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Why the obsession with ego death? * 5
    #25841321 -

Something I'm seeing about is a tendency for newer trippers to become fixated with the idea of ego death. I've seen the same thing before with newer DMT users becoming fixated with the idea of break through.

These terms don't seem to mean a great deal in the wide world of tripping. We know that if we take enough psychedelics we will see visions, whether or not we exist in those visions and to what extent doesn't seem to be important. Destroying your current perceived reality and moving into the void isn't something anyone else can tell you happened to you. You know if it happened. The question is pretty pointless. The level to which you journey is only comparable to your own normal state of mind anyway.

There's no merit badge for smearing your consciousness across the galaxy.

Maybe I'm missing something here?


--------------------
We are the music makers, the dreamers of dreams.

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Northerner] * 3
    #25841331 -

They just want to brag. 90% of them haven't experienced true ego death anyway

Last night I read a lot of trip reports and not a single one was even level 4 and all of them said it was ego death :shrug:


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The eyes are useless when the mind is blind

:trippinballs: Candyflipping :omgawesome:

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Northerner] * 1
    #25841339 -

yeah I noticed the same thing, made a thread to share actual ego death experience I had and what I've learned the years following: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25836317

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: twigglez] * 1
    #25841381 -

What turmeric is to Facebook memes, Ego Death is to tripping n00bs.

YES there is such a thing as Ego Death and NO, 999/1000x its NOT Ego Death but merely ego dissolution.

Ego Dissolutoion is part of your brain ceasing to function because of a high dose of drugs.

Ego Death is the sequence of mind reboots that follows having worked through your life issues and your birth traumas.

Almost all trippers avoid dealing with life issues and lettuing the nuclear fire of bad trips rage out, and because of this they will never have their Ego death run that propels them into the transpersonal realm.

Any report that doesnt includes the experiences of LITERALLY DYING and LITERALLY BEING BORN in the most profound sense is not Ego death.

IMMINENT TOTAL ANNIHILATION ON ALL LEVELS followed by a PSYCHOSPIRITUAL REBIRTH.

It took me 25 years of tripping before the Ego Death run finally started.
:strangelove:
Now I'm thrown clear.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: twigglez] * 10
    #25841415 -

it seems to be about acceptance,
so much alienation these days.

membership at the shroomery is one thing, but adoration of one's new divinity is sublime.

I think we take turns flashing our wisdom at eachother and if we don't have any we just flash our drugs or flaunt our debauchery.

ego, take note, you are one debauched son of a gun.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: redgreenvines] * 2
    #25841444 -

redgreenvines said:
adoration of one's new divinity is sublime..


People here would literally fart in the face of Jesus Christ if he posted here.

If any Egos are out to be worshipped, you picked the wrong site, this site's audience is quite irreverent - which makes a great mirror. The Shroomery is where the awesome peeps go to be thought of as a c*nt while discussing their life issues ^_^


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Asante]
    #25841462 -

Im one of the noobs that are interested in ego death and i can share my reason.
I have read way to much and almost been obsessed with psychedelics after i tried ayahuasca.
My intention is healing from my depression. So i have tried to educate myself as mush as possible so i can do it as safe as possible. And as all of you know, psychedelics is something else. Interesting stuff.

From everything i have read it seems like the “mystical experience/ego death” is very effective for depression. In the psilocybin research the people that had a mystical experience was “cured” from their depression. The word `reborn` Is often used to describe the experience. And i “think” i would like that. But it also sounds terrifying...

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Asante] * 1
    #25841464 -

Asante said:
What turmeric is to Facebook memes, Ego Death is to tripping n00bs.

YES there is such a thing as Ego Death and NO, 999/1000x its NOT Ego Death but merely ego dissolution.

Ego Dissolutoion is part of your brain ceasing to function because of a high dose of drugs.

Ego Death is the sequence of mind reboots that follows having worked through your life issues and your birth traumas.

Almost all trippers avoid dealing with life issues and lettuing the nuclear fire of bad trips rage out, and because of this they will never have their Ego death run that propels them into the transpersonal realm.

Any report that doesnt includes the experiences of LITERALLY DYING and LITERALLY BEING BORN in the most profound sense is not Ego death.

IMMINENT TOTAL ANNIHILATION ON ALL LEVELS followed by a PSYCHOSPIRITUAL REBIRTH.

It took me 25 years of tripping before the Ego Death run finally started.
:strangelove:
Now I'm thrown clear.


Would you consider the full 5-meo experience ego death?

Ego dissolution for me starts with melting into the hallucinations or the headspace, leaving my body and sense of self behind. Then becoming one with all existence, devoid of any personal thought or relation to my humanism.

The two times Ive experienced what Id call ego death, it almost seemed like a blackout looking back. Leading up to it, I went so deep I believed the "me" back in reality would forever be mentally crippled and estranged in normal reality. I let go and came to peace with whatever was to happen, and the period after is a blur. Once I fully gave up control it's like reality drifted away and I really died. Time was irrelevant, I don't really remember anything and it lasted 30-60min. After "coming back" I had completely lost my fear of death, and felt a part of the transient nature of everything.

The ego death experiences have only come during periods of deep meditation, after meditating 1 hour daily for a few years. It's not dose dependent, Ive had handfuls of DMT breakthroughs with no ego death, and ego death while meditating after smoking cannabis.

Some are stricter in their definitions and see ego death as a more permanent thing and closer to enlightenment. I see it more as a temporary severing of the string that connects "you" to anything you'd recognize as reality, possibly resulting in a new and stronger connection to something deeper.

I don't know that ego death is achievable with psychedelics alone.

Edited by feevers (02/27/19 06:57 PM)

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: feevers] * 1
    #25841486 -

feevers said:
Would you consider the full 5-meo experience ego death?


Never. Ego Death is a sequence of progressively more complete sesions that follows having worked through your life & birth issues. Its not a drug effect. It can happen on psychedelics, on dissociatives, during meditation and during life crises - it doesnt require a drug or a specific drug, nor a dosage.

If you are ready for ego death, 0.5 gram shrooms can take you there. When you are not ready for it, not even 420 grams of fresh cubies can take you there.

Ego death is a phase in your life development, a bonus level, if you are lucky and do the hard work to get there. It usually happens to people who had a hard time growing up.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: feevers]
    #25841498 -

My favorite thing about psychedelics and dissociatives is when I experience unity. And with dissociatives its never hard to let go either.

"I am the universe" "I am you is he is she is me is that tree over there"
Having thoughts like that on shrooms can be scary at first, but once I let go its the best thing ever.

And agreed feevers. The few times ive gone deeper than ive ever gone on shrooms its like I just went in to a trance after experiencing untiy. The I would come back and every thing in life would just feel right. The world would feel like my home again and I would have love for everything in existance.
I feel like thats the ultimate message of fungus.


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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: trvptamine] * 2
    #25841531 -

Probably because of trash articles like this:

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/j5zqwp/competitive-psychedelic-users-are-chasing-ego-death-and-losing-their-sense-of-self


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My Shoebox Factory Beginner's Tek | Shoebox Assembly Tek | Methodology/teks I use | How I Store Bulk Items

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: sopp1e]
    #25841572 -

sopp1e said:
Im one of the noobs that are interested in ego death and i can share my reason.
I have read way to much and almost been obsessed with psychedelics after i tried ayahuasca.
My intention is healing from my depression. So i have tried to educate myself as mush as possible so i can do it as safe as possible. And as all of you know, psychedelics is something else. Interesting stuff.

From everything i have read it seems like the “mystical experience/ego death” is very effective for depression. In the psilocybin research the people that had a mystical experience was “cured” from their depression. The word `reborn` Is often used to describe the experience. And i “think” i would like that. But it also sounds terrifying...



ok, nube, the term "ego death" is not a ratified scientific term, but the fact that the effects of psychedelics really do shake things up in the mind with some kind of lasting after glow is the thing that pertains to your healing interests.

it's not an accurate hammer but neither is anything else in psychology or psychiatry except associative memory support or mood blocking, both of which can be approached somewhat directly with drugs and training efforts.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: sopp1e] * 2
    #25841598 -

sopp1e said:
Im one of the noobs that are interested in ego death and i can share my reason.
I have read way to much and almost been obsessed with psychedelics after i tried ayahuasca.
My intention is healing from my depression. So i have tried to educate myself as mush as possible so i can do it as safe as possible. And as all of you know, psychedelics is something else. Interesting stuff.

From everything i have read it seems like the “mystical experience/ego death” is very effective for depression. In the psilocybin research the people that had a mystical experience was “cured” from their depression. The word `reborn` Is often used to describe the experience. And i “think” i would like that. But it also sounds terrifying...


There is no secret, no particular transformative experience that comes from drugs. There's no name for what you seek.

Be mindful of what you feel and think, then try the same on psychedelics.

It's just you man. The path is inside.


--------------------
We are the music makers, the dreamers of dreams.

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Northerner] * 2
    #25841603 -

My ego is more dead than yours!


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IT WAS ALL A DREAM

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25841627 -

I think that there is a percentage of young people that become interested in ego death simply because they are young. A young person typically does not have much experience in the "real world" and so, if they are genuinely curious about the mystery of life, they may pursue something which is foreign. The psychedelic experience is not only reported to be foreign, but concept dissolving - life changing/affirming. For someone who may have grown up in a fairly traditional model in which all they know is their family and whatever schooling they've undergone, I can imagine why something that would seem supernatural to be appealing. Not to mention that most contemporary cultures don't seem to have rights of passage for young people to enter into adulthood. This might be a surrogate for asserting their own autonomy.

Although, I do think that there are people who will attempt ego death for bragging rights alone.


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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25841635 -

Well when I experienced it I had no idea of what was happening. Something the size of Texas came in from the cosmos and engulfed me. I was literally swimming through pearls and jewels. No sense of self just everything seemingly existing as it always is. It feels like a flowing current that you have no desire to resist.
As far as destination, lol the mushroom does with you what it wants, especially the higher doses.
  I was tripping on 6g of cubes when I saw this pearled dome in the distance. I recognized it as a place of satori, I asked my guide/pilot "Are we going there again?" It gave me a very clear answer, "No, you've been there. We are not going there this time. This time we're going over here."
  Holy shit, I felt a 90degree turn with no loss of momentum. I felt it in my neck.

  Now, out of the many trips I've gone on I have only been to this state 3 times. It's not something that happens commonly to me but when it does i feel like I'm purging useless, destructive thoughts and even behaviors.
  I have to put my money on this state not being substance or dosage related. More in line with, the mushroom doesn't give you what you want but what you need.
  I don't know, I understand that people read reports and become enchanted with the grand tales but I don't think you can force such an experience. You sure as fuck can try though but I don't think it's a healthy goal.

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Northerner] * 1
    #25841637 -

I see a lot of it too. I think ego death ends up being a way to say that you've gotten the most out of tripping, which some people might take pride in. It's also a way of gatekeeping, claiming that your experience really got to the truth of it, whereas another person didn't do it right.

