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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Supporting our troops
    #2582948 - 04/20/04 03:09 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Ever notice how in America, you have to support the troops? Even if you're a dove, you have to say something like "I support the troops, but not the war," or else you're deemed unpatriotic. Well, in the words of Bill Hicks, "Excuse me, aren't you all fucking hired killers?!"


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2583112 - 04/20/04 03:43 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I support the troops. Just not the way in which they're being used.






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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Learyfan]
    #2583124 - 04/20/04 03:44 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I used to think like that, but then it dawned on me that I don't want to support hired killers.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2583225 - 04/20/04 04:03 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I'm curious, silversoul7 --

1) Would you prefer hired killers defend you or drafted killers?

2) Were those who invaded Hitler's Europe hired killers?

pinky


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Phred]
    #2583235 - 04/20/04 04:06 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
I'm curious, silversoul7 --

1) Would you prefer hired killers defend you or drafted killers?

2) Were those who invaded Hitler's Europe hired killers?

pinky



1. Neither. I would prefer an armed populace defending their own borders.

2. Yes they were. It happened to have certain positive outcomes, but that doesn't change the fact that they were hired killers.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2583238 - 04/20/04 04:07 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

That makes sense, but sometimes killing is nessessary.

I think if our troops were used properly, you might not see them as hired killers.




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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Learyfan]
    #2583244 - 04/20/04 04:08 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I think if our troops were used properly, you might not see them as hired killers.



No, they'd still be hired killers. They'd just be hired killers fighting for a "good cause."


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2583301 - 04/20/04 04:19 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

silversoul7 writes:

Neither. I would prefer an armed populace defending their own borders.

How are these citizens to learn how to fly jets, pilot ships, operate tanks and anti-aircraft guns and SAM missiles and stuff? Who is to maintain that stuff?

Yes they were. It happened to have certain positive outcomes, but that doesn't change the fact that they were hired killers.

And as such, not worthy of your support. Okay then.

pinky


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Phred]
    #2583332 - 04/20/04 04:24 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
silversoul7 writes:

Neither. I would prefer an armed populace defending their own borders.

How are these citizens to learn how to fly jets, pilot ships, operate tanks and anti-aircraft guns and SAM missiles and stuff? Who is to maintain that stuff?



Do we really need that stuff to defend our borders? The strategy of an armed populace seems to have worked out quite well for Switzerland.

Quote:

Yes they were. It happened to have certain positive outcomes, but that doesn't change the fact that they were hired killers.

And as such, not worthy of your support. Okay then.



I'm not saying I'm going to judge them either, but I don't see why I need to act like they're such fucking heroes for killing other hired killers.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2583419 - 04/20/04 04:40 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
The strategy of an armed populace seems to have worked out quite well for Switzerland.




Aren't the Swiss neutral? Don't they have a non-interventionist military policy? Don't they refrain from propping up dictators?


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Evolving]
    #2583422 - 04/20/04 04:41 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
The strategy of an armed populace seems to have worked out quite well for Switzerland.




Aren't the Swiss neutral? Don't they have a non-interventionist military policy? Don't they refrain from propping up dictators?



Ya, pretty horrible, huh?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2583452 - 04/20/04 04:48 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Would you expect any less from the country that invented LSD?




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Offlinefaelr
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2583499 - 04/20/04 05:00 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

fuck our troops fuck 'em right up the ass!
sorry to any of my family members still involved in the war....fuck you.


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where i walk, i walk alone. when i fight, i fight alone. i am no one and i am nothing. yet all is that i am.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: faelr]
    #2583504 - 04/20/04 05:00 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

wow


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Offlinejrod38182
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: faelr]
    #2583653 - 04/20/04 05:44 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

  :thumbdown: :thumbdown:  :nonono:


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POLITICS, n. A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. The conduct of public affairs for private advantage.
Ambrose. Devils Dictionary


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2583667 - 04/20/04 05:49 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Ever notice how in America, you have to support the troops? Even if you're a dove, you have to say something like "I support the troops, but not the war," or else you're deemed unpatriotic. Well, in the words of Bill Hicks, "Excuse me, aren't you all fucking hired killers?!"





Explain to me how a cook is a "hired killer". Explain to me how a mechanic is a "hired killer". Explain to me how an armorer is a "hired killer". Explain to me how the captain of a naval vessel is a "hired killer". Explain to me how the vast majority of people in the military who aren't tasked with killing people are "hired killers". Explain to me how the vast majority of the people who are in combat positions, yet never kill a person, are "hired killers".


