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InvisibleMateah
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: BeefSupremeJr]
    #25844112 - 02/28/19 06:34 PM (22 days, 20 hours ago)

Practically no spores and organisms we deal with can  survive 120C for 20 minutes.
The rest of the PC cycle time is spent on making sure this high temp has penetrated to the center of the jar. Let's say only 115C is able to reach into every grain. Still 15min of 115C kills the shit out of the contams we deal with usually. So I'm basically saying if the PC cycle is proper the grain should be sterilized. I make this statement mostly cause it's so unplausable to me to think of a scenario when a proper PC cycle wouldn't kill everything inside hydrated grain.


Edited by Mateah (02/28/19 06:35 PM)


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OfflineBeefSupremeJr
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: Mateah] * 1
    #25844121 - 02/28/19 06:37 PM (22 days, 20 hours ago)

Welll, when you say survive...

What I understand is that endospores can survive it.  They can be damaged yet repair themselves and produce bacteria but it takes a lot of time.


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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: BeefSupremeJr]
    #25844123 - 02/28/19 06:38 PM (22 days, 20 hours ago)

Thanks Beef, for getting all the quotes together and saving me some time :smile: I'm not saying anything outlandish, just what becomes wicked evident when you search these forums and see what the TC's and legends like RR have to say. Learn from others mistakes and save yourself some time. I nocc'd up some two week old grain many years ago, and it all failed right quick. About five minutes in to "search function and chill" and I learned about why you want to noc grains immediately.


--------------------
"Psychedelics are illegal not because a loving government is concerned that you may jump out of a third story window. Psychedelics are illegal because they dissolve opinion structures and culturally laid down models of behaviour and information processing. They open you up to the possibility that everything you know is wrong." - Terrence Mckenna


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Invisiblestareatclouds
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: Mateah]
    #25844127 - 02/28/19 06:40 PM (22 days, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

Mateah said:
This is my story :typing:

Rye jar with SFD 120min 18 PSI about a month later and 4-5shakes later Nothing visible at all. This is a test jar.




I personally truly believe this rye in the jar is sterilized, but I leave room for other 'personal' experiences as well.




This does not indicate it's sterile or viable for our use. Endospores are designed to shell up to prepare for when the going gets tough and lie dormant until more favorable conditions arise. You're sure that no endospores survived and just haven't germinated because these conditions aren't favorable? There aren't endospores that might germinate if you inoculate with spore solution or spawn to a wet enough substrate or raise the temperature?

I'd love to see you inoculate and fruit these jars and compare to your standard results with a known culture. Or maybe you can sterilize a jar of water and dump it in the grain while it's still hot. I figure this would germinate any remaining (or collected after the cycle) endospores, right?


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OfflineBeefSupremeJr
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: sinisterminister7]
    #25844146 - 02/28/19 06:45 PM (22 days, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

sinisterminister7 said:
Thanks Beef, for getting all the quotes together and saving me some time :smile: I'm not saying anything outlandish, just what becomes wicked evident when you search these forums and see what the TC's and legends like RR have to say. Learn from others mistakes and save yourself some time. I nocc'd up some two week old grain many years ago, and it all failed right quick. About five minutes in to "search function and chill" and I learned about why you want to noc grains immediately.





Thank mad season not me.  I just quoted him.

When I think of all the pain and years of error it took these legends to get where they are, I cringe.  Why would anyone want to go through what they already have? I’d rather pickup an easier hobby and quit this nonsense than endure all that. 

One of the finest horticulturalists I’ve ever worked for used to say “you and your fifteen fuckin  minutes of experience” to me— a veteran of 16 years.

And you better believe I shut my mouth and did what I was told. 
After literal years of just DOING what I was taught, I realized why.

You always go “Ooooooooooooh, so THATS why!”


--------------------


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-nobody owes you anything. especially me


Edited by BeefSupremeJr (02/28/19 06:47 PM)


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InvisibleMateah
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: BeefSupremeJr]
    #25844148 - 02/28/19 06:46 PM (22 days, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

BeefSupremeJr said:
Welll, when you say survive...

What I understand is that endospores can survive it.  They can be damaged yet repair themselves and produce bacteria but it takes a lot of time.



Endosplres are not some terminator version of contaminants it's just a normal bacteria spore :shrug: many bacteria types produce so called endo spores but its still just a spore no different from another contaminant spore (as long as I'm aware)

And science tells us what these things can survive and what they can not live through. And they shouldnt be able to live through 115C+ Temps for more than 15-20 minutes. They simply can't survive this. Only if temps drop and raise again then they haven't been constant in that case I can see how they could be able to gain back the 'buffer' they find protection in when it comes to Temps and time.