I've never taken a crazy dose, so I probably haven't experienced ego death. I have experienced moments that I think about nearly every day, however, and that were far more intense and different than anything I had encountered before and to some extent after.

Because these drugs deal with the mind, and since everything in our mind comes from a somewhat unique somewhat shared grouping of experiences and memories, I don't think it's good to focus so hard on reaching some kind of claimed 'end-point'. I think it would be much more interesting to forgo a lot of the psychedelic jargon and get back to what's really going on. Even a small dose of the lysergic can promote incredible changes in consciousness, and sometimes there's value to managing the dosage so that you can still come out of it and figure out what you just went through without pulling your hair out.

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Northerner]
    #25841643 -

I can't relate to Asante's specific definition of ego death, I think it's a somewhat broad term. The first time I heard of the concept was in relation to DMT so I'm going to speak on my experience with DMT "ego death".

I can't imagine having such an experience through meditation or any less powerful force. Obviously the ego is not permanently dying, but during the breakthrough you are essentially dead. There is no recollection of self, so all the drama and pain and pride in one's ego disappears completely. It's extremely refreshing to feel freed from your self for a moment. If we are truly beings with a spiritual existence outside of our bodies, I'd say DMT gives a glimpse at that ego-less existence of pure energy/consciousness.

I never sought a merit badge from having the experience, it's entirely rewarding in itself. Like gold trickling through your fingers, it's a treasured memory/experience to behold internally. In that sense, it has given me a tangible, lasting anti-depressant effect anytime I recall the experience. Because I was completely responsible for personally discovering and extracting mine, it feels even more significant to my personal development.

It doesn't destroy your ego in a lasting way; there's plenty of times since the experience that I've become absorbed into my ego and emotions. Since then I've re-evaluated the importance of ego death. I think that egos are necessary parts of the human psyche if we want to operate at a modern level. Pure ego-less existence is commendable but impractical. Still, I think a healthy handful of ego death experiences does wonders for mental and personal development. I know I would be a completely different person today without those breakthroughs, which are really just opportunities to reflect on one's path.

Edited by Icon (02/27/19 03:28 PM)

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Northerner]
    #25841662 -

Northerner said:
sopp1e said:
Im one of the noobs that are interested in ego death and i can share my reason.
I have read way to much and almost been obsessed with psychedelics after i tried ayahuasca.
My intention is healing from my depression. So i have tried to educate myself as mush as possible so i can do it as safe as possible. And as all of you know, psychedelics is something else. Interesting stuff.

From everything i have read it seems like the “mystical experience/ego death” is very effective for depression. In the psilocybin research the people that had a mystical experience was “cured” from their depression. The word `reborn` Is often used to describe the experience. And i “think” i would like that. But it also sounds terrifying...


There is no secret, no particular transformative experience that comes from drugs. There's no name for what you seek.

Be mindful of what you feel and think, then try the same on psychedelics.

It's just you man. The path is inside.


There is no secret but drugs can cause a serious change in people. From psychological to physical. And yes yes you can take a long trip to maybe get to this state but why not use the tools available? If want to go to China I don't have to walk...

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: LosTresOjos] * 1
    #25841766 -

LosTresOjos said:
If want to go to China I don't have to walk...


But you miss a whole lot along the way and aren't as strong once you get there... just to keep with your metaphor

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: feevers] * 1
    #25841965 -

I'm seeing it again in this thread despite the OP.

When one experiences ego death there is no I. For all intents and purposes you literally die. You don't communicate and you don't think. You feel and that is all. You can see but only from a minds eye perspective that looks all directions at once, but that is kind of irrelevant as there is no time or way to remember infinity against itself.

"I had an amazing OBE trip with amazing visions" is not ego death. This is quite likely a "break through" experience. But that's not what all the cool peeps are chasing these days. That was last years fad.

Ego death is something that happens rarely to people, and may have ongoing negative or positive consequences, or both. It's not something to aspire to achieve, it's not an achievement. It doesn't fix problems. It doesn't do anything. It's not even required for the outcomes that people are searching for. People can have drastic self realizations without smashing their brains to the point they remember dying.

Reading through this thread I'm beginning to better understand how popular culture has begun to idolize this type of experience. The cycle repeats.


--------------------
We are the music makers, the dreamers of dreams.

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Northerner]
    #25842006 -

The ego never stays dead, it always comes back.

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Northerner]
    #25842090 -

"chasing" an ego death will very likely keep you from ever experiencing one.

It's not like DMT where you chase a breakthrough. You can take the hit and feel things start to get progressively weirder and weirder and be like "Is this a breakthrough?", "Is THIS a breakthrough?", and then smash into hyperspace and say "Why, yes. This is a breakthrough."

if you're asking "is this an ego death?", you're already heading west when true ego death is east.

drugs can give you a glimpse, meditation gives that glimpse staying power.

Edited by feevers (02/27/19 06:56 PM)

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Northerner]
    #25842091 -

Northerner said:
Something I'm seeing about is a tendency for newer trippers to become fixated with the idea of ego death. I've seen the same thing before with newer DMT users becoming fixated with the idea of break through.


You didn't want the ultimate experience when you were new?

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: kabel] * 2
    #25842107 -

"the ultimate" is a marketing term
being accustomed to advertising probably drives the whole acquisitive side of this.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: kabel] * 1
    #25842117 -

kabel said:
Northerner said:
Something I'm seeing about is a tendency for newer trippers to become fixated with the idea of ego death. I've seen the same thing before with newer DMT users becoming fixated with the idea of break through.


You didn't want the ultimate experience when you were new?


I dunno man, we didn't have internet or mobile phones and stuff back then telling us stuff like this, that we should be aiming for x, y and z because that's the ultimate. We just used to eat/smoke the drugs to get wasted and have fun. Slowly but surely we pushed the envelope anyway and hit wild country, but that wasn't the destination on the map. It was always about the journey.

The "ultimate" psychedelic experiences in my life aren't the heaviest, knock out, nor OBE type experiences. The most euphoric and revealing experiences have always been on moderate doses with excellent set and setting.


--------------------
We are the music makers, the dreamers of dreams.

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25842375 -

redgreenvines said:
"the ultimate" is a marketing term
being accustomed to advertising probably drives the whole acquisitive side of this.


What would you prefer to call it? Heroic?

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Northerner]
    #25842391 -

Northerner said:
I dunno man, we didn't have internet or mobile phones and stuff back then telling us stuff like this, that we should be aiming for x, y and z because that's the ultimate. We just used to eat/smoke the drugs to get wasted and have fun. Slowly but surely we pushed the envelope anyway and hit wild country, but that wasn't the destination on the map. It was always about the journey.


Come on, you didn't have Terence McKenna back then saying you should take 5 dried grams in silent darkness?

Quote:
The "ultimate" psychedelic experiences in my life aren't the heaviest, knock out, nor OBE type experiences. The most euphoric and revealing experiences have always been on moderate doses with excellent set and setting.


I think this whole thread is a bunch of old guys trying to be "one up" on the young guys. I guess it's true what guy above said about the egos always coming back, lol

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Northerner]
    #25842409 -

Northerner said:
I've seen the same thing before with newer DMT users becoming fixated with the idea of break through.



I'll agree light and moderate trips have their place, but are you claiming there isn't a world of difference between a breakthrough and a sub-breakthrough experience?

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: kabel] * 1
    #25842458 -

This thread is about the current fad towards people trying to confirm that they have had, or trying to experience ego death. Same as last year when "break through" was trendy and we were seeing the same questions about that in every fourth topic. I was very clear in the OP.

I hadn't even heard of McKenna until I came to this site, nor Leary, nor anyone like that. :shrug:

Indeed breakthrough experiences are incredible. It's not something I like to do much as it's a bit of a kick in the pants. Liking moderate doses and getting more from them is hardly a one up on anyone man, I really don't know where you pulled that from. No one was knocking anyone else down in any way either. I don't even know why I'm defending the community against that meritless accusation.


--------------------
We are the music makers, the dreamers of dreams.

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Northerner] * 1
    #25842484 -

When I had first started tripping I used to refer as minor ego dissolution as ego death and I used to intend on reaching this "ego death" every time I tripped. It wasn't until a few grams of mushrooms literally made me forget where I was, who I was, and what I was, that made me understand ego death. All I know is that night I died and was reborn as my truest self, too bad it happened in front of a crowd of paramedics and police officers.. Point is, I think the obsession is curiosity. Who doesn't want a glimpse of whats next? Now do these people really know what it is there asking for? That's another question, but I'd answer that no one does.


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Step 1: Stare at this for 30 seconds

Step 2: Look at this after following step one

Step 3: Enjoy the mini trip :trippinbawelz:

Edited by LiquidVisions (02/27/19 10:23 PM)

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: LiquidVisions] * 3
    #25842486 -

The term "ego death" is so problematic.  Sigmund Freud was a coke-head from 100 years ago.  He fantasized about fucking his own mother.  But his ideas about how the mind works determine the language we use to interpret tripping?  He didnt even know anything about how the brain really works.  He lived before brain imaging.  His concepts are crude and inaccurate.  Why are we forced to interpret the psychedelic experience through his lens?  Has your super-ego ever died?  What about your id? Fuck Freud and the concept of the ego.

I see it like this: when you take a high dose of psychedelics the functioning of your brain is affected to the point that normal processes of self-awareness are disrupted. You no longer use words or focus on yourself .  You no longer process anything beyond the immediate, raw experience of "right now".  You just "are".  It is wonderful and healing.  It can also be very shocking and scary, especially if you try to fight it.

Why must we put terms to it or try to understand it via Freud?  There are no words or concepts during that time.  Categorizing it and systematizing what it means... these things do not come from the deep psychedelic state.  They come from the non-psychedelic state and are alien to what they attempt to describe.

So I say, lets abandon the term "ego death" and all the boasting and value judgments that accompany it.  More deep trips; less Freud.  Peace.


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IT WAS ALL A DREAM

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Northerner] * 1
    #25842498 -

Northerner said:
I'm seeing it again in this thread despite the OP.

When one experiences ego death there is no I. For all intents and purposes you literally die. You don't communicate and you don't think. You feel and that is all. You can see but only from a minds eye perspective that looks all directions at once, but that is kind of irrelevant as there is no time or way to remember infinity against itself.

"I had an amazing OBE trip with amazing visions" is not ego death. This is quite likely a "break through" experience. But that's not what all the cool peeps are chasing these days. That was last years fad.

Ego death is something that happens rarely to people, and may have ongoing negative or positive consequences, or both. It's not something to aspire to achieve, it's not an achievement. It doesn't fix problems. It doesn't do anything. It's not even required for the outcomes that people are searching for. People can have drastic self realizations without smashing their brains to the point they remember dying.

Reading through this thread I'm beginning to better understand how popular culture has begun to idolize this type of experience. The cycle repeats.



It's like Bigfoot. People are intrigued with something that they know deep down doesn't exist but they hear stories so they go out looking anyway


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.

It's just a shot away..