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2583694 - 04/20/04 05:59 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Do you think that cooks, mechanics, armorers, etc. comprise the majority of our troops? Also, when people talk about "supporting our troops," they're usually talking about the ones who are out there killing people.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2583749 - 04/20/04 06:18 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Do you think that cooks, mechanics, armorers, etc. comprise the majority of our troops?




A thinking man is dangerous, a knowing man is deadly. Do YOU 'think' that the majority of our armed forces are actually combat staff? Because I 'know' that that isn't true.
Quote:


Also, when people talk about "supporting our troops," they're usually talking about the ones who are out there killing people.



So, if you think that the man who faught the nazis were still hired killers, do you believe that they deserve respect? If so, you've hit the root of it. The man in the armed forces don't really choose where they go, they just go. I support the family members of US citizens who are being used in the war. I don't want them to die, and I want them to stay alive, thus, "support". If you still think that the men in WWII were hired killers, and in a way, they certaintly were, but you respect them, then you are admitting that the troops, tho they be "hired killers" are worth of respect. It's no more a soldiers choice today who he is fighting than it was years ago.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2583770 - 04/20/04 06:25 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

A thinking man is dangerous, a knowing man is deadly. Do YOU 'think' that the majority of our armed forces are actually combat staff? Because I 'know' that that isn't true.



No, I think the majority are reserves or are stationed somewhere, but I think the majority of those deployed to combat areas are combat troops. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

Quote:

So, if you think that the man who faught the nazis were still hired killers, do you believe that they deserve respect?



Yes. They deserve the same amount of respect as any other human being, including the Nazis they killed.

Quote:

The man in the armed forces don't really choose where they go, they just go



True, but they choose to go into a profession which requires them to kill people when ordered to do so.

Quote:

I support the family members of US citizens who are being used in the war. I don't want them to die, and I want them to stay alive, thus, "support".



If that's how you define support, then I withdraw my statement. I don't wish death upon anyone on either side.

Quote:

If you still think that the men in WWII were hired killers, and in a way, they certaintly were, but you respect them, then you are admitting that the troops, tho they be "hired killers" are worth of respect.



Of course, but so is everybody else.

Quote:

It's no more a soldiers choice today who he is fighting than it was years ago.



True, but he makes the choice to go into the fighting profession.


--------------------


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2583790 - 04/20/04 06:33 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
No, I think the majority are reserves or are stationed somewhere, but I think the majority of those deployed to combat areas are combat troops. Correct me if I'm wrong here.




I don't think I could say for sure. It depends on what you define as combat, and combat support positions. For example, every man on a tank crew is in a "Combat position", tho one man doesn't do anything but driving. Albeit, he's drive a 500 ton killing machine, but he doesn't kill, directly.
Quote:


Yes. They deserve the same amount of respect as any other human being, including the Nazis they killed.




A man running a gas chamber killing innocent Jews deserves as much respect as a man liberating the camp? I don't really think so.
Quote:


If that's how you define support, then I withdraw my statement. I don't wish death upon anyone on either side.




You actually haven't made a statement, other than to say that not supporting the US troops is considered unpatriotic. Reading your inital post a few times over, I can't see anything about your actual position. Do you think that people can support our troops, but not the war? If you think so, then aren't people that don't support even our troops unpatriotic? If not, what DO you consider unpatriotic activies?
Quote:


Of course, but so is everybody else.




Ah, so you are saying that you have nothing but respect for BushCo, right? and Hitler, Stalin, pal pot, Idi Amin, the list goes on... you "respect" them, right?


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2583793 - 04/20/04 06:33 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I support them because they are putting their lives on the line to make the world a better place. There will never be a world without violence, so it is always necessary to use some violence to prevent widespread violence. Our troops disarmed a threat (or at least what we had believed was a threat) and now they are trying to bring democracy and a better quality of life to the people they are temporarily occupying. They deserve a thanks.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2583809 - 04/20/04 06:43 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I don't think I could say for sure. It depends on what you define as combat, and combat support positions. For example, every man on a tank crew is in a "Combat position", tho one man doesn't do anything but driving. Albeit, he's drive a 500 ton killing machine, but he doesn't kill, directly.



Sounds similar to the guy driving the car in a drive-by shooting.

Quote:

A man running a gas chamber killing innocent Jews deserves as much respect as a man liberating the camp? I don't really think so.



You're entitled to your opinion, but IMO all humans deserve equal respect. Note, however, that respect and admiration are different things. I certainly don't admire the guy running the gas chamber, but I respect him as a human being.

Quote:

You actually haven't made a statement, other than to say that not supporting the US troops is considered unpatriotic. Reading your inital post a few times over, I can't see anything about your actual position. Do you think that people can support our troops, but not the war? If you think so, then aren't people that don't support even our troops unpatriotic? If not, what DO you consider unpatriotic activies?



