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 Mr Piggy
Big Dick Retard
Registered: 09/29/11
Posts: 8,841
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Quote:
Mad Season said:
Kinda surprised nobody's said anything about spraying endospore forming bacillus as a natural pesticide. Bacillus can be used as both a fungicide and insecticide. It's also 100% natural, making it one of the most commonly used pesticides for food grade agriculture. This is one of the reasons why I always bitch about big grains containing bacteria. I haven't considered fungicides, but they're really getting phased out lately for more natural options.
Bacillus thuringiensis is commonly used as an insecticide due to the Ξ΄-endotoxins produced by them. Bacillus subtilis is another very common contaminant in this hobby that is also unbelievably common when it comes to fungus treatments. Both of these extremely common bacteria's are endospore forming and both have potential to survive a PC, if they are given an environment that doesn't get up to temperature for long enough, like potential air pockets in the jar.
As stated in the documents BT is sometimes used early in storage to combat soft bodied larva. Even still, BT degrades incredibly fast once exposed to elements. It would not still be present in the grain.
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack
Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 12,666
Loc: Canada 
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That's toxins. Doesn't account at all for ENDOSPORES.
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Mr Piggy
Big Dick Retard
Registered: 09/29/11
Posts: 8,841
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Quote:
juniperus said:
Bacteria does not have a half-life dude, it's a living organism.
When used as a pesticide it does. BT quickly degrades when exposed to the elements.
Do you have any training in pesticide use?
I do.
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack
Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 12,666
Loc: Canada
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Bacteria endospores are what I'm talking about, rather the germination of bacteria. The toxins won't do shit to myc.
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Mr Piggy
Big Dick Retard
Registered: 09/29/11
Posts: 8,841
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Quote:
Mad Season said:
That's toxins. Doesn't account at all for ENDOSPORES.
Please provide examples of endospores being used as a pesticide and their effective use extending more than a few days.
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack
Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 12,666
Loc: Canada
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Endospores are just a common self defense for endospore forming bacteria. If you spray a field of crops with endospore forming bacteria, after everything dies off, you'll be left with endospores.
Bacillus thuringiensis and Bacillus subtilis both are endospore forming bacteria.
Just lookup Bacillus thuringiensis endospores. It's after all their vegetative cells. (Edit: or rather, lack of :P)
Edited by Mad Season (02/28/19 10:48 AM)
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juniperus
Frim Fram Sauce
Registered: 12/02/18
Posts: 718
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No I don't have training. What I'm saying is half-life is strictly a term used to quantify rate of decay, and it completely ignores important aspects of the biology of a living organism, like reproduction.
All I'm saying is that you wouldn't say "a human has a half-life of x", for instance. But you're correct, you clearly know much more than me on the subject.
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To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind - this is the teaching of the Buddhas
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 BeefSupremeJr
Detritivore
Registered: 11/02/11
Posts: 7,256
Loc: 29.9792Β° N, 31.1342Β° E 
Last seen: 5 hours, 45 minutes
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Even IF they spray it with bt itβs dead in the cooker anyway.
Iβll say this: my job used to be going from farm to farm, namely orchards, vineyards, corn, to inspect for doa. Mostly what I was looking for were violations of ppe storage or access, improper container disposal, or log errors. Mostly itβs about the safety of the applicators more than the environment or greater public exposure.
What I learned is that farmers donβt give a fuck. They can do basically anything chemically to anything with impunity so long as they keep accurate logs and keep the msmβs straight. If they have a Tupperware with a roll of paper towel and soap, that counts as a de-con kit. We would have no way of knowing whether or not ban rot was applied to a crop or to a nearby stream or river, I just go off the logs and look at their inventory. I canβt really even eyeball what five liters looks like out of a 100 liter drum of chems, I just have to take their word for it.
Worst violation I ever wrote was for 7500$ for an entire drum of disulfoton (a restricted use chem) simply βdisappearingβ from a commercial applicators inventory without any record of where it went or why.
My feeling was that it went into an entire 85 acres of crop (illegally) and the guy literally chased me off the property. I was pushing for criminal charges but that was the extent of what I could do litigiously.
If the doa/epa was properly funded, they could have tested and ordered his crop destroyed.
That said. Who the fuck knows whatβs on grains. Probably best to give it a rinse, whatever youβre doing.
Edited by BeefSupremeJr (02/28/19 12:03 PM)
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TedsDead
Registered: 01/03/17
Posts: 5,007
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Quote:
Mad Season said:
Kinda surprised nobody's said anything about spraying endospore forming bacillus as a natural pesticide. Bacillus can be used as both a fungicide and insecticide. It's also 100% natural, making it one of the most commonly used pesticides for food grade agriculture. This is one of the reasons why I always bitch about big grains containing bacteria. I haven't considered fungicides, but they're really getting phased out lately for more natural options.