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Grey Fox] * 1
    #25842500 -

E g o d e a t h
8 letters
2 words
You have this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id,_ego_and_super-ego#Ego
Then this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_death

Also this:

You guys are trying to describe an experience that's 99% subjective.

I wish you gods speed sirs ; D


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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: korgoth] * 1
    #25842688 -

only true ego death you will ever experience is the real one when you finally do cease to exist.

but i think problem is that people were told what trip should be like. and many, many people fall into trap of thinking they are norm, that everyone should have experiences like they have.

and than when you put into equation "psychedelic gurus" and throw word like heroic and divine and spiritual and what not, it does sound like challenge.

its subjective. to me even lvl number are silly as fuck.

imo


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Looping our reflections, our obsessions draw us in
Fix and fixation, no sentience beyond

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Northerner]
    #25842707 -

Northerner said:
Liking moderate doses and getting more from them is hardly a one up on anyone man, I really don't know where you pulled that from. No one was knocking anyone else down in any way either. I don't even know why I'm defending the community against that meritless accusation.


Meritless? Right after you made your post a bunch of guys chimed in saying how hardly anyone else was really getting where "they got." You're one up is a bit more subtle, and how you get more out of less through your set and setting. It's cool though

Edited by kabel (02/28/19 04:00 AM)

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: kabel] * 1
    #25842723 -

Maybe you're just not feeling what trying to be communicated? That's okay too.


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We are the music makers, the dreamers of dreams.

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Northerner]
    #25842767 -

Northerner said:
Maybe you're just not feeling what trying to be communicated? That's okay too.


Haha maybe, I find all the microdosing threads more faddish

Edited by kabel (02/28/19 06:02 AM)

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: kabel]
    #25842788 -

kabel said:
redgreenvines said:
"the ultimate" is a marketing term
being accustomed to advertising probably drives the whole acquisitive side of this.


What would you prefer to call it? Heroic?


inappropriate waste of ambition.

i.e. daily, moment by moment efforts at awakening will make your tripping better and vice versa.
it's an effort for benefit involvement, not a purchasing decision.

try as you might you cannot acquire the ultimate, by definition, it is merely an hypnotic marketing term, or a sports gambling term.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25842790 -

Northener, you can remove the "?" from the title, i think they get it now ; )


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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25842793 -

I feel like a lot of people don't know what it is, even when/after experiencing it. Ego death is like what assante said itz a progression through layers. You leave behind these "parts of you" in segments. That's at least how it has always seemed upon reflection of it. Aside from a strong mushroom experience  DMT seemed to be the only times it seemed to happen. You leave behind past and experiences and you just "are" but its not a you its just  "it".. You can force ego death with drugs but meditation can invoke those experiences too.
Personally have not experienced a meditation induced "Ego death" but my father has told me about times when he used to meditate he would have outer body experiences or completely lose his sense of self and being human.


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Edited by SonicTitan (02/28/19 06:37 AM)

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Grey Fox]
    #25842796 -

Grey Fox said:
The term "ego death" is so problematic.  Sigmund Freud was a coke-head from 100 years ago.  He fantasized about fucking his own mother.  But his ideas about how the mind works determine the language we use to interpret tripping?  He didnt even know anything about how the brain really works.  He lived before brain imaging.  His concepts are crude and inaccurate.  Why are we forced to interpret the psychedelic experience through his lens?  Has your super-ego ever died?  What about your id? Fuck Freud and the concept of the ego.

I see it like this: when you take a high dose of psychedelics the functioning of your brain is affected to the point that normal processes of self-awareness are disrupted. You no longer use words or focus on yourself .  You no longer process anything beyond the immediate, raw experience of "right now".  You just "are".  It is wonderful and healing.  It can also be very shocking and scary, especially if you try to fight it.

Why must we put terms to it or try to understand it via Freud?  There are no words or concepts during that time.  Categorizing it and systematizing what it means... these things do not come from the deep psychedelic state.  They come from the non-psychedelic state and are alien to what they attempt to describe.

So I say, lets abandon the term "ego death" and all the boasting and value judgments that accompany it.  More deep trips; less Freud.  Peace.



Fucking nailed that one

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Bph] * 1
    #25842819 -

Personally, I've never had an ego death. It hasn't been something that I've tried to provoke nor asked for. I take my dose, and I let the mushroom do the work from there. I don't force anything, nor fight anything. I am there for the ride. I don't like the thought of being completely disengaged from the "real world", but I have come to love dipping my toes in the strange abyss.

I'm able to let the mushrooms take me, closing my eyes and not feeling my body.. almost just feeling like a thought being spread around the air. It's hard to explain.. which I really don't need to get to because I know what it is and that's all that really matters anyway.

But I like still being grounded, as to where I can come back and think about it for a second and know its extremely foreign, close my eyes and let it do its thing again. Its extremely blissful.

I feel like a lot of people on here have an extreme ego about how much they take and how they were nothing but a Cosmo and awareness and whatever. Which is awesome, maybe one day the mushroom will want to show me that. But the reason behind i take them is to incorporate the information that I can translate into real life and heighten my quality of life.

I like being able to break down the problem, and adding more into my arsenal. Sounds more appealing than being completely mindfucked and can't explain what happened nor digest it to be able to incorporate it into my every day life.

Regardless of how we look at things, this is our 'sober reality', and these are the rules we've got to play by for our own survival. I don't beleive it's right, and I know were not here to work 9-5, but it's the way things have cultivated sadly.

I'm okay with what I do and how I take it. I don't need anyone telling me that I need to take more, take less, take it in a different setting. I listen, digest, learn, and use that for my own benefits to help build a stronger mindset and different awareness of life on this very, very strange rock in the middle of the Universe.


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:greyalien:



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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Vibe_Enthusiast]
    #25842948 -

I had my first ego death experience a couple of weeks ago on 10g penis envy uncut and it was one of the most beautiful things I've ever experienced.

I had been chasing it for a while.

I would love to experience it again and I'm sure I will. It really put things into perspective. I totally dissolved into an infinite soup of pixels and was gifted with being shown the truly important things in my life. The things that contribute most to my own personal happiness. It was initially difficult when I first dissolved but I soon relaxed into it and it became pure unadulterated joy. It was an incredibly important experience.

I guess people chase it because people read things such as the above and see how significant the experience is to people and so naturally want that for themselves.

To be honest though I've been reaping the benefits from psychedelics for eight months through just getting ego dissolution and not full ego death.


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Throw down your umbilical noose so I can climb right back

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25842952 -

redgreenvines said:
inappropriate waste of ambition.


I think that's bullshit. Peak experience and dose are certainly not one-one related, but they are positively correlated, and why aim for something other thank peak. Or wait, is "peak" a marketing term too? Do you look at a mountain and think, "I want to climb half way up that"?

Quote:
i.e. daily, moment by moment efforts at awakening will make your tripping better and vice versa.


I'll agree with that.

Quote:
try as you might you cannot acquire the ultimate, by definition, it is merely an hypnotic marketing term, or a sports gambling term.


https://www.dictionary.com/browse/ultimate?s=t

The last, furthest, farthest? Sure you can, or at least some can, and certainly for themselves.

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: SonicTitan]
    #25842965 -

SonicTitan said:
I feel like a lot of people don't know what it is, even when/after experiencing it. Ego death is like what assante said itz a progression through layers. You leave behind these "parts of you" in segments. That's at least how it has always seemed upon reflection of it. Aside from a strong mushroom experience  DMT seemed to be the only times it seemed to happen. You leave behind past and experiences and you just "are" but its not a you its just  "it".. You can force ego death with drugs but meditation can invoke those experiences too.
Personally have not experienced a meditation induced "Ego death" but my father has told me about times when he used to meditate he would have outer body experiences or completely lose his sense of self and being human.


Agreed with you and Asante. I've tripped dozens if not over a hundred times, not including hundreds of dissociative experiences, and the only "ego death" experiences I've had were my first trip on 200ug LSD and a subsequent trip after a couple years not tripping at all on an eighth of mushrooms with DMT smoked during the peak. The first lasted maybe an hour, could've been less but I was with a friend so I had a general time-frame. The second time, not sure how long it lasted, probably an hour before I regained my sense of self and another hour or so before I could actually see the room I was in again :lol:


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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: feevers]
    #25843209 -

feevers said:
LosTresOjos said:
If want to go to China I don't have to walk...


But you miss a whole lot along the way and aren't as strong once you get there... just to keep with your metaphor


Oh gawd yes give me jaguars, lions, sharks. Love those forest, swamps, oceans, deserts.

If your intention is to go find a treasure trove why would you waste the energy looking for it with your hands? We have tools to make the work less back braking.
  Also, what exactly is the purpose of your trips? Fun? Self improvement? Both? Curiosity?

I just don't understand the problem you have with the people searching for ego death. More than likely they'll have to learn the hard way about entering into these bizzare states of perception. It's not easy, it's not guaranteed either. It's just so subjective and that we lack the language to pin point it down.

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: kabel]
    #25843323 -

when I see a mountain, I do not take it personally. It is a wonderful thing as it is. I do not want to climb it at all.

sometimes I can feel it climbing itself, snowing with goats hopping around while sunlight bathes the whole territory as one thing.

I really do like peaking and peeking.

peek a boo!


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25843342 -

redgreenvines said:
when I see a mountain, I do not take it personally. It is a wonderful thing as it is. I do not want to climb it at all.



Fair, some people have less energy and physical health than others. But that does not change the fact that ultimate/peak experiences exist, and if one wants to aim for them they can. To say it's "waisting your ambition" is just judging with your own bias.

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: kabel] * 1
    #25843549 -

I experienced actual death on a DMT experience once. Saw my body destroyed in front of me, then there was a tunnel and flashing lightning as I zoomed towards a point of light. Then all was light. I didn't think anything, there was no me. I didn't know what I was even. I don't know how long I was in the light as there was no frame of reference. Gold sacred geometry appeared in the light spinning. Then suddenly I started feeling my body again. First my lungs and then it came tumbling back. Opened my eyes and was surprised to see I had hands and could move them, I didn't even know my name. I looked around the room and everything was alien, I didn't know what anything was. Then everything else came tumbling back. I was so thankful to be alive again. Integrating the trip was difficult, I was pretty traumatized. In some ways I am still dealing with it.

That sort of thing is what I think ego death is, I never set out to get it, and to be honest it's really not that great. If shooting high I would much rather a standard OBE type breakthrough that doesn't eliminate every part of me.


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We are the music makers, the dreamers of dreams.

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Northerner]
    #25843604 -

Northerner said:
I experienced actual death on a DMT experience once. Saw my body destroyed in front of me, then there was a tunnel and flashing lightning as I zoomed towards a point of light. Then all was light. I didn't think anything, there was no me. I didn't know what I was even. I don't know how long I was in the light as there was no frame of reference. Gold sacred geometry appeared in the light spinning. Then suddenly I started feeling my body again. First my lungs and then it came tumbling back. Opened my eyes and was surprised to see I had hands and could move them, I didn't even know my name. I looked around the room and everything was alien, I didn't know what anything was. Then everything else came tumbling back. I was so thankful to be alive again. Integrating the trip was difficult, I was pretty traumatized. In some ways I am still dealing with it.