It depends on what is meant by support, but if you mean not wanting them to die, as was implied by your previous post, then it certainly is possible to support the troops but not the war. However, when I say I don't support the Bush administration, I don't mean I want them to die, so I don't think that definition works very well. I think, then, that "supporting the troops" would mean supporting what they do, which I don't, and I can't see how you could do that and still be against the war.

Quote:

Ah, so you are saying that you have nothing but respect for BushCo, right? and Hitler, Stalin, pal pot, Idi Amin, the list goes on... you "respect" them, right?



Absolutely. I respect them as human beings, even though I abhor the things they've done.


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2583869 - 04/20/04 07:06 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
You're entitled to your opinion, but IMO all humans deserve equal respect. Note, however, that respect and admiration are different things. I certainly don't admire the guy running the gas chamber, but I respect him as a human being.




re?spect ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-spkt)
tr.v. re?spect?ed, re?spect?ing, re?spects
To feel or show deferential regard for; esteem.
To avoid violation of or interference with: respect the speed limit.
To relate or refer to; concern.

Which of those definitions do you apply to the nazi gas chamber workers? "esteem"?

Quote:


It depends on what is meant by support, but if you mean not wanting them to die, as was implied by your previous post, then it certainly is possible to support the troops but not the war. However, when I say I don't support the Bush administration, I don't mean I want them to die, so I don't think that definition works very well.




Good point.
Quote:


I think, then, that "supporting the troops" would mean supporting what they do, which I don't, and I can't see how you could do that and still be against the war.




Ok, how about this. IF you supported the troops (or would , in theory) in Nazi Germany, that means that you don't, per se, remove them from the 'support' category simply because they are, as Hicks put it "hired killers". Now, since these men (in the WWII Era) joined the military to kill people, and not knowing exactly what "enemy" they'd be fighting, that means that you support them simply because they were in the military doing "the right thing". However, the men back then, and the men today, don't have a CHOICE as to what they are doing in the military (i.e. where they are fighting, who they are fighting). This is why, be they troops fighting at the Frozen Chosen, Guadalcanal, Iwo Jima, or Baghdad, they deserve our "support". They might have chosen to go into the military, they might even get off on killing people, but they have nothing to do with where they are fighting. Either you support them because they aer Americans that are doing their job, which includes the fact that you must recognize that they don't have any say as to where they go, or you don't.

Just to clarify something;
[p]sup?port ( P ) Pronunciation Key (s-p?rt, -prt)
tr.v. sup?port?ed, sup?port?ing, sup?ports
To bear the weight of, especially from below.
To hold in position so as to keep from falling, sinking, or slipping.
To be capable of bearing; withstand: ?His flaw'd heart... too weak the conflict to support? (Shakespeare).
To keep from weakening or failing; strengthen: The letter supported him in his grief.
To provide for or maintain, by supplying with money or necessities.
To furnish corroborating evidence for: New facts supported her story.

To aid the cause, policy, or interests of: supported her in her election campaign.
To argue in favor of; advocate: supported lower taxes.
To endure; tolerate: ?At supper there was such a conflux of company that I could scarcely support the tumult? (Samuel Johnson).
To act in a secondary or subordinate role to (a leading performer). [/]
Which of these things DON't you beleive that you should be giving American soldiers? Note: the definition referring to "aiding the cause" doesn't mean that by supporting the troops, you are aiding the cause against the Iraqi leadership and, now, the insugency, it means that you are aiding their cause to stay alive and out of harms way.
Quote:


Absolutely. I respect them as human beings, even though I abhor the things they've done.



Referring to the definition above(the one of respect) what definition would you say applies to Hitler? Do you "feel deferential regard" for him? "esteem" for Stalin?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2583882 - 04/20/04 07:11 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

re?spect ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-spkt)
tr.v. re?spect?ed, re?spect?ing, re?spects
To feel or show deferential regard for; esteem.
To avoid violation of or interference with: respect the speed limit.
To relate or refer to; concern.

Which of those definitions do you apply to the nazi gas chamber workers? "esteem"?



No, I'd go with "concern."

