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OfflineVibe_Enthusiast
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PC'd Grain - Life Span?
    #25843606 - 02/28/19 03:05 PM (2 months, 23 days ago)

I took the initiative of prepping all of my grain jars because I had time to do so this weekend. But I really didn't think of the full picture because I still am growing out my agar plate that I'm going to drop out to 2 or 3 jars and use one for a g2g.. so I'm going to have some unused grain jar(s) for over a month.

Do you guys think they'll be okay? I'm just wondering if they're going to dry up and be no good and I wasted all of that time and grain... meh.


Edited by Vibe_Enthusiast (02/28/19 03:21 PM)


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OfflineShaperDreaming
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: Vibe_Enthusiast]
    #25843620 - 02/28/19 03:10 PM (2 months, 23 days ago)

I've let them sit for 5-9 days in the past after PC w/o problem.


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Edited by ShaperDreaming (02/28/19 03:11 PM)


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OfflineVibe_Enthusiast
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: ShaperDreaming]
    #25843642 - 02/28/19 03:20 PM (2 months, 23 days ago)

Well like I said, mines going to be at least 4+ weeks lol. I should have waited. I just didnt think big picture. I just wanted to get it out of the way because I had downtime and prepping grain sucks


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OfflineShaperDreaming
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: Vibe_Enthusiast]
    #25843650 - 02/28/19 03:22 PM (2 months, 23 days ago)

Honestly, if you're not using the jars between now and then, just let it sit. Do a thurough examination of it before inoculation, and if it looks clean... go for it? I'd mostly be worried about evaporation after that much time and having dry grains, can you put them somewhere air-tight-ish?


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Edited by ShaperDreaming (02/28/19 03:23 PM)


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OfflineVibe_Enthusiast
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: ShaperDreaming]
    #25843668 - 02/28/19 03:28 PM (2 months, 23 days ago)

That's really my concern is them drying out. I guess I could go buy a tote to store them in. If it means it'd help in this situation


Edited by Vibe_Enthusiast (02/28/19 03:29 PM)


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OfflineShaperDreaming
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: Vibe_Enthusiast]
    #25843713 - 02/28/19 03:54 PM (2 months, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Vibe_Enthusiast said:
That's really my concern is them drying out. I guess I could go buy a tote to store them in. If it means it'd help in this situation



:shrug:

Only one way to find out? Buy it mono-tub size so you can reuse it later :wink:


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OfflineMildlyInsane
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: Vibe_Enthusiast]
    #25843726 - 02/28/19 04:01 PM (2 months, 23 days ago)

I just used some jars of WBS that had sat for about a month. They didn't get very far before contaminating, but that could just be from me being a noob when it comes to G2G.

But, I was also just reading some stuff in the thread linked below, about PC sterilization only really providing a "window of opportunity" for mycelium to colonize, before bacterial endospores or other potential surviving organisms gain a foothold.

Sounds risky to use old grain, but I'm still new to this hobby and learning stuff.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25840271/fpart/5#25840271

EDIT* I suppose you could always re PC them before use?


Edited by MildlyInsane (02/28/19 04:02 PM)


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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: MildlyInsane]
    #25843743 - 02/28/19 04:06 PM (2 months, 23 days ago)

I've weighed out oats before sterilization and over 30 days after and there was no difference in weight loss. I sterilize my oats for 2 hours at 15-20 PSI and left them covered with foil.


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OfflineShaperDreaming
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: stareatclouds]
    #25843756 - 02/28/19 04:15 PM (2 months, 23 days ago)

Quote:

stareatclouds said:
I've weighed out oats before sterilization and over 30 days after and there was no difference in weight loss.



So, you're saying you've safely left grains out for 30 days after PC and used them w/o contam or stalling from dryness?


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Edited by ShaperDreaming (02/28/19 04:15 PM)


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Invisiblestareatclouds
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: ShaperDreaming]
    #25843775 - 02/28/19 04:23 PM (2 months, 23 days ago)

They didn't have visible contams on their own. I don't have meaningful results as to their viability as I used iffy cultures on the older jars. Definitely had some jars perform well, while others didn't do so hot, but didn't contam (senesced cultures). I'm not recommending doing this or saying it's fine.