That sort of thing is what I think ego death is, I never set out to get it, and to be honest it's really not that great. If shooting high I would much rather a standard OBE type breakthrough that doesn't eliminate every part of me.


Ok we'll you've burnt your fingers, learned a lesson and found your personal preference. That's fine. But your personal experience and preference doesn't detract from the fact that many people, including recently myself, have had profoundly beautiful ego death experiences.

Sharing negative experiences such as yours is as important as sharing the positives, so that those chasing the experience have a better understanding of all potential outcomes.

To each his own.

As long as those chasing it aren't doing so in an ignorant and unsafe way then all is good.

My experience of it was totally beautiful.


--------------------
Throw down your umbilical noose so I can climb right back

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Northerner]
    #25843608 -

Northerner said:
Gold sacred geometry appeared in the light spinning.


That's interesting. Very frequently I'll get the gold spinning, twirling, thing in the center of my DMT breakthroughs as well. I definitely get a feeling that gold is the color of the gods, and I'm not even a theist.

Quote:
That sort of thing is what I think ego death is, I never set out to get it...


LOL, you vaped DMT, what did you expect?

Quote:
...and to be honest it's really not that great.


Maybe it just wasn't that great that one time. I wouldn't tell you you should go back, but if you did it might be wonderful! I've had a few dark ones but overwhelmingly I think it's wonderful!

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Northerner]
    #25843629 -

Northerner said:
Maybe I'm missing something here?


Maybe that's it

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: kabel] * 3
    #25843731 -

The peak of a true ego death is not something that described in terms of beautiful, wonderful or dark. It can't be described at all, because there is no you. There is no observer & there is no observed. There's no memory of it. If you actually remember the pinnacle of an "ego death" experience, it wasn't really ego death. The parts you remember & attempt to describe are the journey there, and the journey back. What happens in between is a mystery.

I get the pull the newbs are expressing towards it. I was the same way when I was younger, and I did experience true ego death multiple times, and strong ego dissolution more times than I can count. Certainly very misguided, but that fit with headspace & personality at the time. Endless curiousity + the attitude that more is better. And the belief that I knew far more than I did....lack of humility of youth. :smirk: the reality is, as others have stated in this in thread, it's not the be all end all. Whatever experiences you have don't matter nearly as much as what you actually get & integrate from them. Felt a lot of reboots & blank slates earlier on in my psychedelic career......only to return to where I was at before. I've also had a real NDE. Not a "I took a bunch of psychedelics & I felt that died" "NDE", but a genuine one resulting from a heroin overdose. And that experience was different from any psychedelic experience I've had. But I didn't get anything out of it at the time. Wasn't until years later that I actually took something from it & it used it to better my life. Than it became quite profound.

As Northerner has stated, moderate doses are much more beneficial than excessive ones IME. Once you learn to work with the experience it gets a lot easier. And eating 10 strips, or handfuls of dried shrooms isn't learning to work with the experience. It's just taking a ton of drugs. Been there, done that many, many times....with nothing to show for it. A moderate dose every now & again these days...with intent for personal growth has reaped much benefit in my life. Lasting changes that have improved my mental/emotional, physical & spiritual wellbeing....with correlated improvements in my life overall. It's a lot easier to learn about yourself & work through shit when you're actually present in the experience. As fascinating as shattering one's self, and the crazy visuals, etc are, that strong of an experience is just not that conducive to really working through one's shit.

Additionally, you don't need to destroy your ego to get that blank slate effect. Moderate doses are plenty to provide that imprinting period during the comedown. And frankly, it's far more likely that you'll remember what it is that you wanted to imprint if you're not dealing with learning that you're human, have a name, a life, etc, just prior to that phase of the trip.

Less is more, intent is important, set & setting are key. Things are a lot simpler knowing that. I have no desire to take more than moderate doses these days, nor to do it too often. I know what works for me. Even breaking through on DMT. Haven't done so in years, and while I feel the time has come to re-enter that space, I'm definitely not in a rush.

For youngsters & newbs among us, you're obviously not at that point, and are gonna keep chasing it. If & when it happens isn't something you can will, and it's not necessarily dose dependent either. Doesn't matter how much you take compared to the set & setting & whether or not you're just primed for the experience.


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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Dark_Star] * 1
    #25843739 -

Well said Dark Star.

MrCraggles said:
Ok we'll you've burnt your fingers, learned a lesson and found your personal preference. That's fine. But your personal experience and preference doesn't detract from the fact that many people, including recently myself, have had profoundly beautiful ego death experiences.

Sharing negative experiences such as yours is as important as sharing the positives, so that those chasing the experience have a better understanding of all potential outcomes.

To each his own.

As long as those chasing it aren't doing so in an ignorant and unsafe way then all is good.

My experience of it was totally beautiful.


I'm not detracting from anyone. I'm pointing out a logical fallacy.

Did you actually die? Were you actually nothing? When reborn were you shocked that you were human again? If you answered no to any of these questions you did not experience ego death, merely dissolution. Like I said, everyone is crowding around this thing claiming it's so great, but meanwhile they talk about during their ego death experiences saying how they could see their lives so clearly, how it all made sense, how they were one with the universe and communicated. All of these things mean they did not experience ego death. The ego by definition is "I". If there is any "I" or "my" left in the experience it is not ego death. If there is no similarly distinct point of rebirth as there was death it is not ego death.

If you have experienced this, good for you, I hope you find resolution rather than derealization. Not many I've met have experienced it, certainly not the vast majority of the crowd swarming all over this topic who claim so. Even more apparent is that the vast majority who do seek it are not prepared psychologically to deal with it.


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We are the music makers, the dreamers of dreams.

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Northerner]
    #25843763 -

I had one experience which I belive killed my ego.
I smoked 100mg+ of dmt in one big hit and held it in for 25 sec.

While still inhaling the smoke, my vision was overlaid with a colorfull web and started shaking /vibrating heavily.
I exhaled and remember drifting to the side, then bam. I have no recollection of the next 12 minutes.
My friend, who sat next to me, said I had a full body seizure with foam in my mouth. I was gone completly.
When I came back I had no recollection of what happened, who I am, what I did, what "beeing" itself is, what time is, where I was, who the person next to me was.. nothing. I couldn't make anything out.
My vision was entirely filled with colorfull, rotaing diamonds. I couldn't see anything but colors for a few minutes.

I relived my entire life and a lot of unexplainable stuff during those minutes, it felt like a lifetime and beyond. Took me another 5min untill I could make out my buddy next to me.
His face had like 8 or 12 eyes and I only say his face for a few minutes. Still not knowing what had happened, and where /who I was..
Then my body came back into existence. It felt soo damn wired to have a body. 35min after smoking I was almost back to baseline and could make sense out of mainly everything again.

I remember one moment I felt like I or my head was an extraction jar that bubbles over and dissolves into the room. I thought I fucked up the extraction and killed myself. So did it feel.


I never dosed this high again and don't have the urge to. It was pure terror.

-


--------------------
.. harmala extraction TEK.. / .. mescaline extraction TEK.. / .. cactus tar pellets TEK..
.. long distance trip / are you shpongled? / ELDER / TUBER / Jordso / IAH / Sleeping Pandora ... / Thurnin / OPETH ...
.. essential psychedelic guide, by D.M.Turner
.. Tihkal .. / .. Pihkal .. / .. Psilohuasca ..

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Pandemoon]
    #25843774 -

Pandemoon said:
I had one experience which I belive killed my ego.
I smoked 100mg+ of dmt in one big hit and held it in for 25 sec.

While still inhaling the smoke, my vision was overlaid with a colorfull web and started shaking /vibrating heavily.
I exhaled and remember drifting to the side, then bam. I have no recollection of the next 12 minutes.
My friend, who sat next to me, said I had a full body seizure with foam in my mouth. I was gone completly.
When I came back I had no recollection of what happened, who I am, what I did, what "beeing" itself is, what time is, where I was, who the person next to me was.. nothing. I couldn't make anything out.
My vision was entirely filled with colorfull, rotaing diamonds. I couldn't see anything but colors for a few minutes.
I relived my entire life and a lot of unexplainable stuff during those minutes, it felt like a lifetime and beyond. Took me another 5min untill I could make out my buddy next to me.
His face had like 8 or 12 eyes and I only say his face for a few minutes. Still not knwoing what had ahppened and where I was..
Then my body came back into existence. It felt soo damn wired to have a body. 35min after smoking I was almost back to baseline and could make sense out of mainly everything again.

I remember one moment I felt like I or my head was an extraction jar that bubbles over and dissolves into the room. I thought I fucked up the extraction and killed myself. So did it feel.


I never dosed this high again and don't have the urge to. It was pure terror.

-


not sure if that was ego death or not, but jesus christ.

that's what scares me most about DMT, lots of people say it's harmless and you can't OD but every now and then I hear a story about a seizure or heart attack in someone healthy. 100mg isn't much more than I usually clear with resin included. scary stuff

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: feevers]
    #25843793 -

I'm prone to epilepsy and had about 10 seizures (not drug induced) in my youth like 15 to 20 years ago.
Three times it happened while on psychedelics /drugs, during the last 7 years. One time with smoked dmt, one time on shrooms, and one time with fly agaric and a lot of weed.

High doses of psychedelics can induce seizures. I tripped roughly 150 times or more during the last 7 years. Three times it knocked me out so far. A seizure while tipping is not fun, though. :crazy:

-


--------------------
.. harmala extraction TEK.. / .. mescaline extraction TEK.. / .. cactus tar pellets TEK..
.. long distance trip / are you shpongled? / ELDER / TUBER / Jordso / IAH / Sleeping Pandora ... / Thurnin / OPETH ...
.. essential psychedelic guide, by D.M.Turner
.. Tihkal .. / .. Pihkal .. / .. Psilohuasca ..

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Pandemoon]
    #25843808 -

Sounds awful Pandemoon. Glad you pull out of it okay. That'd slow me down big time.

I know a few people who have had seizures on DMT, a couple of shroomerites as well... one more now. It's not that uncommon with massive doses.


--------------------
We are the music makers, the dreamers of dreams.

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Northerner]
    #25843830 -

I'm okay with it, as it doesn't hurt. It shuts down my conciousness and I wake up laying on the floor.
I'm very tired and worn out afterwards, though. Not good while on a high dose of psychs..

I gained true respect for dmt!
And I'm a bit nervous to try a really high dose of lsd. If my vision is only moving patterns and switching colors, it might trigger a seizure. :sad:

-


--------------------
.. harmala extraction TEK.. / .. mescaline extraction TEK.. / .. cactus tar pellets TEK..
.. long distance trip / are you shpongled? / ELDER / TUBER / Jordso / IAH / Sleeping Pandora ... / Thurnin / OPETH ...
.. essential psychedelic guide, by D.M.Turner
.. Tihkal .. / .. Pihkal .. / .. Psilohuasca ..

