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Novelty is fundamental to uncertainty
    #25835873 -

The concept of new (novelty) is fundamental to the concept of uncertainty.

One cannot exist without the other.
Can you prove this statement wrong?


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Re: Novelty is fundamental to uncertainty [Re: hTx]
    #25835926 -

Maybe, once i understand everything...

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Re: Novelty is fundamental to uncertainty [Re: DisoRDeR]
    #25835943 -

Haha good answer man.


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Re: Novelty is fundamental to uncertainty [Re: DisoRDeR]
    #25835944 -

At first glance

New implies the production of a result that was previously unknown.
Certainty implies results previously known but whose reproducibility is unknown.
One is more statistical projection where the other is a quality.

You can generate results where you were uncertain what you would find but nothing new is found.
You can generate results where you were certain what you would find and nothing new is found.

Is newness fundamental to result generation?

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Re: Novelty is fundamental to uncertainty [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25835949 -

Or new is simply the quality of being new.
It could be as you say it implies if not for the big bang.
The newest and the oldest event, being the original and all.


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Re: Novelty is fundamental to uncertainty [Re: hTx]
    #25835954 -

So nothing is new under the sun?

"What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun."...Ecclesiastes 1:9

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Re: Novelty is fundamental to uncertainty [Re: hTx]
    #25835955 -

you absolutely cannot generate the exact same
results with zero degree of novelty.

Meaning there's newness in every moment. And,for logics sake, if you are uncertain of results, the result by definition must be new.


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Re: Novelty is fundamental to uncertainty [Re: hTx]
    #25835965 -

At the heart of quantum mechanics is quantum uncertainty.

At the heart of uncertainty is novelty. The quality of being new implies something that cannot be known (get it? Because something known cannot be new. Therefore newness is a quality not only of the future, but of the present.) , Hence uncertainty.

Such a fundamental quality implies the universe is actually infinite, that there is some driving force of newness and complexity derived from it's memory.


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Re: Novelty is fundamental to uncertainty [Re: hTx]
    #25835970 -

Or are we simply oblivious to the plan?
Is information the unfolding of something greater than our perception can comprehend?

In such a case, novelty is fundamental to being human.


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Re: Novelty is fundamental to uncertainty [Re: hTx]
    #25836008 -

2+2=4, that result is not new, never will be new again. The context the answer is derived in is and will be forever new. Anything and everything is new when the greater context is considered and each parameter within that framework considered - it's a new 4 in a new time and place written in new code in a new post for example.

hTx said:
you absolutely cannot generate the exact same
results with zero degree of novelty.

Meaning there's newness in every moment. And,for logics sake, if you are uncertain of results, the result by definition must be new.


You can pre-empt or pre-know what might eventuate as results and be uncertain which one will eventuate eg. lottery, games of chance etc. This was the level of uncertainty I was referring to.

If you break your expectations of results down to binary level eg. yes or no, on or off, success or failure, you're always going to be certain of one or the other - if you know the result is going to be one of these is the result new or the form of the result new?

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Re: Novelty is fundamental to uncertainty [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25836179 -

general cognitive uncertainty(-a) differs from the precision limits that quantum uncertainty(-b) imposes.

in a general case of cognitive uncertainty (-a-), a person cannot get comfortable with identification of what is happening and choosing a path to handle events (new or strange elements stand in our way). we can become uncertain how to associate what we experience with what we know.

with quantum uncertainty(-b), a scientist can determine the results of experiments in all (macro)cases that are related to non-subatomic aspects of events. There is virtually no uncertainty as regards the scientists' mental associative processes in everything else except what they are looking for when their experiments run. There is uncertainty when attempting to extend the subatomic models to the macro world, but this seems to be helping to determine relationships with time and gravity (two big areas with related uncertainty). There will be a brief explosion of cognitive uncertainty when something new is actually detected in the lab.

Labs that find sub atomic (quantum) truths are usually massive expensive magnetic rings like the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) which is the world’s largest and most powerful particle accelerator. It consists of a 27-kilometre ring of superconducting magnets with a number of accelerating structures to boost the energy of the particles along the way.

There is very little uncertainty in those huge structures, except for what they might find one day.

Not enough new has been found to justify the expense of building these labs.


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Re: Novelty is fundamental to uncertainty [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25838087 -

You can be certain of novelty..?

No..?


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Re: Novelty is fundamental to uncertainty [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #25838572 -

I work at novelty personally, a lot, but I don't reference quantum uncertainty as a reasoning for anything.