People definitely run grain for 3 hours. You can just do 2 hours and run it again for another hour a month later if you're concerned.

This is one of those topics where everyone repeats the same information without having firsthand experience. People quote the "small window to colonize" but have no science to back whether every endospore is killed or not (and I'm not picking a side either way). Using jars immediately is best practice. There's some leeway in waiting, but too many variables play into how far you can stretch it, and nothing concrete exists, so proceed with caution.

Do it and report back. It's not like your life is over if it doesn't work out.


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OfflineShaperDreaming
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: stareatclouds]
    #25843780 - 02/28/19 04:26 PM (2 months, 23 days ago)

Quote:

stareatclouds said:
Do it and report back. It's not like your life is over if it doesn't work out.



That's where I'm at with my thoughts.

Also, good to know about 30 days out. I assume with properly built jars this shouldn't be a problem.


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Offlinesinisterminister7
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: ShaperDreaming]
    #25843802 - 02/28/19 04:32 PM (2 months, 23 days ago)

I wouldn't use them personally. You can never get grains 100% sterile, all you can do is pc them to kill enough contaminants to give your myc a fighting chance to colonize. It really is just a race against the clock. I wouldn't waste a good agar wedge on old grains when I could simply run a fresh batch and give myself a chance. Sure, you might get lucky, but I don't like failure


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OfflineBeefSupremeJr
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: sinisterminister7]
    #25843809 - 02/28/19 04:34 PM (2 months, 23 days ago)

Used jars that I had in the fridge, cling wrapped, for over a month.  No issues that I can remember.


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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: sinisterminister7]
    #25843872 - 02/28/19 04:54 PM (2 months, 23 days ago)

Quote:

sinisterminister7 said:
I wouldn't use them personally. You can never get grains 100% sterile, all you can do is pc them to kill enough contaminants to give your myc a fighting chance to colonize. It really is just a race against the clock. I wouldn't waste a good agar wedge on old grains when I could simply run a fresh batch and give myself a chance. Sure, you might get lucky, but I don't like failure




This is absolutely not correct. Why do you think that? Have you tried it yourself?

I have on several occasions sterilized grain jars, for not more than 1 to 1.5 hours, which have last months (and probably would have last indefinitely) at room temperature. Usually with foil over the lid, and in a plastic bag, otherwise they tend to dry out in my climate.

The sterilization time will depend on the pressure cooker and heat/gas transfer situation, but in my opinion, many people here overdo it.


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OfflineBeefSupremeJr
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: Pinback]
    #25843899 - 02/28/19 05:09 PM (2 months, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Pinback said:
Quote:

sinisterminister7 said:
I wouldn't use them personally. You can never get grains 100% sterile, all you can do is pc them to kill enough contaminants to give your myc a fighting chance to colonize. It really is just a race against the clock. I wouldn't waste a good agar wedge on old grains when I could simply run a fresh batch and give myself a chance. Sure, you might get lucky, but I don't like failure




This is absolutely not correct. Why do you think that? Have you tried it yourself?

I have on several occasions sterilized grain jars, for not more than 1 to 1.5 hours, which have last months (and probably would have last indefinitely) at room temperature. Usually with foil over the lid, and in a plastic bag, otherwise they tend to dry out in my climate.

The sterilization time will depend on the pressure cooker and heat/gas transfer situation, but in my opinion, many people here overdo it.




It absolutely is correct, apparently.  Mad season just finished setting us straight in  another thread just this morning. Not saying I don’t agree with you on the rest,

Quote:

Mad Season said:
FWIW, IME, grains overridden with endospores aren't easy to work with. The PC reduces a lot of them, but it doesn't kill them all. True sterilization is something like 1 particle per 1000000000? It's really just probabilities. THere's a reason why people throughout shroomery history preach that you have to inoculate grains immediately, and jars after a couple weeks should just be trashed and restarted.

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Organic grain often has endospores added as an alternative to pesticide. I have found with such grain that often a single cycle is not enough and that bacteria can recover and become noticable in as little as a few days or as long as a few weeks as two weeks. When I started doing muda style bottles it was strange because you could see the bacteria pop up around some of the grains like little satellites. Became suddenly very easy to see what was happening.

