Mad Season said:

Kinda surprised nobody's said anything about spraying endospore forming bacillus as a natural pesticide. Bacillus can be used as both a fungicide and insecticide. It's also 100% natural, making it one of the most commonly used pesticides for food grade agriculture. This is one of the reasons why I always bitch about big grains containing bacteria. I haven't considered fungicides, but they're really getting phased out lately for more natural options.

Bacillus thuringiensis is commonly used as an insecticide due to the δ-endotoxins produced by them. Bacillus subtilis is another very common contaminant in this hobby that is also unbelievably common when it comes to fungus treatments. Both of these extremely common bacteria's are endospore forming and both have potential to survive a PC, if they are given an environment that doesn't get up to temperature for long enough, like potential air pockets in the jar.

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juniperus said:

Bacteria does not have a half-life dude, it's a living organism.

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Mad Season said:

That's toxins. Doesn't account at all for ENDOSPORES.

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Mad Season said:

Kinda surprised nobody's said anything about spraying endospore forming bacillus as a natural pesticide. Bacillus can be used as both a fungicide and insecticide. It's also 100% natural, making it one of the most commonly used pesticides for food grade agriculture. This is one of the reasons why I always bitch about big grains containing bacteria. I haven't considered fungicides, but they're really getting phased out lately for more natural options.

Bacillus thuringiensis is commonly used as an insecticide due to the δ-endotoxins produced by them. Bacillus subtilis is another very common contaminant in this hobby that is also unbelievably common when it comes to fungus treatments. Both of these extremely common bacteria's are endospore forming and both have potential to survive a PC, if they are given an environment that doesn't get up to temperature for long enough, like potential air pockets in the jar.

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Pastywhyte said:

Organic grain often has endospores added as an alternative to pesticide. I have found with such grain that often a single cycle is not enough and that bacteria can recover and become noticable in as little as a few days or as long as a few weeks as two weeks. When I started doing muda style bottles it was strange because you could see the bacteria pop up around some of the grains like little satellites. Became suddenly very easy to see what was happening.

When spawning such grain its my experience that you often cannot smell them, yet they will inhibit recovery enough for molds to move in. Sometimes a very high spawn ratio could help but not always. My solution was a two part sterilization which did the best job.

Also its worth noting that I stopped overnight soaking two years ago.

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Pastywhyte said:

Wydue Wanano said:

This is the first mention I've ever heard of "invisible contams." If an endospore is so damaged it can't reproduce, isn't it essentially dead? What effect do these have on growth if they are not reproducing?

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Endospores germinate into bacteria, the bacteria reproduces and some of them become endospores when conditions deteriorate. A damaged endospore is perfectly capable of recovering but it does take time. When we "sterilize" we actually don't kill all the endospores. You would need to run an 8 hour PC cycle to do that. We damage them enough to provide a "window with which to colonize". But there is always a possibility that a couple can recover and start problems. Usually this means poor to no colonization of some grains which are then easy pickings for mold.

Most of the time I doubt people even realize this is happening. But it does. To fully kill all endospores you need to go to pretty extreme lengths. Incidentally this is why GLC is a terrible idea.

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BeefSupremeJr said:

Okay.  Wow I just learned a lot thanks mad season. 

Sssoooo, you don’t like oats?  I did lose a jar of pe last run.. definitely  to bac...

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HEEBSHOUSE said:

Sorry guys but i learned nothing from this at all.

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Learn anything yet? I have