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InvisibleMateah
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: stareatclouds]
    #25844156 - 02/28/19 06:49 PM (22 days, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

stareatclouds said:
Quote:

Mateah said:
This is my story :typing:

Rye jar with SFD 120min 18 PSI about a month later and 4-5shakes later Nothing visible at all. This is a test jar.




I personally truly believe this rye in the jar is sterilized, but I leave room for other 'personal' experiences as well.




This does not indicate it's sterile or viable for our use. I'd love to see you inoculate and fruit these jars and compare to your standard results with a known culture.



I Understand that it would be hard to verify that this rye is sterilized like how would one prove that, going through every micrometer of every grain inside out? Lol

So let me ask instead. What is hindering live cells and spores inside this rye to germinate and grow at this point? Is there a rational explanation for that in this case?


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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: BeefSupremeJr]
    #25844158 - 02/28/19 06:49 PM (22 days, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

BeefSupremeJr said:
Quote:

sinisterminister7 said:
Thanks Beef, for getting all the quotes together and saving me some time :smile: I'm not saying anything outlandish, just what becomes wicked evident when you search these forums and see what the TC's and legends like RR have to say. Learn from others mistakes and save yourself some time. I nocc'd up some two week old grain many years ago, and it all failed right quick. About five minutes in to "search function and chill" and I learned about why you want to noc grains immediately.





Thank mad season not me.  I just quoted him.

When I think of all the pain and years of error it took these legends to get where they are, I cringe.  Why would anyone want to go through what they already have? I’d rather pickup an easier hobby and quit this nonsense than endure all that. 

One of the finest horticulturalists I’ve ever worked for used to say “you and your fifteen fuckin  minutes of experience” to me— a veteran of 16 years.

And you better believe I shut my mouth and did what I was told. 
After literal years of just DOING what I was taught, I realized why.

You always go “Ooooooooooooh, so THATS why!”



Thanks mad season :wink:


--------------------
"Psychedelics are illegal not because a loving government is concerned that you may jump out of a third story window. Psychedelics are illegal because they dissolve opinion structures and culturally laid down models of behaviour and information processing. They open you up to the possibility that everything you know is wrong." - Terrence Mckenna


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OfflineBeefSupremeJr
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: Mateah]
    #25844160 - 02/28/19 06:50 PM (22 days, 20 hours ago)

It’s all speculation mat.  Like I say, data speaks volumes.  I’d love it you were right, really I would. 
Rigor walks...


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InvisibleMateah
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: BeefSupremeJr]
    #25844171 - 02/28/19 06:53 PM (22 days, 20 hours ago)

I'm thinking about constructing an experiment that may put parts of this argument to rest. What if I was to make a really nice substrate with grain that doesn't risk of drying out but that is still shakable.

How many months would this fully hydrated nutritious substrate have to stand and look fresh before calling it sterile? Is there. A time frame for which some of you TCs would call such substrate sterilized?


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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: Mateah]
    #25844180 - 02/28/19 06:56 PM (22 days, 20 hours ago)

Let’s say you hold a handful of jars for 50 days each. 

Make a poor boy syringe with them, and test it on 100 plates. 

That would satisfy me.


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InvisibleMateah
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: BeefSupremeJr]
    #25844189 - 02/28/19 07:00 PM (22 days, 20 hours ago)

I was thinking more like 90 days and then dropping a cube culture on it to see if it is able to fully colonize and fruit several flushes without a problem. That would satisfy me.


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Invisiblestareatclouds
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: Mateah]
    #25844194 - 02/28/19 07:02 PM (22 days, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

Mateah said:
So let me ask instead. What is hindering live cells and spores inside this rye to germinate and grow at this point? Is there a rational explanation for that in this case?




Yes. There's a reason why your unprepped grain doesn't smell like old cheese fresh out of the bag, but if you soak a batch overnight and let it sit out, it stinks to high heaven. There are certain conditions that must be met to get \endocpores to germinate, just like anything else. If you left an empty petri dish open in your house, you wouldn't see molds and bacterial growth. But if you poured agar into it, you would. 

Bacterial endospores are not the same as regular spores. That's the entire point. I feel like you should actually do some reading on the subject.


Quote:

While significantly resistant to heat and radiation, endospores can be destroyed by burning or by autoclaving at a temperature exceeding the boiling point of water, 100 °C. Endospores are able to survive at 100 °C for hours, although the longer the number of hours the fewer that will survive.




And endospores in your grain require different sterilization methods than something like a scalpel in an autoclave at the hospital.


Quote:

Mateah said:
I'm thinking about constructing an experiment that may put parts of this argument to rest. What if I was to make a really nice substrate with grain that doesn't risk of drying out but that is still shakable.

How many months would this fully hydrated nutritious substrate have to stand and look fresh before calling it sterile? Is there. A time frame for which some of you TCs would call such substrate sterilized?