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Re: Novelty is fundamental to uncertainty [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25838578 -

What is quantum? I never grasped or understand it. How does it work? Can you explain in simple ways? Thanks.

I'm new to this site and love philosophy.

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Re: Novelty is fundamental to uncertainty [Re: hTx]
    #25839049 -

the ethnosociology of the narod and the ethnos explains this well enough.

Edited by akira_akuma (02/26/19 02:39 PM)

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Re: Novelty is fundamental to uncertainty [Re: akira_akuma]
    #25839067 -

I don't understand any of that. :confused:

Can you explain more detailed?

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Re: Novelty is fundamental to uncertainty [Re: Pinkerton]
    #25839253 -

the ethnos is always certain. uncertainty is of the narod. the narod always strives for the 'destruction of the new', which it itself is, and yet doesn't realize.

explains alot. including anti-semitism.

Edited by akira_akuma (02/26/19 05:04 PM)

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Re: Novelty is fundamental to uncertainty [Re: akira_akuma]
    #25839317 -

no it does not explain so much,
anyway, for quantum ideas go to a physics phorum


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Re: Novelty is fundamental to uncertainty [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25839405 -

redgreenvines, make an argument that pertains to what you are trying to attack.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/narod -- (eg, a race of peoples who, in ethnosociological terms, have vacated the ethnocentrum and have inculcated new forms of culture -- soon after comes the nation, in it's artifice, historically brought about by narods with cattle-driving ethnoses taken as servants -- eventually leading to slavery with the advent of civilizations' colonization in these beginning stages.)

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%94%CE%B8%CE%BD%CE%BF%CF%82 -- (ie, demos, but 'demos' only in relation to the narod.)

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%AD%CE%B8%CE%BD%CE%BF%CF%82 (ethnos but as the progress of ethnodynamics reaches a point of ethnokinetic fruition)

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Koine (ie, in ethnosociological terms of a race of peoples, "koineme", eg, a common source language which is shared in the ethnos of a koineme and makes said "koineme".)


a koineme is a language. in the dispersal of language (words as objects seen with 'action value') we construct structures of cultures from their original ethnos, and as this process (through ethnostatics, ethnodynamics, and at the final stage, ethnokinetics) breaks through the ethnocentrum, a narod is created. this is the beginning of the Tower Of Babel story.

this relates to the OP.

please...do your reading.

Edited by akira_akuma (02/26/19 05:11 PM)

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Re: Novelty is fundamental to uncertainty [Re: akira_akuma]
    #25839454 -

I think you're wrong, Akira. :thumbdown:

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Re: Novelty is fundamental to uncertainty [Re: Pinkerton] * 1
    #25839467 -

Hey quantum ideas can be philosophy, just look at Timothy Leary and Robert Anton Wilson.
@RGV

Quantum Uncertainty tells us that the universe has a quality of uncertainty to it, no matter what you do or how you measure, there will be limits to the precision of measurement hence always a level of uncertainty.

It's not a limit of knowledge or precision technology, it's an inherent quality of the universe.


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Re: Novelty is fundamental to uncertainty [Re: akira_akuma]
    #25839552 -

Pinkerton said:
I think you're wrong, Akira. :thumbdown:


i think you need to provide a counterargument to make that kind of claim, Pinkerton.
akira_akuma said:
redgreenvines, make an argument that pertains to what you are trying to attack.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/narod -- (eg, a race of peoples who, in ethnosociological terms, have vacated the ethnocentrum and have inculcated new forms of culture -- soon after comes the nation, in it's artifice, historically brought about by narods with cattle-driving ethnoses taken as servants -- eventually leading to slavery with the advent of civilizations' colonization in these beginning stages.)

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%94%CE%B8%CE%BD%CE%BF%CF%82 -- (ie, demos, but 'demos' only in relation to the narod.)

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%AD%CE%B8%CE%BD%CE%BF%CF%82 (ethnos but as the progress of ethnodynamics reaches a point of ethnokinetic fruition)

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Koine (ie, in ethnosociological terms of a race of peoples, "koineme", eg, a common source language which is shared in the ethnos of a koineme and makes said "koineme".)


a koineme is a language. in the dispersal of language (words as objects seen with 'action value') we construct structures of cultures from their original ethnos, and as this process (through ethnostatics, ethnodynamics, and at the final stage, ethnokinetics) breaks through the ethnocentrum, a narod is created. this is the beginning of the Tower Of Babel story.

this relates to the OP.

please...do your reading.


