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InvisiblePinback
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: teladi]
    #25871806 - 03/13/19 03:48 PM (10 days, 31 minutes ago)

Quote:

teladi said:
It is definitely accepted in food science. Sterilization is a game of probabilities, only in food sciences you have the added constraint of maintaining taste.  This is why every relevant government agency suggests you limit how long you store canned goods for (e.g. https://www.cdc.gov/botulism/consumer.html), because no can is truly completely sterile.



That page is for home canning. "These outbreaks often occurred because home canners did not follow canning instructions, did not use pressure canners, ignored signs of food spoilage, or didn’t know they could get botulism from improperly preserving vegetables." Food dating is for food quality, not safety (see here )

Quote:

And also in microbiology, you program your autoclave cycle against the most common expected contaminants. Every now and then sterilization fails 'cause you have something weird creep in, and you have to throw out your entire experiment, or you sequence something completely different.

For every time period, at temperature you experience a log reduction in the number of CFUs in the thing you are sterilizing.  Basic math tells you that you are unlikely to ever reach zero with a typical CFU load, but rather you take it down to an acceptable level without overly deteriorating the substrate.

It's also why you'll never ever find any sterilization method - beit filters or whatever - promising 100% sterilization rate. It's just not doable.




No, sterilization at certain times will reduce the risk of contamination of a given item to some acceptable low number.

Please show me the basic math that says otherwise.


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Invisiblestareatclouds
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: Pinback]
    #25871913 - 03/13/19 04:45 PM (9 days, 23 hours ago)

How is that sterilization?


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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: stareatclouds]
    #25871971 - 03/13/19 05:19 PM (9 days, 23 hours ago)

I am not sure I understand your question. An acceptable number of contaminations due to incomplete sterilization for a hobby cultivator could be 1 jar per 100 (as an example). For food or pharmaceuticals, the acceptable contamination risk would be much lower.

Do we agree that, regardless of sterilization status, there is no short "inoculation window" due to microbial growth after heat treatment?


Edited by Pinback (03/13/19 05:33 PM)


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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: Pinback]
    #25872153 - 03/13/19 06:56 PM (9 days, 21 hours ago)

Lol no I don't agree with that. If you had proof that said otherwise I would, but alas you've got 1 bag from february which apparently still smells fine. Big woop.

Here's a grain jar I pc'd for 50 mins that still smelled fine 2 months later AFTER inoculating it with a random bacteria on a plate.

It was shaken every 2 weeks.

Every person worth their salt who can actually identify bacteria based off of morphology of myc, and not the smell test which is useful like only half the time, has proper sterile tek with agar, yet seems to unarguably see more bacteria in spawn seems to agree that there's undoubtedly still bacteria germinating and thriving in their pc'd spawn. We all agree that the heat reached inside a PC should kill it. The thing which hasn't been proven, and bod said he wanted to try to prove is do the entire contents of the jars reach said temperature? Jars are filled with air pockets. Air, which is one of the greatest insulators.. I'd like to see an experiment done to actually put this to rest, but my experience, as well as countless other growers who've pushed thousands of spawn jars seem to unanimously agree something fishy is afoot.


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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: Mad Season]
    #25872430 - 03/13/19 08:55 PM (9 days, 19 hours ago)

For instance gravity autoclaves will fail the bowie-dick test. Hence the Advent of vacuum pumped autoclaves


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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25872450 - 03/13/19 09:05 PM (9 days, 19 hours ago)

Can bacteria survive 90 minutes at 15 psi on grain? Yes
Does it always? No
Not all grain will be the same
That said grain is fucking cheap prep it when u need it


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InvisibleJ. Jack Flash
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: Mad Season]
    #25872654 - 03/13/19 10:26 PM (9 days, 17 hours ago)

:solved:


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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: Mad Season]
    #25873049 - 03/14/19 03:27 AM (9 days, 12 hours ago)

Quote:

Mad Season said:
Lol no I don't agree with that. If you had proof that said otherwise I would, but alas you've got 1 bag from february which apparently still smells fine. Big woop.




No, I have done this many times over 15+ years. Sometimes inoculating directly after cooling, sometimes waiting weeks or months. Never a problem with bacterial growth. See an earlier post in this thread for my procedure.

What experiment (and outcome) would change your mind?


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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: Pinback]
    #25873151 - 03/14/19 07:00 AM (9 days, 9 hours ago)

Something more compelling than anecdotes for starters

Soon ill test thermometers buried in grain. Air is heavier than steam so i really doubt our sterilization attempts and venting ever remove all the air.


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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: Pinback]
    #25873154 - 03/14/19 07:01 AM (9 days, 9 hours ago)

Quote:

Pinback said:
What experiment (and outcome) would change your mind?



Idk who you were asking specifically but I'll chime in with my 2 cents..


After reading up some more on Bacillus propagation I can confirm that a liquid media is necessary indeed.
And needs to be incubated at 30-37C.


So.. Hydrated grain is NOT a liquid media and it is not kept anywhere near 37C.
So how is Bacillus propagation even supposed to occur in such test jars/environment? :shrug:



As I mentioned before it seems that my idea for test jars is what makes most sense to use in an experiment.
For example test jars can contain 500ml grain water + 300ml hydrated grain each.
And final test can be for example to use the Biopsy Method to inoculate
the test jars with a clean culture and wait for it to colonize the broth fully.


Does this make sense?