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Dark_Star]
    #25843834 -

Dark_Star said:
The peak of a true ego death is not something that described in terms of beautiful, wonderful or dark. It can't be described at all, because there is no you. There is no observer & there is no observed. There's no memory of it. If you actually remember the pinnacle of an "ego death" experience, it wasn't really ego death.


Haha, well if you all want to decide on what the definition of ego death is I'll let you know what I think of the experience. Most say it's when you have lost track of the idea that you are a human, so a molecule spread across space counts there, but I guess to you that doesn't count because I remember being a molecule. FWIW, I've completely blacked out on DMT a bunch of times, but since I have no recollection of anything I don't count those. I generally come back really blissful, so maybe. Any jnani yogi worth his salt will tell you self realization is pure bliss.

This is my favorite trip report on shroomery. Because he remembers it, it doesn't count? OK, I guess if you say so.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/1270450

Quote:
The parts you remember & attempt to describe are the journey there, and the journey back. What happens in between is a mystery.


That's easy, that is dose related. More DMT will get you there, every time.

Quote:
Certainly very misguided...


Sure sure, you're old, you're one up.

Quote:
As Northerner has stated, moderate doses are much more beneficial than excessive ones IME.


I don't think anyone is saying excessive is better. At least until now, with your apparent definition of ego death being a complete blackout. I call that a "blast past" myself, but maybe it's not. Ramakrishna says nirvikalpa samadhi is like a salt doll going into the ocean to measure it's depth. Obviously not much comes out, except a sense of knowing, and/or a knowing you knew, so I wouldn't say there's nothing to that either.

Quote:
Once you learn to work with the experience it gets a lot easier. And eating 10 strips, or handfuls of dried shrooms isn't learning to work with the experience. It's just taking a ton of drugs. Been there, done that many, many times....with nothing to show for it.


Maybe what you have to show for it is your ability to get more out of less now, for having been there before.

Quote:
As fascinating as shattering one's self, and the crazy visuals, etc are, that strong of an experience is just not that conducive to really working through one's shit.


Sure they are. The psilocybin and quit smoking research indicates that it was only, or at least more, effective if it was accompanied by a "full mystical experience." I suppose you can argue about whether a full mystical experience is ego death or not, but it sure as hell isn't microdosing.

Quote:
Less is more, intent is important, set & setting are key.


That's at least half bullshit. FWIW, I never go in with intention, and it (or my true self or Shiva) almost always knows what I need. Dzogchen is pretty big on not having intention either if you want to experience your "primordial state" and "self arising wisdom."

Quote:
Even breaking through on DMT. Haven't done so in years, and while I feel the time has come to re-enter that space, I'm definitely not in a rush.


If you truly thought less was more, why break through on DMT at all?

Quote:
For youngsters & newbs among us, you're obviously not at that point, and are gonna keep chasing it. If & when it happens isn't something you can will, and it's not necessarily dose dependent either.


I wouldn't go so far as to say "your definition" of ego death is absolutely dose depended, but it's damn close for most people.

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Northerner]
    #25843853 -

Northerner said:
Did you actually die?


Did you?

Quote:
If you answered no to any of these questions you did not experience ego death, merely dissolution.


Looks like none of us have been there now. This discussion is getting retarded fast, and it's not on the side of the newbs.

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: kabel] * 1
    #25844063 -

kabel said:
Northerner said:
Did you actually die?


Did you?



For all intents and purposes yes.

kabel said:
Looks like none of us have been there now. This discussion is getting retarded fast, and it's not on the side of the newbs.


I know several people who have experienced it also. Just because you don't identify does not make it retarded.


--------------------
We are the music makers, the dreamers of dreams.

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: kabel] * 4
    #25844075 -

:lol: spoken like a true newb. Not sure why pointing out that there are different levels to the experience is something that perturbs folks. And while strong level 4s are obviously overwhelming & profound, and ego dissolving....they aren't the same as the classic ego death. Which has been clearly defined for a long time. Only folks here making up definitions are those that haven't hit that point yet, but think they did. This isn't a cock comparing contest though.....spreading knowledge.

It's amusing that you find this offensive. Only reason they you do, is because you seem to have a true need to have experienced ego death. For what purpose other than to bolster your ego, who knows. But if you take a step back & read what we are saying objectively, you'll see that we're not knocking the profundity of your experience. Experiencing being a molecule is a mind blowing & profound experience. Of course it counts. All we're saying is the fact that you had self-awareness, means that there was an "I" there. Aka not true ego death. But, from my perspective & that, I'd wager,  of others here, that  is frankly a more overall useful experience than wiping yourself away entirely.

"Any jnani yogi worth his salt will tell you self realization is pure bliss."

A lot of things are blissful. Heroin is blissful, and that's the opposite of self-realization...that's an illusion, an escape from & destruction of one's self. I've had many self-realizations, and trust me...not all were blissful. There's a lot that haven't been. The bliss comes if & when I address those things in a healthy manner & overcome them. Which takes time.

"Quote:

The parts you remember & attempt to describe are the journey there, and the journey back. What happens in between is a mystery.



That's easy, that is dose related. More DMT will get you there, every time."

You've obviously misunderstood what I was saying there. It has nothing to do with the dose, or even the substance. For ego death, what you can kind of recall is the experience of coming up & breaking apart, until there is no you. Then the process of coming back....regaining awareness, slowly coming back together. The actual point where the ego is dead is a mystery because there is no you left to form a memory. So the memories are of coming up & coming back, not of the portion where your ego was "dead".


"Quote:

Even breaking through on DMT. Haven't done so in years, and while I feel the time has come to re-enter that space, I'm definitely not in a rush.


If you truly thought less was more, why break through on DMT at all?"

Because that's a whole other ballgame. That's not about self-realization & growth. That's about blasting into hyperspace which is a fascinating experience, and one that I desire from time to time.

"Quote:

Certainly very misguided...


Sure sure, you're old, you're one up. "

And again, you misunderstand. I was speaking of myself at that time, and I was most certainly very misguided, and wound up very lost. And I'm a whole hell of a lot more than "one up" on the 20-something version of myself. As you will be on the current version of yourself in time. And as I will be on the current version of myself in time.

"Quote:

Once you learn to work with the experience it gets a lot easier. And eating 10 strips, or handfuls of dried shrooms isn't learning to work with the experience. It's just taking a ton of drugs. Been there, done that many, many times....with nothing to show for it.


Maybe what you have to show for it is your ability to get more out of less now, for having been there before. "

That's an interesting thought, but I don't think that's the case. Though maybe it does play a role. I certainly flow through it easier having gone so deep in the past. But the reasons I get more out of the experiences now is because I treat in a very different manner than I did when I was younger. Even though I was trying to be spiritual & grow as an individual when I was younger, I didn't put the same kind of effort into it. And didn't really have much of an intention or plan on what I was going to address. Nor did I come up with, or follow through consistently on any plans to address the things that came up.

I mean having the experience is something, so there's that. But what I didn't get from them....and what I mean by having anything to show for them is personal growth. The kind that I get now from a whole lot less.

"Quote:

As fascinating as shattering one's self, and the crazy visuals, etc are, that strong of an experience is just not that conducive to really working through one's shit.


Sure they are. The psilocybin and quit smoking research indicates that it was only, or at least more, effective if it was accompanied by a "full mystical experience." I suppose you can argue about whether a full mystical experience is ego death or not, but it sure as hell isn't microdosing. "

A full mystical experience most certainly doesn't mean ego death. A mystical experience is just that; mystical. Doesn't have to be an overwhelming experience. Just be tapped into that type of energy & thinking. Don't even need drugs for that either, though they certainly are a more dramatic & consistent method for sure. I don't personally microdose. My idea of an moderate dose is ~200mics of LSD, sometimes a bit less a few times of year. Strong, fully psychedelic, but leaves me with a clarity & an "I" to observe & learn.

There's things to learn about yourself via a complete shattering.....but that's not quite the same thing as working through your shit. Again, you have to be present to do that. If you're no longer present, than something else entirely is happening. You need to be able to see yourself, your life, and how the way you think, feel, and go about your life is affecting the outcomes & relationships to work through unraveling those threads. Can't do that if you don't even know you're human, let alone remember what life is.

What happened with ego-death & ego-dissolving experiences previously for me was that yeah, I felt reborn. Had a blank slate. But the thing is....it's not permanent. Never will be. Life is constantly moving, evolving. I may have temporarily destroyed my ego, but that doesn't mean I wiped out my personality, my traits..good or bad. Just temporarily during the peak of my experience. It all comes back. And I hadn't worked through my shit...just checked out for a bit. So as time would pass, all that shit would come back & leave me at square one. It still comes back. But now I work through myself with each experience, so when life inevitably drags me back to reality & gums up the works, I can maintain that perspective for longer, and maintain at least a little bit of it for even longer. But this is why I returned to psychedelics, and have my periodic sessions; to regain that connection within, and continue to evolve in positive ways vs reverting back to negative thought patterns & habits.

"Quote:


Less is more, intent is important, set & setting are key.


That's at least half bullshit. FWIW, I never go in with intention, and it (or my true self or Shiva) almost always knows what I need. Dzogchen is pretty big on not having intention either if you want to experience your "primordial state" and "self arising wisdom." "

That comment reeks of inexperience. Set & setting is equally important to....if not even more than the dose itself when it comes to the overall experience. This is psychedelia 101... and intent is very important. I never used intent, then I kinda half-assed an intent, and oscillated for years in this manner. Never got anything lasting out of those experiences. Just having had the experience itself. Always went back to my old self though. A pendulum really, going from one extreme to the other. Of course back then you couldn't tell me that I wasn't getting anything from the experiences. I would argue that until everyone turned blue. But hindsight is 20/20. The testament to how something is working is something that happens over a period of months or a couple years, but down the road. Talk to me in 10 years, and we'll see if these things you've gleaned have had any real lasting impact. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. Mine didn't. I had to relearn, and then learn how to utilize that in my daily life. Which took a while, and is always an ongoing process.

"Quote:


For youngsters & newbs among us, you're obviously not at that point, and are gonna keep chasing it. If & when it happens isn't something you can will, and it's not necessarily dose dependent either.


I wouldn't go so far as to say "your definition" of ego death is absolutely dose depended, but it's damn close for most people."

Nah, sometimes you're just due. And preparations can make it a lot more likely. It's possible to take a large dose of psychedelics & not get it. And it's equally possible to take a more moderate dose of psychedelics & get it.


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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Northerner]
    #25844174 -

Northerner said:
Did you?



For all intents and purposes yes.


Bullshit, you didn't. You have not experienced ego death, per your own criteria.

kabel said:
Looks like none of us have been there now. This discussion is getting retarded fast, and it's not on the side of the newbs.


I know several people who have experienced it also. Just because you don't identify does not make it retarded.


No, I identify with almost every experience everyone is saying. I just think it's bullshit when all the high post count guys try and pretend they're the only one's who have had ego death, and the newbs are "one down" for trying or wondering. Feel free to criticize and one up yourself, but in doing so I think you should at least be logically sound. Just sayin'

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Dark_Star]
    #25844188 -

Dark_Star said:
And while strong level 4s are obviously overwhelming & profound, and ego dissolving....they aren't the same as the classic ego death. Which has been clearly defined for a long time.