Your entire method of determining sterility is looking at the jar and not seeing green. Inoculating after 90 days and flushing 3 times wouldn't prove sterility, but would go a long way in proving the viability window is much, much wider than previously thought. Do that. It's what I suggested initially.


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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: Mateah]
    #25844196 - 02/28/19 07:03 PM (22 days, 20 hours ago)

That’d do part of this, but still doesn’t prove that an endospore could be present.

Ok this is getting silly as fuck.


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InvisibleMateah
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: stareatclouds]
    #25844219 - 02/28/19 07:13 PM (22 days, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

stareatclouds said:
Quote:

Mateah said:
So let me ask instead. What is hindering live cells and spores inside this rye to germinate and grow at this point? Is there a rational explanation for that in this case?




Yes. There's a reason why your unprepped grain doesn't smell like old cheese fresh out of the bag, but if you soak a batch overnight and let it sit out, it stinks to high heaven. There are certain conditions that must be met to get \endocpores to germinate, just like anything else. If you left an empty petri dish open in your house, you wouldn't see molds and bacterial growth. But if you poured agar into it, you would.



Who said this rye wasn't prepped? It's hydrated just like the other jars that are colonizing. As I said it's a test jar.

So back to my original question, what would hinder live organisms and spores from germinating/growing in nutritious hydrated temperate environment?


Edited by Mateah (02/28/19 07:15 PM)


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Invisiblestareatclouds
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: Mateah]
    #25844234 - 02/28/19 07:20 PM (22 days, 20 hours ago)

:facepalm:

I'm unwilling to get into another pointless back and forth with you where you ignore basic shit and misinterpret the majority of what I say. Especially when it doesn't seem like you actually know what endospores are or understand the concept of their survival and requirements for germination.

"Inoculating after 90 days and flushing 3 times wouldn't prove sterility, but would go a long way in proving the viability window is much, much wider than previously thought. Do that. It's what I suggested initially."

Do that. I'm not an expert on endospores, but I've suggested pouring sterile, hot water into the jar you posted, as well as inoculating and spawning very old jars to establish some sort of baseline for viability in your situation.


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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: stareatclouds]
    #25844257 - 02/28/19 07:30 PM (22 days, 19 hours ago)

Maybe stop making it so personal every time? :confused:

I just want to discuss science and not what you think I should do with my life and time. And I'm looking for a productive discussion where we speak clear language.

Now I'm lead to believe that you think my rye jar is too dry to germinate contaminants? I've had this in the back of my mind too that's why I suggested the experiment with grain that is prepped and made I to a sub that doesn't dry out for 90 days, and keep temperated. What would in your opinion hinder live organisms/spores from growing/germinating in this substrate? Please just about the science and not about me. I do understand the difference of the composition of the outer shell of endospores and spores of molds. It's different more resistent but it still has its limits. That's why I said it's the same as other spores but I should have been clearer and said it's the same for our purposes we still go hard on the heat so we treat the endospores and mold spores the same when we sterilize grain. That's what I meant to say.

You are very firm on the notion that grain doesn't get sterilized but you can not answer the simple question of why wouldn't live organisms flourish in an optimal environment if the environment standards were met?


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Invisiblestareatclouds
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: Mateah]
    #25844308 - 02/28/19 07:55 PM (22 days, 19 hours ago)

Nothing is personal, but you simply misunderstand far too much of what I say (and general mycology to my understanding) to make this worthwhile for me. In each response of yours, in this thread and others, there's 5+ things I disagree with that I'd have to quote specifically and address directly. All for you to reply back with 5 more things I disagree with and/or didn't say while ignoring initial facts.

I apologize if that's offensive or rude to you, but it is what it is. You were very clearly confused about the difference between endospores and regular spores and seem to be backtracking (poorly). No, you're not correct when you say endospores simply cannot survive more than 15-20 minutes at 115C. And you're obviously wrong by saying they're the same as every other spore.

I've suggested a decent enough test/experiment/whatever repeatedly. Good luck with whatever experiments you do.


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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: stareatclouds]
    #25844330 - 02/28/19 08:03 PM (22 days, 19 hours ago)

*quietly backs away, and out the door*


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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: stareatclouds]
    #25844338 - 02/28/19 08:06 PM (22 days, 19 hours ago)

Ive never been considered a thick or dense person by enyone, and I'm not disagreeing with anything you're saying I'm just asking you in your opinion what would hinder live organisms/spores from germinating/growing in optimal environment?

You have said I should pour sterilized water in my rye jar but you yourself know that that would negate the test immediately if a vector was presented :shrug:

And that's why I suggested the optimal sub that doesn't dry out, and I'm still asking you, what would hinder live cells from flourishing in this 'optimal' environment?

Everyone reading this thread can decide for themselves if I'm really that retarded that I'm considered pointless to talk to.. But I'm just wondering if you are thinking of a specific situation or not regarding my question.


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