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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: Mateah]
    #25873156 - 03/14/19 07:04 AM (9 days, 9 hours ago)

Additional water in a grain jar would make it far easier to sterilize. Especially if grain is submerged


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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25873209 - 03/14/19 07:42 AM (9 days, 8 hours ago)

I'm going to put these grains back into some water tomorrow and PC them again. That won't effect the grain in anyway, right? I just don't feel like wasting all thos grain I have in these jars.

I'm not going to chance wasting all these wedges on grain thats questionable.


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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25873222 - 03/14/19 08:01 AM (9 days, 8 hours ago)

Too bad we can just pour lcs on coir.

So I just woke up probably doesn't make much sense but what if we slightly hydrated grains during a short PC cycle 10-15 minutes drained access water then re pced.

The grains being submerged would make sterilization easier plus even with opening the jar to drain after that first run would probably be less shitty bacteria we can actually PC well.

Especially if inside of the grain the bacteria is dead. Each grain becomes it's own "container" which inside contains more sterile grains.

You following or am I stupid.

:bongload:


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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25873233 - 03/14/19 08:15 AM (9 days, 8 hours ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Additional water in a grain jar would make it far easier to sterilize. Especially if grain is submerged



GOOOOSHHHH!!!! I'll get back to this point later I've already thought about it..


But anyway.


So what are 'dirty grains' now again? To my understanding it is grains that contain a much higher endospore count.
These endospores>live bacteria require a liquid media to propagate in.
But hydrated grain is solid and NOT liquid, so how are these organisms supposed to propagate on grain and outcompete our live cultures? :takingnotes:


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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25873473 - 03/14/19 11:28 AM (9 days, 4 hours ago)

Sorry to interrupt this, ya'll are smarter than me on this, I'm just taking notes... however this quote struck me:

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Additional water in a grain jar would make it far easier to sterilize. Especially if grain is submerged




Is there a reason we don't do this? I'm guessing we'll end up with oatmeal (if using oats) if we PC grains in water, even if we dump them right away after.

Interesting thought nonetheless.


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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: Mateah]
    #25873626 - 03/14/19 01:01 PM (9 days, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

Mateah said:
Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Additional water in a grain jar would make it far easier to sterilize. Especially if grain is submerged



GOOOOSHHHH!!!! I'll get back to this point later I've already thought about it..


But anyway.


So what are 'dirty grains' now again? To my understanding it is grains that contain a much higher endospore count.
These endospores>live bacteria require a liquid media to propagate in.
But hydrated grain is solid and NOT liquid, so how are these organisms supposed to propagate on grain and outcompete our live cultures? :takingnotes:



The same way they do on agar:shrug:


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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: cronicr]
    #25873644 - 03/14/19 01:10 PM (9 days, 3 hours ago)

My finding - I have experimented with this for quite sometime. I tried to use grain jars past the 48he mark that everyone goes by. I have had some luck with it. I find that if u are opening the jar after 2-3 day mark it normally molds BUT if u are NOT opening the lid to knock them up like using a syringe thru a self healing I section port  with either LI or LC then it seem to work ok. :thumbup:


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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: Apc123]
    #25873750 - 03/14/19 01:53 PM (9 days, 2 hours ago)

So say I had cooked up a batch of rye jars last weekend but didn't get around to inoculating all of them right away, and put them in the fridge (sealed jars with plastic lids with SFDs, still foiled) the same day. If I were going to knock up more jars this weekend---so 1 week later---would it be better to (a) use them as-is or (b) PC them again, even if that risks over-cooking or throwing off water content?

(And yes, obviously fresh grain would be best, but I'm open to a slightly higher failure risk in exchange for not wasting the grain. So just want to know which option you all think would be more likely to succeed. FWIW, these will be going into shoeboxes / other small containers, so one bad jar won't ruin the whole grow - hence why I'm ok with a bit of risk. Thanks!)


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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: Durgin]
    #25873780 - 03/14/19 02:05 PM (9 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

Mateah said:
Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Additional water in a grain jar would make it far easier to sterilize. Especially if grain is submerged



GOOOOSHHHH!!!! I'll get back to this point later I've already thought about it..


But anyway.


So what are 'dirty grains' now again? To my understanding it is grains that contain a much higher endospore count.
These endospores>live bacteria require a liquid media to propagate in.
But hydrated grain is solid and NOT liquid, so how are these organisms supposed to propagate on grain and outcompete our live cultures? :takingnotes:



By this theory we would be fine to pasturize grain
Quote:

Durgin said:
So say I had cooked up a batch of rye jars last weekend but didn't get around to inoculating all of them right away, and put them in the fridge (sealed jars with plastic lids with SFDs, still foiled) the same day. If I were going to knock up more jars this weekend---so 1 week later---would it be better to (a) use them as-is or (b) PC them again, even if that risks over-cooking or throwing off water content?

(And yes, obviously fresh grain would be best, but I'm open to a slightly higher failure risk in exchange for not wasting the grain. So just want to know which option you all think would be more likely to succeed. FWIW, these will be going into shoeboxes / other small containers, so one bad jar won't ruin the whole grow - hence why I'm ok with a bit of risk. Thanks!)



For a whole week i wouldnt even use the fridge


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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: cronicr]
    #25873810 - 03/14/19 02:18 PM (9 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

cronicr said:
For a whole week i wouldnt even use the fridge




Thanks for reassurance. I thought that was probably the case, but figured the fridge wouldn't hurt anything except maybe moisture, and unlike contamination you can at least see if moisture is off right away.


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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Mushroom Cultivation

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