What's this clear definition of a "classic ego death" that some majority, or respected minority of trippers/Buddhists/yogis/whatever agrees with? Please site your source.

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: kabel] * 1
    #25844210 -

It's not that we're the only ones that have it, it's that what we're seeing people call ego-death just isn't it. And also that it really isn't the pinnacle or be all/end all of psychedelia. Can also be dangerous. I've personally witnessed experienced trippers....long time friends flip the fuck out. In a way that could've ended really badly, had the rest of us recognized what was happening & handled the situation. One of these friends is a stronger individual for it. The other one not so much....that experience precipitated some shit that's ongoing, even years later. And that's a dude that ate a half ounce of shrooms in college, had a terrible trip...but maintained. Years later real shit down. :shrug: Ya really gotta be careful.

One of the things that those of us who've been here for years definitely do have on you newer folks is perspective on the community. Used to be a really tight knit community. We all kinda came up together via this place. And sad to say, a whole lot of those people are dead now. Overdoses & suicides being the number one culprit. A whole lot of folks that posted about searching for the ultimate psychedelic experience here in TPE when they were new have wound up strung out on hard drugs, there's a lot that went looney. Shit happens man. So when we try to educate folks, even if it comes off as harsh, it's out of a place of love. I don't want to see you posting in WCA with a CA of heroin, cocaine & benzos in a couple years.


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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Asante] * 3
    #25844228 -

Asante said:
Ego Death is the sequence of mind reboots that follows having worked through your life issues and your birth traumas.

Almost all trippers avoid dealing with life issues and lettuing the nuclear fire of bad trips rage out, and because of this they will never have their Ego death run that propels them into the transpersonal realm.

Any report that doesnt includes the experiences of LITERALLY DYING and LITERALLY BEING BORN in the most profound sense is not Ego death.

IMMINENT TOTAL ANNIHILATION ON ALL LEVELS followed by a PSYCHOSPIRITUAL REBIRTH.


Yeah it's all that.  The idea that a novice can consume some "large" dose and "experience" ego death seems to be a commonality in a lot of recent threads about so-called "ego death".  Like many complex things it's not that simple.

And oh yeah they really take offense at being called out.  But at least they're searching, guess that counts for something.  :shrug:


--------------------

if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: kabel]
    #25844229 -

kabel said:
Dark_Star said:
And while strong level 4s are obviously overwhelming & profound, and ego dissolving....they aren't the same as the classic ego death. Which has been clearly defined for a long time.


What's this clear definition of a "classic ego death" that some majority, or respected minority of trippers/Buddhists/yogis/whatever agrees with? Please site your source.


No more "I". You no longer exist. Hence the no memory. Far as sources go, do your own homework. Start with the 50s, and work from there. It's  a fascinating study, and one that anyone that's seriously interested in psychedelics should do.


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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Dark_Star]
    #25844279 -

Dark_Star said:
No more "I". You no longer exist. Hence the no memory. Far as sources go, do your own homework. Start with the 50s, and work from there. It's  a fascinating study, and one that anyone that's seriously interested in psychedelics should do.


I'm sorry I don't believe you that this is the "clearly defined" definition of a "classic ego death." Just no "I" and no memory? Is that it? I don't remember being asleep last night. Was that ego death? 

If you made it up, just admit it. If you just heard it somewhere, admit it. If the term is not all that clearly defined you can admit you were wrong when you said otherwise. It's always popular to feign indignance and quietly slink away. Or you can PROVIDE A CITE.  I'm sorry to call you out, but...

I'm calling you out.

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Dark_Star]
    #25844286 -

Ok WHAT THE FUCK IS EGO DEATH?!

I made a thread about my own quest for ego death and then finally had an experience like no experience I'd ever had that largely matched with the descriptions people were providing.

Up to that point I'd always had a lot of ego dissolution on high doses of mushrooms and had experienced infinity; endlessness in all directions of space and time.

Then I had around 10g penis envy uncut just the other week and dissolved into a soup of pixels. A soup that spread out and was reality. And at some point during the experience the most important things in my life became clear to me, the things most important to my happiness, which shows I still had some memory intact.

It was an incredibly profound experience that was unlike any I'd ever had on psychedelics before.

But now I'm reading because I had memory then this wasn't ego death?! Yet I don't know at what point I was having these memories. Like I can't say with any certainty where in the timeline. Initially I was just dissolved infinite pixels. I couldn't see the room I was in. I was just  infinite pixels. That had never, ever happened to me before.

Every time I think I've experienced ego death somebody comes along and tells me I haven't.


--------------------
Throw down your umbilical noose so I can climb right back

Edited by MrCraggles (02/28/19 05:46 PM)

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: MrCraggles] * 4
    #25844316 -

There are people on here with a wealth of experience with these things and honestly it is incredibly generous of them to share it. I can say from experience, pride is a one-way ticket to taking “way too much” or going farther than intended. If it happens, it happens. We all have our own paths.

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: MrCraggles]
    #25844404 -

MrCraggles said:
Ok WHAT THE FUCK IS EGO DEATH?!

I made a thread about my own quest for ego death and then finally had an experience like no experience I'd ever had that largely matched with the descriptions people were providing.

Up to that point I'd always had a lot of ego dissolution on high doses of mushrooms and had experienced infinity; endlessness in all directions of space and time.

Then I had around 10g penis envy uncut just the other week and dissolved into a soup of pixels. A soup that spread out and was reality. And at some point during the experience the most important things in my life became clear to me, the things most important to my happiness, which shows I still had some memory intact.

It was an incredibly profound experience that was unlike any I'd ever had on psychedelics before.

But now I'm reading because I had memory then this wasn't ego death?! Yet I don't know at what point I was having these memories. Like I can't say with any certainty where in the timeline. Initially I was just dissolved infinite pixels. I couldn't see the room I was in. I was just  infinite pixels. That had never, ever happened to me before.

Every time I think I've experienced ego death somebody comes along and tells me I haven't.


When there is no "I" or "my" left in that part of the experience, that's ego death. I think as a whole though it's a process of losing everything, hitting that place where there is nothing and then coming back.

It's easy to define if you break down the words:

ego = the part of the mind that mediates between the conscious and the unconscious and is responsible for reality testing and a sense of personal identity.
death = dies

Your identity dies.

That is what it is quite literally.

I personally think one can remember the point when you are there, but cannot tell how long it is as there is no reference to anything else. But ya know, your milage may vary. I really can't see into other people's trips.


--------------------
We are the music makers, the dreamers of dreams.

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: MrCraggles]
    #25844613 -

MrCraggles said:
Every time I think I've experienced ego death somebody comes along and tells me I haven't.


You can recreate the self test from the bolded questions on page 3 of this paper and see what you get. Score by averaging each of your 8 answers on a 0-100 score between "No, not more than usually" and "Yes, entirely or completely." Forgetting everything wasn't one of the questions, nor was did you literally die.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4906025/pdf/fnhum-10-00269.pdf

I bet you score really high. The entire paper is a fascinating read. There was a very linear dose/score relationship between revealed on page 7. There was a positive correlation between ego dissolution and feeling of well being discussed on page 8. Generally the paper back up most if not all of the newbs positions.  And before any old-timers get their panties in a bunch about the paper being about dissolution not death, the refer to the experience being the same on page 2.

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: kabel] * 1
    #25844640 -

Complete ego-disolution can be called ego-death. Sure.

Here's the reference from the paper. You can see it contains an actual death part or the cycle.



Which leads right back to my OP.

Quote:
Something I'm seeing about is a tendency for newer trippers to become fixated with the idea of ego death. I've seen the same thing before with newer DMT users becoming fixated with the idea of break through.

These terms don't seem to mean a great deal in the wide world of tripping. We know that if we take enough psychedelics we will see visions, whether or not we exist in those visions and to what extent doesn't seem to be important. Destroying your current perceived reality and moving into the void isn't something anyone else can tell you happened to you. You know if it happened. The question is pretty pointless. The level to which you journey is only comparable to your own normal state of mind anyway.

There's no merit badge for smearing your consciousness across the galaxy.




--------------------
We are the music makers, the dreamers of dreams.

Edited by Northerner (02/28/19 08:56 PM)

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Northerner]
    #25844648 -

Northerner said:
That is because the study is on ego dissolution, not ego death. They are different things.


Read page two, like I said.

I'll make it even easier for you, paragraph two. According to psychedelic researchers, most of whom I bet trip themselves, it's a rose by any other name...

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: kabel]
    #25844655 -

Good, looks like you read it and changed your post. Sure yeah, now their the same, you thought so all along, lol

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: kabel]
    #25844671 -

No they are not the same, read the link I posted.

Feeling a bit out of sorts is also ego death if you want to use the terminology directly from the one single paper and call that fact. Therefore everyone who has ever had a cold has experienced ego death.

Logical fallacy, again.

(all cats have four legs, all dogs have four legs, therefore all cats are dogs)

I'm not going to respond to you anymore. I'm tired of the semantics and silly games. Go and tell everyone you've experienced 100 ego deaths if you want. Wear the badge.


--------------------
We are the music makers, the dreamers of dreams.

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Northerner] * 3
    #25844679 -

Quote:
Something I'm seeing about is a tendency for newer trippers to become fixated with the idea of ego death. I've seen the same thing before with newer DMT users becoming fixated with the idea of break through.

These terms don't seem to mean a great deal in the wide world of tripping. We know that if we take enough psychedelics we will see visions, whether or not we exist in those visions and to what extent doesn't seem to be important. Destroying your current perceived reality and moving into the void isn't something anyone else can tell you happened to you. You know if it happened. The question is pretty pointless. The level to which you journey is only comparable to your own normal state of mind anyway.

There's no merit badge for smearing your consciousness across the galaxy.

Maybe I'm missing something here?


It's similar to the idea of a 'level 5' trip - if it gets mentioned a lot then people will start threads asking 'was this a level 5 trip?'

If 'ego death' is talked about as though it's an important goal then naturally people will want to reach that goal. There is so much confusion and argument around the exact meaning of 'ego death' that it's hardly surprising if these people can only form a vague idea of what it's supposed to be and start threads asking questions about it.

As far as I'm concerned, if you are talking about 'ego death' you are most likely either talking about something related to Grof's ideas of death and rebirth (quoted extensively in this post), or Leary's idea of 'ego loss' relating to the 'Bardo states' of the Tibetan Book of the Dead (Leary's ideas are discussed in this post). Both ideas involve some sort of transcendent experience related to Buddhist ideas of inner radiance, nirvana e.t.c

So you've got Grof's psychospiritual death and rebirth via cosmic annihilation, and Leary's 'clear light', both involving some kind of transcendent experience. I assume most people asking about ego death are aiming for the 'transcendent spiritual experience' rather than the 'total annihilation' aspect, but at high doses you don't really get to choose!