When spawning such grain its my experience that you often cannot smell them, yet they will inhibit recovery enough for molds to move in. Sometimes a very high spawn ratio could help but not always. My solution was a two part sterilization which did the best job.

Also its worth noting that I stopped overnight soaking two years ago.



Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Quote:

Wydue Wanano said:
This is the first mention I've ever heard of "invisible contams." If an endospore is so damaged it can't reproduce, isn't it essentially dead? What effect do these have on growth if they are not reproducing?




Endospores germinate into bacteria, the bacteria reproduces and some of them become endospores when conditions deteriorate. A damaged endospore is perfectly capable of recovering but it does take time. When we "sterilize" we actually don't kill all the endospores. You would need to run an 8 hour PC cycle to do that. We damage them enough to provide a "window with which to colonize". But there is always a possibility that a couple can recover and start problems. Usually this means poor to no colonization of some grains which are then easy pickings for mold.

Most of the time I doubt people even realize this is happening. But it does. To fully kill all endospores you need to go to pretty extreme lengths. Incidentally this is why GLC is a terrible idea.



Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
'Sterilizing' for 90 minutes gives a window of opportunity to get your grains colonized before surviving organisms can get a foothold.  It's not absolute sterilization, which would take up to 24 hours and ruin the grains.
RR



Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

but since a pressure cook at 90 min kills all forms of mold and bacterial




Says who?  My experience shows otherwise.
RR




I mean there's many others, and I've had many conversations with people about this. I still stand by the fact that a dirty ass grain like say popcorn which harbors more endospores is an unnecessary risk.




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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: BeefSupremeJr]
    #25843945 - 02/28/19 05:25 PM (2 months, 23 days ago)

Thanks for your reply, but I disagree with that. I suggest that anyone who doubts this try it.

Sterilization in the microbiological sense means that ALL living organisms are eliminated. It is either sterile or not. No probabilities. There is plenty to read about this in books, academic papers, patents... I have not seen it disputed anywhere really, except here.


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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: Pinback]
    #25844028 - 02/28/19 05:56 PM (2 months, 23 days ago)

Nobody debates with sterilization is. People debate whether our jars are truly sterile. This isn't a debate with an obvious answer that satisfies all parties.

Different grains have different endospore counts and bacteria present. Different prep methods will result in more endospore germination and creation. I haven't seen anything definitive showing x hours at x PSI for x volume of grain kills everything that would be useful for our purposes.

And your jars appearing fine without pulsating green doesn't mean they're sterile or as healthy/viable as they were a few hours after the PC cycle. I'd love to see documented grows with old jars and the tubs they produced.

The optimal play is PC your grains for 90-120 minutes at 15PSI and inoculate as soon as possible with healthy mycelium. If you want to push it beyond that, go for it. It's your grain. Definitely log the relevant metrics and post the results. I'd love to see actual trials with this shit, even though the variance involved ensures our results will be different.


Edited by stareatclouds (02/28/19 06:07 PM)


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InvisiblebodhisattaM
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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: stareatclouds]
    #25844062 - 02/28/19 06:12 PM (2 months, 23 days ago)

:whathesaid:
No one has logged this in any manner let alone something scientific. Everything is someone's story. The less experience people have the longer it seems they're able to anecdotally let things go and be just fine.


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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: bodhisatta] * 1
    #25844105 - 02/28/19 06:28 PM (2 months, 23 days ago)

This is my story :typing:

Rye jar with SFD 120min 18 PSI about a month later and 4-5shakes later Nothing visible at all. This is a test jar.




I personally truly believe this rye in the jar is sterilized, but I leave room for other 'personal' experiences as well.


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Re: PC'd Grain - Life Span? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25844106 - 02/28/19 06:29 PM (2 months, 23 days ago)

Wasn’t trying to ruffle your feathers pard.  Just learned this myself. Although not documented, I am sure rr has his reasons for saying it.  The man has literally watched spores germinate in real time under a microscope. 

Ima go with rr’s decades of xp on this one.  I don’t like risks, particularly when unnecessary.


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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Mushroom Cultivation

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