Quote:

Ok, how about this. IF you supported the troops (or would , in theory) in Nazi Germany, that means that you don't, per se, remove them from the 'support' category simply because they are, as Hicks put it "hired killers". Now, since these men (in the WWII Era) joined the military to kill people, and not knowing exactly what "enemy" they'd be fighting, that means that you support them simply because they were in the military doing "the right thing". However, the men back then, and the men today, don't have a CHOICE as to what they are doing in the military (i.e. where they are fighting, who they are fighting). This is why, be they troops fighting at the Frozen Chosen, Guadalcanal, Iwo Jima, or Baghdad, they deserve our "support". They might have chosen to go into the military, they might even get off on killing people, but they have nothing to do with where they are fighting. Either you support them because they aer Americans that are doing their job, which includes the fact that you must recognize that they don't have any say as to where they go, or you don't.



Ok then, I take it back. Theoretically, you could support the troops without supporting the war if you believed that war itself is not wrong, but are opposed to a specific war.

Quote:

Referring to the definition above(the one of respect) what definition would you say applies to Hitler? Do you "feel deferential regard" for him? "esteem" for Stalin?



Again, the word "concern" would be the best synonym here.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2583918 - 04/20/04 07:23 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

You're entitled to your opinion, but IMO all humans deserve equal respect.



Tell me that again after someone rapes or kills your mom, sister... or even you.

Not all people are worthy of respect. Respect must be earned.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2584043 - 04/20/04 08:04 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

silversoul7, how old are you? 12? When people say they support our troops, it's because they are American Citizens following the orders of the President, who was put in office BY AMERICAN CITIZENS to defend the freedom of AMERICAN CITIZENS. They are the sons and daughters of AMERICAN CITIZENS. They have families and want nothing more than to protect our freedoms. They are obligated by law to follow the orders of the President. If you don't like what they are doing, talk to your congressmen or vote the President out of office, but the soldiers are just doing what they are told will protect America. If you have a problem, it is with the politics... not the soldiers. The politics kill people. The soldiers are simply the tools politics use to do it.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2584094 - 04/20/04 08:28 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Do we really need that stuff to defend our borders? The strategy of an armed populace seems to have worked out quite well for Switzerland.





Having just returned from Switzerland, I spoke at length with people that lived there about their military and policies.

You seem to be under the false impression that all are short term, conscripted members. There are full time military members.

Secondly, you believe that this provides adequate protection. It was everyone I spoke with feelings that their military was a force to be rekoned with, if it were still the 1950's. Everyone that I spoke with freely spoke about how much of a joke it was. They said it was a strong ground force, but not much more. They didn't feel they would survive a battle with any of the more formidable military powers.

Also, what do you do when you get attacked across an ocean? With a limited air force, and a virtually non-existant Navy, how do you effectively engage them?

There are many others factors to consider as to why they haven't been attacked. Perhaps one of the lesser known is there policy of no surrender. Legally, it isn't even an option for them. They would rather fight to the end, and then blow everything up (it's said they have explosives planted all over the place) than give up the country. And not forgetting the banks.

Why is it more desirable to you to have people forced to serve, than those who volunteer? Aren't you the same guy who just recently admitted you have now adopted a policy that income tax is wrong because they're forced?


Edited by HagbardCeline (04/20/04 08:31 PM)


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2584096 - 04/20/04 08:28 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

You're entitled to your opinion, but IMO all humans deserve equal respect.



Tell me that again after someone rapes or kills your mom, sister... or even you.

Not all people are worthy of respect. Respect must be earned.



I've been jumped by a Mexican gang before, but I still respect those people as human beings.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2584108 - 04/20/04 08:34 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

That makes plenty of sense to me, luv. It's rediculous to give every human being respect, also it's rediculous to be against war for that very reason. So long as there are individuals willing to rape, kill, and torture to get what they want, violence and war are essential. This is all human nature.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: trippysmurf]
    #2584126 - 04/20/04 08:39 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7, how old are you? 12?



I'm 21, thanks for asking.

Quote:

When people say they support our troops, it's because they are American Citizens following the orders of the President, who was put in office BY AMERICAN CITIZENS to defend the freedom of AMERICAN CITIZENS.



The ACLU defends our freedom much more than the army does. If we were being invaded, I'd agree with you about defending our freedom, but when the enemy is an ocean away, that's not defending our freedom. It's aggressively attacking others.

Quote:

They have families and want nothing more than to protect our freedoms.



I realize that. I have a friend who was in the army(never saw combat, though). I believe that such people are misguided in believing that they are, in fact, defending our freedom. In reality, I believe, they are more often fighting for the personal agendas of corrupt politicians.

Quote:

If you don't like what they are doing, talk to your congressmen or vote the President out of office, but the soldiers are just doing what they are told will protect America.



Were they not aware when they became soldiers that their job would involve killing? And I do vote, thank you very much.

Quote:

If you have a problem, it is with the politics... not the soldiers.