I have a lot of sympathy with Northerer's comment in another thread

Quote:
Full ego death isn't really very cool. It's more like being beat into submission with a psychedelic stick to the point you know it's all over.


:aliceshocker:

That does describe trips I've been in where you get to a point where it feels like you are going to have to die to get through the trip. It feels like 'you' as a conscious entity are being pushed into a smaller and smaller space as the pressure of the trip gets more and more intense. Until you aren't there anymore and you have to surrender to the trip.

From a trip journal:

Quote:
When you die and you come back. That's when it becomes frightening.


The feeling of death within a trip can be very literal. From another trip journal:

Quote:
Ego death = actual death. Get with the program


:owl:

As for rebirth - I would say it feels more like an 'awakening' than being born. You come back from nowhere feeling you are truly awake for the first time.

I've had quite a few trips where even after I'd returned to my senses I was convinced I was dead, or I ended up believing I was God.

I think the common factor in all this is the 'transcendent experience' that takes place as you transition through whatever state of death or non-being or void you are talking about. The 'point' of reaching this state of dissociation is that there is something there when 'you' are gone. That's the best I can try and describe it. It's like coming home, waking up, discovering that life and death is an illusion and there is something else beyond it all. Epiphany, revelation, transcendence, where you start to believe that the whole structure of reality is fundamentally different to what you thought before.

Now personally I don't believe in the reality of all this, but for sure these drugs are very very fucking strong and this is the kind of trip that makes you realize just how strong they are...

:aweoverdose:

If I had a template for what I personally mean by an classic 'ego death' trip on shrooms it would be the kind of trip that really puts you through the mill, some kind of apocalyptic breakdown of reality that crushes your sense of self and feels like approaching death, a trip that ultimately annihilates you until you are no longer conscious of yourself as a person. But something vast rises up within that void, another type of conscious experience, oceanic, transcendent, as though it is the consciousness of the universe itself, or that you have somehow become conscious of what is normally unconsciousness, and it is far vaster and more powerful than your waking state of mind.

And when you snap back to your senses you are still aware of this vast universe of consciousness, and it has an impact on you like a massive religious experience, an epiphany, the discovery of a profound secret. You may not be sure whether you are still alive. You may feel as though you are in direct contact with God, you have in some sense become God... and you spend the rest of the trip rising a massive wave of mania and euphoria as you try to figure out what happened, feeling as though you have unlocked the secrets of the universe. A fascinating but exhausting experience that can be as unpleasant on the way in as it is euphoric and delusional on the way out.

:scaryshroom:

Now which parts of that are really 'core' to the experience is hard to say, some of it is just weird shit that happens in my own trips. You can only really compare it back to the ideas mentioned earlier and relate it to those. In any case I've never really tripped with the aim of ego death; it's more like, wow, that was an utterly incredible trip, and then some time later I could relate it to the ideas of Grof or Leary or the Tibetan Book of the Dead.

I don't see the point in arguing too much about whether trip X is 'really' ego death or which one of us has figured out the true definition; there are several intersecting ideas in play and some of these talk about different levels of the same experience. It's more helpful to be specific about the details of a particular trip rather than simply label it as 'ego death' and then argue about what you mean by that.

Personally during my own period of 'pushing the envelope' with high doses I was less bothered about the concept of ego death and more curious as to why I had so many trip journals where I claimed to be God at some point. I had many experiences of 'dying and becoming God' and the specifics of a particular point of 'no self' inside the black hole of those trips would not have been particularly interesting to me; it was the feeling of revelation upon revelation that came pouring out when I 'woke up' or 'came back' that was amazing.

:awecid:


--------------------
I wrote that, but I meant something else

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Northerner]
    #25844685 -

Northerner said:
No they are not the same, read the link I posted.


Sure, the link you edited your post to show, after I caught you talking out both sides of your mouth?

Quote:
Feeling a bit out of sorts is also ego death if you want to use the terminology directly from the one single paper and call that fact. Therefore everyone who has ever had a cold has experienced ego death.


Really? Command-F reveals that neither you wiki entry nor my paper contain the words "feeling a bit out sorts" nor reference to the word "cold."

Quote:
I'm not going to respond to you anymore.


Good. Read the rest of that paper though.

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Aldebaran]
    #25844709 -

Aldebaran said:
It's similar to the idea of a 'level 5' trip - if it gets mentioned a lot then people will start threads asking 'was this a level 5 trip?'


Agreed, with Shulgin's (++++) trip being right there also.

Similar to what you said, I think the rebirthing aspect is a lot of suggestion inputted by Leary and Grof. Basically, I think you nailed the experience really well, which rings truer to my experience than references to Buddhism.

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: kabel] * 3
    #25844767 -

Attributing ones experiences in a way that can ranked against anothers (as a death or any other thing) is not only pointless but damaging to your cause.

Stop looking and measuring yourself against others in a search for your own personal growth.

Nobody on here is egoless, if there is id like to know what part of them posted.


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Northerner] * 2
    #25844777 -

Northerner said:
Did you actually die? Were you actually nothing? When reborn were you shocked that you were human again? If you answered no to any of these questions you did not experience ego death, merely dissolution. Like I said, everyone is crowding around this thing claiming it's so great, but meanwhile they talk about during their ego death experiences saying how they could see their lives so clearly, how it all made sense, how they were one with the universe and communicated. All of these things mean they did not experience ego death. The ego by definition is "I". If there is any "I" or "my" left in the experience it is not ego death. If there is no similarly distinct point of rebirth as there was death it is not ego death.



Yes, you have a sort of a definition here.  But what it leaves out is the majority of what Buddhism (among others) teaches - and what you can experience firsthand - that recursive ego-based consciousness isn't the be-all, end-all, and only way of experience.  Just to say that some particular experience where there is no mental function ranks as that particular thing doesn't mean much in itself.  General anesthesia features no mental function, but most people don't chase it since there's no "there" there, and coming out of it is very disorienting.  Every night you voluntarily surrender consciousness and every morning you boot it up again.  Sure there are these interludes of dreams which are sort of like ordinary consciousness interspersed in it but they rarely rise to full egoic sense of self.

What I'm saying is that beyond ordinary thinking (involving the self as an object of reference) lies a perfectly valid sort of thinking that doesn't have that impediment.  You can indeed get this through psychedelics, and many do, but when you try to talk about the temptation is always to cast it as "I" because it sounds just too lame to say something "and then this fully functional but nevertheless non-egoic sense of self awareness started to rapidly sort through memories as if they were real". 

Once you get used to that sort of experience it becomes very useful because it never gets in the way of thinking like the "I" does.  It has no sense of self to try to impress or defend or account for.  So immediately you get to jettison a whole lot of essentially useless baggage.  But not to worry, it's quite capable of running an imitation ego anytime it's called for, which a lot of people apparently find comforting in the mundane world and all of its tricky interactions.

I suspect that the whole appeal of "ego death" as a goal stems from its usefulness as a description of an ineffable experience. This kind of thing is really nothing more than a marker of an experience that resists verbal parsing.  But many people have some sort of idea (however ill defined) of what "ego death" is supposed to be, so rather than it being some kind of pissing contest it's more like a description of some commonality.  I.e.,it marks you as inside a self-defined tribe to which you desire to belong.  And that's a very normal human sort of goal.

:goodday:

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: PrimalSoup] * 6
    #25844782 -

Fuck it....

I've had moments where my ego is shown to be what it is : a manifestation leading to self.


Ive had moments where I felt all emotion stripped till I felt like pure awareness...just an observer.


Ive had moments where me...or what I think(manifest) to be me were everywhere and nowhere forever.


Ive had a moment where I thought I was going to die....then did.


I really don't care for definition or Pidgeon holes they were all amazing and not one of them was sought.

If youre trying to tick a box go away and think about who put it there.


Good honest thread Notherner.:llamastare:


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: pineninja]
    #25844900 -

pineninja said:
Attributing ones experiences in a way that can ranked against anothers (as a death or any other thing) is not only pointless but damaging to your cause.

Stop looking and measuring yourself against others in a search for your own personal growth.

Nobody on here is egoless, if there is id like to know what part of them posted.



:snoopyes:


--------------------
IT WAS ALL A DREAM

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: kabel]
    #25844922 -

Its so very subjective, and some things are difficult to put into words. I've had an experience on LSD where I was faced with some of the life changing events in my life as deaths, because they changed who I am afterwards in some way.

I also had this one particular DMT experience. It was one huge hit that I felt slightly worried about after taking, because I could feel it coat my lungs. I experienced a big bang like event, and eventually time seemed to almost stop. It felt like seconds were decades. Other things happened in between, but this is an excerpt... At the end I was literally told I had a body to come back to that was made for me if I wanted it. I chose to do so, and when I came to I was gasping for air like I had come up from a very deep dive.

There lots of other factors in my personal life that contributed to it, but I wound up having a psychotic break not too long after. I was committed for a week to a psych facility. There were moments of genuine bliss, and paralyzing paranoia...but for a couple of weeks I almost completely forgot who I was. What I liked to do, my honest opinions, things I was looking forward to in life, etc. My ability to properly communicate and listen was also affected. I slowly remembered and rebuilt pieces at a time, and was lucky to have family to give me some time and space to do that without relying on meds. A pretty difficult time in my life.

I had been pushing it pretty hard for a year or two, tripping 2-4 times a month or more for almost two years straight before that happened. I'm not sure exactly what I was chasing for so long, but whatever I found took a few months to fully recover from.

It can be great to experience profound moments where you seemingly cease to exist and get swept into just being a witness in a world of wonder, even if that sometimes means being torn apart in the process. Actually forgetting who you really are for awhile outside of those moments, might be more than some of the "ego death" seekers are bargaining for IMO.

Edited by hummingbird (03/01/19 01:42 AM)

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: hummingbird] * 4
    #25845000 -

There's brain damage and then there's transcendent insight.  I've had both, the first a concussion that took months if not years to recover from, and the latter many times from shrooms - which also helped heal the first.

Personally I gotta say I don't think discussions like this have a lot of value.  People that might be helped by it tune it out because they haven't seen past it yet, and nothing that's said is going to affect my trips - or the vast majority of other peoples trips I expect - in any way at all.  Plus everybody has to take their own journey, and pretty much nothing you can say could prepare them for what that journey really is.

I know I don't agonize in the middle of transcendent trips "is this ego death?"  :shake: I gave all that shit up many years back, after a extended but futile period of trying to accomplish exactly that - demolish ego while tripping.  I just ended up feeling bruised and annoyed as a result.

If you want to lose your ego lose it in meditation.  There at least, while completely sober, you can explore that tiny little time interval that lies between the origin of thought and its absorption by active ego.  There you can see directly how the ego mind is nothing more than a construct built on top of original mind, which pervades the universe (basically), a sort of a lie.  You can see how to turn it off and turn it on if you want to.

I think people who get interested in consciousness manipulation through psychedelics often have a genuine desire to lose the impediments of mundane reality.  Ego mind is attachment in Buddhism.  Attachment brings suffering.  Buddha had it right - end attachment and you end suffering.