Bacillus thuringiensis is commonly used as an insecticide due to the Ξ΄-endotoxins produced by them. Bacillus subtilis is another very common contaminant in this hobby that is also unbelievably common when it comes to fungus treatments. Both of these extremely common bacteria's are endospore forming and both have potential to survive a PC, if they are given an environment that doesn't get up to temperature for long enough, like potential air pockets in the jar.
very interesting to know. I've had lots of bacillus in my grain from time to time but never in culture. maybe this is why. I've recently upped my pc times and run the grains a little dryer and see much less.
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weed gets you through times of no money better than money gets you through times of no weed... -the fabulous furry freak bros
If you can buy it, you can burn it!
 https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25947396#25947396
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack
Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 12,666
Loc: Canada
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FWIW, IME, grains overridden with endospores aren't easy to work with. The PC reduces a lot of them, but it doesn't kill them all. True sterilization is something like 1 particle per 1000000000? It's really just probabilities. THere's a reason why people throughout shroomery history preach that you have to inoculate grains immediately, and jars after a couple weeks should just be trashed and restarted.
Quote:
Pastywhyte said:
Organic grain often has endospores added as an alternative to pesticide. I have found with such grain that often a single cycle is not enough and that bacteria can recover and become noticable in as little as a few days or as long as a few weeks as two weeks. When I started doing muda style bottles it was strange because you could see the bacteria pop up around some of the grains like little satellites. Became suddenly very easy to see what was happening.
When spawning such grain its my experience that you often cannot smell them, yet they will inhibit recovery enough for molds to move in. Sometimes a very high spawn ratio could help but not always. My solution was a two part sterilization which did the best job.
Also its worth noting that I stopped overnight soaking two years ago.
Quote:
Pastywhyte said:
Quote:
Wydue Wanano said:
This is the first mention I've ever heard of "invisible contams." If an endospore is so damaged it can't reproduce, isn't it essentially dead? What effect do these have on growth if they are not reproducing?
Endospores germinate into bacteria, the bacteria reproduces and some of them become endospores when conditions deteriorate. A damaged endospore is perfectly capable of recovering but it does take time. When we "sterilize" we actually don't kill all the endospores. You would need to run an 8 hour PC cycle to do that. We damage them enough to provide a "window with which to colonize". But there is always a possibility that a couple can recover and start problems. Usually this means poor to no colonization of some grains which are then easy pickings for mold.
Most of the time I doubt people even realize this is happening. But it does. To fully kill all endospores you need to go to pretty extreme lengths. Incidentally this is why GLC is a terrible idea.
Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
'Sterilizing' for 90 minutes gives a window of opportunity to get your grains colonized before surviving organisms can get a foothold. It's not absolute sterilization, which would take up to 24 hours and ruin the grains.
RR
Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Quote:
but since a pressure cook at 90 min kills all forms of mold and bacterial
Says who? My experience shows otherwise.
RR
I mean there's many others, and I've had many conversations with people about this. I still stand by the fact that a dirty ass grain like say popcorn which harbors more endospores is an unnecessary risk.
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BeefSupremeJr
Detritivore
Registered: 11/02/11
Posts: 7,256
Loc: 29.9792Β° N, 31.1342Β° E
Last seen: 5 hours, 45 minutes
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Okay. Wow I just learned a lot thanks mad season.
Sssoooo, you donβt like oats? I did lose a jar of pe last run.. definitely to bac...
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gizmodo
Woodland Creature
Registered: 06/21/18
Posts: 2,064
Loc: Behind You
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
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Thanks for the insight. 
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MildlyInsane
Stranger
Registered: 12/10/18
Posts: 24
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
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Very interesting thread, and enjoying the discussion. When I was doing a lot of research here a couple months back, I came across a similar thread that had a lot of great information on these topics. I can't seem to find it unfortunately, but I'll keep digging and post a link if I come across it.
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack
Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 12,666
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
BeefSupremeJr said:
Okay. Wow I just learned a lot thanks mad season.
Sssoooo, you donβt like oats? I did lose a jar of pe last run.. definitely to bac...
I use oats. I just prefer oats that aren't treated with bacteria lol. If you find your current oats are bacterial af, try switching brands or try a different grain. Some places don't treat their shit with bacteria. Pasty gets his grains (wheat) right from the farmer and has had literally 0 issues with contams since. When I ran oats I always PC'd for at least 2 hours. It would work most of the time. I find the places that wash their oats generally are better.
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juniperus
Frim Fram Sauce
Registered: 12/02/18
Posts: 718
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Quote:
HEEBSHOUSE said:
Sorry guys but i learned nothing from this at all.
Learn anything yet?  I have
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To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind - this is the teaching of the Buddhas
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nube424
Registered: 12/03/17
Posts: 6,063
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This thread turned from a noob thread into an info filled thread. If he didn't learn anything by now, there's no helping him lol. Jk ok. But syringe to grain will not give u 100% success rate. Maybe between 40%-80%... but could be as low as 0% and as high as 100%
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TedsDead
Registered: 01/03/17
Posts: 5,007
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this is so relevant for me. good info
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weed gets you through times of no money better than money gets you through times of no weed... -the fabulous furry freak bros
If you can buy it, you can burn it!
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25947396#25947396
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