Quote:
the ethnos is always certain. uncertainty is of the narod. the narod always strives for the 'destruction of the new', which it itself is, and yet doesn't realize.

explains alot. including anti-semitism.



here you go. give it a go. i've rephrased some things, underlined some new things, etc.

Edited by akira_akuma (02/26/19 05:11 PM)

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Re: Novelty is fundamental to uncertainty [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #25839635 -

Interesting. The bearers of culture; I was thinking about this the other day.
I would think if I hadn't read that there are/were probably mutants of considerable difference in intelligence compared to the average. The Bell curve likely repeats throughout all species on different scales. Only, in all species besides humanity, they died and their works with them. The average lives on throughout time, the species is stable, little novelty occurs and if it does it dies within a generation.
Humanity: we can advance knowledge because early in our evolution some of these mutants or maybe and likely just one probably invented an alphabet and writing/language. The bearer(s) of language.

We can write.
Boom, knowledge expands at an exponential rate.
Our species becomes stochastic. We evolve our intelligence as a whole when one genius comes along and discovers everything and shares it with the entire future of our species.
Increasing uncertainty AND novelty to exponential rates.
McKenna was obviously wrong when he talked of the singularity having a specific time when it manifests. It already is.
There's no limit to complexity and novelty, only our perception of it. If you stop so does it, to you.


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Re: Novelty is fundamental to uncertainty [Re: hTx]
    #25839774 -

well, our conscious inflection through the cosmos (with free will and deterministic qualities, of course) is a can be a self-reflective object of conception itself, a "history" in it's own right, only we have the "history" we read in our own lives, and the history we make in the breaking off of the narod from the ethnocentrum [which is concurrently shown to be the case, in every instance]. someone, somewhere decided all the things we carry with us.

i call it "societies rucksack".

Edited by akira_akuma (02/26/19 08:02 PM)

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Re: Novelty is fundamental to uncertainty [Re: akira_akuma]
    #25839869 -

I can see why you think that way.
Quote:
consciousness is a self-reflective object of conception itself


meaning that conception contains consciousness,
yet the other way around

"conception is contained in consciousness, and occasionally the conception is about consciousness or even a reflection of consciousness or a reflection of itself.",

makes much more sense to me


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Re: Novelty is fundamental to uncertainty [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25839943 -

yeah, well, that's well and good and all. i appreciate your indications and i must say, i agree. i was putting things figuratively, of course, when i said what i said. i was referring to it's "history" [and symbolizing it as a different history than that of a historicism, of the narod].

but yes, what you said is agreeable.

but what of history?

[ps: i added some poetic license to make distinctions between my figure of speech and the notion of 'consciousness as concept' as differentiated from 'concept-as-consciousness' - and might add that the notion i wish to condense here is that of the process of "memory" and how it's interactions function in this strata of effects - which is what i'm pertaining to when i speak of "history" in the indicative stance therein by way of my tacit airquotes. :grin: ]

here is a diagram to make distinct the sort of memoragic 'play of effects' qua the ethnos and it's reaction in society in it's various outgrowths of the split of the ethnocentrum.



Quote:
What you posted explains nothing of quantum mechanisms.


is OP talking about quantum physics? or are you?

your lacking apprehension...frightens me for the worlds' posterity.

Edited by akira_akuma (02/27/19 11:57 AM)

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Re: Novelty is fundamental to uncertainty [Re: akira_akuma]
    #25840716 -

akira_akuma said:
Pinkerton said:
I think you're wrong, Akira. :thumbdown:


i think you need to provide a counterargument to make that kind of claim, Pinkerton.


What you posted explains nothing of quantum mechanisms.

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Re: Novelty is fundamental to uncertainty [Re: Pinkerton]
    #25842105 -

So we can talk about what portion of quantum mechanics is novel..


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Re: Novelty is fundamental to uncertainty [Re: Pinkerton]
    #25842506 -

Pinkerton said:
akira_akuma said:
Pinkerton said:
I think you're wrong, Akira. :thumbdown:


i think you need to provide a counterargument to make that kind of claim, Pinkerton.


What you posted explains nothing of quantum mechanisms.


uh, this thread isn't about quantum mechanics, is it?

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Re: Novelty is fundamental to uncertainty [Re: akira_akuma]
    #25842731 -

You're right. My bad. I'm slow. :wink:

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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