It doesn't mean that ending suffering creates bliss.  This is another lie.  What you get instead is peace.  And I'll take that any day. :yinyang2:

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #25845023 -

PrimalSoup said:
There's brain damage and then there's transcendent insight.  I've had both, the first a concussion that took months if not years to recover from, and the latter many times from shrooms - which also helped heal the first.

Personally I gotta say I don't think discussions like this have a lot of value.  People that might be helped by it tune it out because they haven't seen past it yet, and nothing that's said is going to affect my trips - or the vast majority of other peoples trips I expect - in any way at all.  Plus everybody has to take their own journey, and pretty much nothing you can say could prepare them for what that journey really is.

I know I don't agonize in the middle of transcendent trips "is this ego death?"  :shake: I gave all that shit up many years back, after a extended but futile period of trying to accomplish exactly that - demolish ego while tripping.  I just ended up feeling bruised and annoyed as a result.

If you want to lose your ego lose it in meditation.  There at least, while completely sober, you can explore that tiny little time interval that lies between the origin of thought and its absorption by active ego.  There you can see directly how the ego mind is nothing more than a construct built on top of original mind, which pervades the universe (basically), a sort of a lie.  You can see how to turn it off and turn it on if you want to.

I think people who get interested in consciousness manipulation through psychedelics often have a genuine desire to lose the impediments of mundane reality.  Ego mind is attachment in Buddhism.  Attachment brings suffering.  Buddha had it right - end attachment and you end suffering.

It doesn't mean that ending suffering creates bliss.  This is another lie.  What you get instead is peace.  And I'll take that any day. :yinyang2:



I loved reading that so thanks for writing it.


--------------------
Throw down your umbilical noose so I can climb right back

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #25845039 -

These type of discussions can have some value, but yeah, many things just can't be explained into equaling an experience. I daydream sometimes and forget that I exist for awhile. Is our ego "alive" when we dream?

I agree about people's desire to escape the mundane with psychedelics, and that can work. I also think sometimes people concerned with "ego death" really just want to have an experience that helps them change something about themselves they want to change.

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: kabel] * 1
    #25845274 -

kabel said:
redgreenvines said:
when I see a mountain, I do not take it personally. It is a wonderful thing as it is. I do not want to climb it at all.



Fair, some people have less energy and physical health than others. But that does not change the fact that ultimate/peak experiences exist, and if one wants to aim for them they can. To say it's "waisting your ambition" is just judging with your own bias.


and if you pause for a minute to think about it, how would you imagine you might be after you get your ultimate peak experience, the attainment of which you are so highly motivated. So motivated as to assume that all people must also be equally motivated. How did that motivation take root in your mind? How come you are so certain it must take root in another person's mind?

I think that the drug culture lore and the desire for acceptance and belonging are entangled with this obsession with ego death.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25845332 -

redgreenvines said:
and if you pause for a minute to think about it, how would you imagine you might be after you get your ultimate peak experience, the attainment of which you are so highly motivated.


I don't have to imagine, I can just tell you. I usually feel absolutely amazing.

Quote:
So motivated as to assume that all people must also be equally motivated.


I'm fairly positive that most people aren't equally motivated. But I wouldn't discourage anyone who was or call it waisted ambition.

Quote:
How did that motivation take root in your mind?


I expect it's a multifactorial combination of nature and nurture.

Quote:
How come you are so certain it must take root in another person's mind?


Why do you assume to know what I think?

Quote:
I think that the drug culture lore and the desire for acceptance and belonging are entangled with this obsession with ego death.


I don't much like the term ego death. It's not something I would volunteer to describe my experiences, and is more an archetypal suggestion if you have read a lot of Buddhist literature, or Grof's stuff. Much like the Christians in the Good Friday Experiment thought they were visiting Yahweh or Jesus (though it's been a while since I read that paper). If anything my ego comes back stronger and my Plus 4 experiences are more Darwinistic, Gaian, and interestingly Hindu. More of the self is everything, rather than the self is nothing.

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: kabel]
    #25845725 -

I think an obsession with ego death is natural. I think people get a taste maybe dip their foot in the void and thats how it starts. some ego deaths feel more complete than others and there might be a feeling thats theres a final one where the neurotic seeking energy of the I stops circling the drain and just dies permanently



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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Dark_Star]
    #25845729 -

Dark_Star said:
The peak of a true ego death is not something that described in terms of beautiful, wonderful or dark. It can't be described at all, because there is no you. There is no observer & there is no observed. There's no memory of it. If you actually remember the pinnacle of an "ego death" experience, it wasn't really ego death. The parts you remember & attempt to describe are the journey there, and the journey back. What happens in between is a mystery.

I get the pull the newbs are expressing towards it. I was the same way when I was younger, and I did experience true ego death multiple times, and strong ego dissolution more times than I can count. Certainly very misguided, but that fit with headspace & personality at the time. Endless curiousity + the attitude that more is better. And the belief that I knew far more than I did....lack of humility of youth. :smirk: the reality is, as others have stated in this in thread, it's not the be all end all. Whatever experiences you have don't matter nearly as much as what you actually get & integrate from them. Felt a lot of reboots & blank slates earlier on in my psychedelic career......only to return to where I was at before. I've also had a real NDE. Not a "I took a bunch of psychedelics & I felt that died" "NDE", but a genuine one resulting from a heroin overdose. And that experience was different from any psychedelic experience I've had. But I didn't get anything out of it at the time. Wasn't until years later that I actually took something from it & it used it to better my life. Than it became quite profound.

As Northerner has stated, moderate doses are much more beneficial than excessive ones IME. Once you learn to work with the experience it gets a lot easier. And eating 10 strips, or handfuls of dried shrooms isn't learning to work with the experience. It's just taking a ton of drugs. Been there, done that many, many times....with nothing to show for it. A moderate dose every now & again these days...with intent for personal growth has reaped much benefit in my life. Lasting changes that have improved my mental/emotional, physical & spiritual wellbeing....with correlated improvements in my life overall. It's a lot easier to learn about yourself & work through shit when you're actually present in the experience. As fascinating as shattering one's self, and the crazy visuals, etc are, that strong of an experience is just not that conducive to really working through one's shit.

Additionally, you don't need to destroy your ego to get that blank slate effect. Moderate doses are plenty to provide that imprinting period during the comedown. And frankly, it's far more likely that you'll remember what it is that you wanted to imprint if you're not dealing with learning that you're human, have a name, a life, etc, just prior to that phase of the trip.

Less is more, intent is important, set & setting are key. Things are a lot simpler knowing that. I have no desire to take more than moderate doses these days, nor to do it too often. I know what works for me. Even breaking through on DMT. Haven't done so in years, and while I feel the time has come to re-enter that space, I'm definitely not in a rush.

For youngsters & newbs among us, you're obviously not at that point, and are gonna keep chasing it. If & when it happens isn't something you can will, and it's not necessarily dose dependent either. Doesn't matter how much you take compared to the set & setting & whether or not you're just primed for the experience.



There is no ego death. You are either tripping or you blacked out and forgot what was going on. To talk about ego death is just as useful as Joe shmo talking about how everytime he trips he shits his pants. If you have an experience and claim you had "ego death"..rhen congrats you made something up(probably to feel like you fit in)

If you can't explain something and you're not there...then how the fuck can something be something?

To ask a question about ego death is a major jail to human language


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.

It's just a shot away..

Edited by Bill_Oreilly (03/01/19 01:05 PM)

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #25845897 -

mt cleverest said:
I think an obsession with ego death is natural. I think people get a taste maybe dip their foot in the void and thats how it starts. some ego deaths feel more complete than others and there might be a feeling thats theres a final one where the neurotic seeking energy of the I stops circling the drain and just dies permanently



It's funny that it's now though, the latest trend. Remember last year when there was a movement of people asking if they had and seeking break through, and some time before that it was as the pursuit of LVL 5 experiences?

Bill_Oreilly said:
There is no ego death.



Maybe. But I can understand how people try to quantify their experiences with resorting to allegory. Might be a futile endeavour though.


--------------------
We are the music makers, the dreamers of dreams.

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #25846273 -

Quote:
Yes, you have a sort of a definition here.  But what it leaves out is the majority of what Buddhism (among others) teaches - and what you can experience firsthand - that recursive ego-based consciousness isn't the be-all, end-all, and only way of experience.


I think this idea helps answer the implied question of the devil's advocate:

Quote:
if 'you' aren't there during the experience of ego death, how do you experience anything worth talking about and who is there to experience it?


This is partly what makes the experience 'transcendent' - the fact that as 'you' slip away into oblivion for a short time, there is a dawning awareness of another type of consciousness. The 'ego' more or less corresponds to the 'phenomenal self model' in the lingo of neuroscientists such as Metzinger, but it is not the only type of consciousness in the brain.

The 'oceanic' or 'universal' state of mind that looms into consciousness presumably corresponds to meditative states focused on inner radiance e.t.c that are mentioned in buddhist literature such as the Tibetan Book of the Dead... which was the whole idea behind Leary's 'The Psychedelic Experience'.

The buddhist idea that the 'self' is an illusion, along with reality itself, suddenly takes on a new meaning when a new state of consciousness rises up to replace the normal working of your day-to-day sense of self. To me it sometimes feels as though the trip is bringing a clear message that the true nature of reality is consciousness, and the true nature of consciousness is a vast, unified field of pure reality that encompasses the entire universe...

:sunstone:

To get an intense, lurid trip that feels like a journey to the gates of death, followed by oblivion and the rising up of a strange blissful state of mind completely outside your normal experience, followed by the massive backwash of euphoria as you return to your senses and try to make sense of it all in a state of delusional mania ... it makes for quite a trip whether you want to call it 'ego death' or not. :peace:


--------------------
I wrote that, but I meant something else

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Northerner] * 1
    #25846280 -

I am all for metaphoric descriptions, it's just that the term is whacked, undefined and overused.
then used by people who wont define it and whacked around in web forums like this.

I agree with Bill Oreilly to a large degree

anyway it's great to share your expeiences
and best if you can describe what it was like in your own words - it's just terrific.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #25846430 -

Bill_Oreilly said:
There is no ego death. You are either tripping or you blacked out and forgot what was going on. To talk about ego death is just as useful as Joe shmo talking about how everytime he trips he shits his pants. If you have an experience and claim you had "ego death"..rhen congrats you made something up(probably to feel like you fit in)

If you can't explain something and you're not there...then how the fuck can something be something?

To ask a question about ego death is a major jail to human language



Ok ok bill. Clearly beyond a shadow of a doubt they where there. So clearly their perception is highly altered to a state that many people try to describe but fall short. Our language is far to limited in order to convey such a complex idea. Is it valid? I honestly don't know. It might be the single most important thing to us or it can be a turd in a diaper. You've made a choice and so that is true for you.
  You know about hearing the universal humm? Is it shrieking in terror or hystericaly laughing?

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Re: Why the obsession with ego death? [Re: LosTresOjos]
    #25846767 -

Have you guys tried opening a Fight Club?

Have somebody kick the living shit out of you.

That's what i'd call "ego-death".



--------------------

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