm just thinking of ways of sterilizing (mostly) grain but in an environment that will not leave grains dry on the outside after 3 months. Like I said an all inclusive substrate with mostly grains. I prepare this sub in a qt jar and PC for 120min on 18 PSI and leave it for a few months to see if anything visible shows up. And maybe doing several of these subs one with pre soaked grain to promote germination/spore production pre sterilization cycle to see if that jar shows different results.
Feels like I'm being pretty straight forward with this idea, Idk what's causing all the confusion 
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Cakes inside Water Tub
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stareatclouds
star eat clouds?
Registered: 09/29/14
Posts: 10,128
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: Mateja]
#25844553 - 02/28/19 07:53 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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Ugh... sterilize grain normally and let it sit out for 2 weeks, a month, 45 days, 60, etc. And inoculate with clean mycelium like you would any other jar. Who gives a fuck about proving whether it's sterile or not? Check and see if it's viable with a reliable culture. That's practical for our purposes. Fuck it, I have old grain sitting out now, I'll do it.
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MechaLegend
Stranger Danger
Registered: 03/22/14
Posts: 184
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: Mateja]
#25844558 - 02/28/19 07:55 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Mateah said:
Have you read what I've been discussing so far Mecha?
I'm trying to find out how one can determine that grain has been sterilized, or if it's even possible to determine this.
The grain based sub I'm thinking about contains both perfectly hydrated grain in one piece and also mushed grain and over hydrated grain, a nice mix of every kind of desired condition for live organisms and spores.
Quote:
JHOVA said:
Thats introducing external variables. Keep it to grain and sterilized water, sterilized agar etc. if you add in a mixed sub what caused what? Yiu lose the plot.
The proper question frames the experiment.
Dirty grain is a thing to behold
I'm not adding anything to anything post sterilization. I'm just thinking of ways of sterilizing (mostly) grain but in an environment that will not leave grains dry on the outside after 3 months. Like I said an all inclusive substrate with mostly grains. I prepare this sub in a qt jar and PC for 120min on 18 PSI and leave it for a few months to see if anything visible shows up. And maybe doing several of these subs one with pre soaked grain to promote germination/spore production pre sterilization cycle to see if that jar shows different results.
Feels like I'm being pretty straight forward with this idea, Idk what's causing all the confusion
Just boil grain until 25% burst. You will get mush, over hydrated, and maxed in one go...
Then sterilize.
Or just sterilize a petri with agar the same way you would a jar after coughing on it a couple times. You will know soon enough is theres any germs or spores that survived.
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.-Non sibi sed patriae-.
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Mateja
Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Quote:
stareatclouds said:
Who gives a fuck about proving whether it's sterile or not?
A curious mushroom cultivator(s)? And it's not about "proving" anything to anyone or about making anyone wrong.
All I'm doing in this thread is trying to see if there exists a way to determine that a grain jar has been sterilized. And if there is a way to determine this then how would be the best way of approaching this problem of figuring this out. I have noted the idea of inoculating grains that have been stsrilized for a few weeks/months. I will probably inoculate my test rye jar as well.
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Cakes inside Water Tub
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JHOVA
Post whore
Registered: 02/17/17
Posts: 4,727
Loc:
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: Mateja]
#25844634 - 02/28/19 08:41 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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anything you find isnt an indication of all grains. only your specific batch. to truly test any grain theory one must identify and experience dirty grain as well as clean as fuck grain.
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Vibe_Enthusiast
Mushroom Technician
Registered: 10/16/18
Posts: 2,420
Loc: GPS signal lost..
Last seen: 3 months, 4 days
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: JHOVA]
#25844674 - 02/28/19 09:07 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
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So.. my jars are just sitting on a shelf.. I have all sfd lids on each.
I'm just going to use these grains when the time comes and see what happens. I would think if the grains were 'sterile' I'll just have to hope the myc has enough moisture to grow?
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