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OfflineSource
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Primordial Intelligence
    #2583551 - 04/20/04 05:13 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

In a very generalized summation of history, we have gone from believing that an intelligent creator directly created all things including life to believing that a natural/blind process is responsible for all creation. This latter view is widely (though not exclusively) held to be atheistic or at least agnostic.

But what has really changed? Is not the fact that the universe evolved into a system which is capable of creating life and sustaining it worthy of the same kind of wonder that we traditionally only held for God?

According to the general model everything began as a single energy/force which differentiated into the four fundamental forces responsible for the micro and macro structure we know as the universe.
Contained in this primordial force was (is) everything required to create galaxies, stars, planets, bacteria, ferns, lizards, humans, music, mathematics, poetry, religion, science, cities and computers.

To create life from a single force, is this not supreme intelligence? Is this not even more awe inspiring than mankind's previous notion about a "God in a workshop" directly creating life?


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What you're searching for is what's searching.


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Offlinegotmagog
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Re: Primordial Intelligence [Re: Source]
    #2583606 - 04/20/04 05:28 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Well, something exists outside of rationality and science. There is for me definitely a force of creation and life.

And it is a matter of personal faith whether it is a wise old man like in christianity, or an abstract nature force. The point is, there exists something out there which caused life on Earth, I can't buy the most atheistic scientific theories of self organizing molecules by chance.


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Primordial Intelligence [Re: Source]
    #2583638 - 04/20/04 05:37 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Source said:
Is not the fact that the universe evolved into a system which is capable of creating life and sustaining it worthy of the same kind of wonder that we traditionally only held for God?






:heart: you


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Primordial Intelligence [Re: Source]
    #2584497 - 04/20/04 10:18 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Both scenarios assume a creation. This is merely mappng our own knowledge of human life onto something distinctly non-human. Another real possibility is that the universes was NOT created and always was, is and ever will be.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleTrueBrode
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Re: Primordial Intelligence [Re: Swami]
    #2584559 - 04/20/04 10:30 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

But it's so painful to think that the universe just is. Why why why? I need answers.


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OfflineSource
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Re: Primordial Intelligence [Re: TrueBrode]
    #2585065 - 04/21/04 12:57 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Aw, come on Swami! It's general scientific knowlege that the universe is expanding (Hubble's red shift, general relativity, etc.). If the universe is expanding, common sense would dictate a 'beginning'.

But let's forget that for a moment. Even in a steady state universe that 'always was and ever will be', we have essentially the same situation. Here we are - living, breathing beings. My main point is that it doesn't really matter if the creation of life is the result of direct creation by a supernatural agent or of a natural process. I am in awe of life and the incredible intelligence behind it however it came to be.


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What you're searching for is what's searching.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Primordial Intelligence [Re: Source]
    #2586985 - 04/21/04 03:14 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

It is not general scientific "knowledge" that the Universe is expanding. General Scientific *theory* perhaps, but keep in mind that a really solid scientific theory doesn't equate fact, no matter how plausible it sounds.


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OfflineSource
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Re: Primordial Intelligence [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2587362 - 04/21/04 05:10 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

O.K., it's general scientific 'theory' that the universe is expanding.


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What you're searching for is what's searching.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Primordial Intelligence [Re: Source]
    #2587464 - 04/21/04 05:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Just because we're able to use science to explain the reason for the existence of the universe doesn't mean there isn't some supremely intelligent being responsible for it all.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Primordial Intelligence [Re: Source]
    #2587565 - 04/21/04 06:14 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Source said:
Aw, come on Swami!  It's general scientific knowlege that the universe is expanding (Hubble's red shift, general relativity, etc.).  If the universe is expanding, common sense would dictate a 'beginning'.




Well, the universe could be breathing :wink: .. or maybe the Universe.....

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Primordial Intelligence [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2589681 - 04/22/04 03:17 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
or maybe the Universe.....
Peace. :mushroom2:




wasn't supposed to exist...  :wink: :smirk: :cool:


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You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineCather
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Re: Primordial Intelligence [Re: trendal]
    #2590104 - 04/22/04 09:32 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

hmmmmmmmmmmmm just because the universe is expanding now doesnt mean it always was . maybe it expends then contracts the theres a big bang etc etcetc repeat and rinse :smile:


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Primordial Intelligence [Re: Cather]
    #2590127 - 04/22/04 09:47 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

yes the universe is breathing.
it expands, pauses, and contracts
That is the infinite breath of all creation


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OfflineSource
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Re: Primordial Intelligence [Re: Shroomism]
    #2590533 - 04/22/04 12:14 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Whether the universe is infinitely steady, oscillates (my favorite idea), or was created outright complete with life in all it's various forms by an exterior intelligence (the least likely in my opinion), the fact remains that life is evidence of an intelligence worthy of wonder.


--------------------
What you're searching for is what's searching.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Primordial Intelligence [Re: trendal]
    #2590691 - 04/22/04 12:53 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Quote:

fireworks_god said:
or maybe the Universe.....
Peace. :mushroom2:




wasn't supposed to exist...  :wink: :smirk: :cool:




Hey now, I left that trailed off like that for a reason. :mad:

:grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlineseeker
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Re: Primordial Intelligence [Re: Cather]
    #2591242 - 04/22/04 03:38 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I think that in considering the big bang one should also consider the role of "black holes". Consider the idea that while everything in the universe is rapidly moving away from everything else, we have these areas of space coming into existence where large amounts of mater are being packed in as tight as possible with, theoretically, no end in sight. What we would have are never ending gravity wells that continue to exist even as new ones are formed, and which eventually, I think, would be swallowed into another taking everything back to square one.

Pure speculation, but as plausible as anything else.


--------------------
In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom.

Thou art God (but so am i :wink:)


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