I don't hold it against the soldiers that they do what they do. As I said, I believe many(if not most) of them are misguided and truly believe they are doing the right thing. They play a part in it, but I agree the politicians are really the one to blame.

Quote:

The politics kill people. The soldiers are simply the tools politics use to do it.



Since we don't currently have a draft, that means that the soldiers voluntarily chose to be the tools of politicians.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2584147 - 04/20/04 08:48 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Also, what do you do when you get attacked across an ocean? With a limited air force, and a virtually non-existant Navy, how do you effectively engage them?



Look back to the American Revolution. What we had then was a bunch of armed citizens fighting off an occupying power. I must have missed the part where the British won.

Quote:

Why is it more desirable to you to have people forced to serve, than those who volunteer? Aren't you the same guy who just recently admitted you have now adopted a policy that income tax is wrong because they're forced?



I didn't say we had to have a system exactly like Switzerland. Fighting any war should be voluntary(remember that even volunteer soldiers are not given a choice as to what war they fight). However, I'm sure that if we were invaded, an armed populace would most likely fight back.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: rommstein2001]
    #2584244 - 04/20/04 09:19 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

if you really think violence and rape for the sake of
personal gain are human nature, I pity your existence.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2584245 - 04/20/04 09:19 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Look back to the American Revolution. What we had then was a bunch of armed citizens fighting off an occupying power. I must have missed the part where the British won.



Pseudo-sidestep. Pretty sure he was alluding to modern warfare. What is an armed populace to do against guided missles from a submarine and stealth bombers?


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2584254 - 04/20/04 09:21 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

IMHO, your explanations and rebuttals are not gaining you any ground. It is clear to me that you seem to have decided to be firmly against the taking of any human life.

Well, here's a little nugget that I'd like to impart on everyone. I believe that we as humans take ourselves way too seriously. We have imbued some kind of mystical sacredness upon our lives at the same time that we are multiplying into infinity so as to choke out all other life on earth. Not every life is sacred. In order for new life to succeed, some other life must be sacrificed.

In the context of this thread, some people must die sometimes in order for others to live and prosper. It can't be all rosy and perfect all of time. There will always be someone out there that harbors ill intent towards others. Someone must be ready and willing to do what it takes to answer that threat.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2584267 - 04/20/04 09:24 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Quote:

Look back to the American Revolution. What we had then was a bunch of armed citizens fighting off an occupying power. I must have missed the part where the British won.



Pseudo-sidestep. Pretty sure he was alluding to modern warfare. What is an armed populace to do against guided missles from a submarine and stealth bombers?



Nothing if the goal is destruction. But most invaders just try to fight the army. It's a lot harder for them if they don't know who the enemy is. Example: Vietnam


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Ekstaza]
    #2584278 - 04/20/04 09:28 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

IMHO, your explanations and rebuttals are not gaining you any ground. It is clear to me that you seem to have decided to be firmly against the taking of any human life.



They only do not gain ground with people who believe that taking human life(even if not in self-defense) is ok.

Quote:

Well, here's a little nugget that I'd like to impart on everyone. I believe that we as humans take ourselves way too seriously. We have imbued some kind of mystical sacredness upon our lives at the same time that we are multiplying into infinity so as to choke out all other life on earth. Not every life is sacred. In order for new life to succeed, some other life must be sacrificed.



This is why we have things like diseases, accidents, and old age.

Quote:

In the context of this thread, some people must die sometimes in order for others to live and prosper. It can't be all rosy and perfect all of time. There will always be someone out there that harbors ill intent towards others. Someone must be ready and willing to do what it takes to answer that threat.



As I said, I am all for defending our borders, and would gladly join any militia that was trying to fend of an invader. However, there is no need to go overseas and fight other people in their own land.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2584292 - 04/20/04 09:31 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I've been jumped by a Mexican gang before, but I still respect those people as human beings.



Right.


--------------------
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2584295 - 04/20/04 09:32 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Nothing if the goal is destruction. But most invaders just try to fight the army. It's a lot harder for them if they don't know who the enemy is. Example: Vietnam



Keyword being most. Being attacked for the sake of destruction is entirely plausible (you're supplying crucial arms and supplies to country x, so country y who x is fighting, knowing you have no means of defense, obliterates your production capability with their insuperable technology). A standing, modern army is at the minimal a neccesary deterrant.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2584304 - 04/20/04 09:36 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Quote:

Nothing if the goal is destruction. But most invaders just try to fight the army. It's a lot harder for them if they don't know who the enemy is. Example: Vietnam



Keyword being most. Being attacked for the sake of destruction is entirely plausible (you're supplying crucial arms and supplies to country x, so country y who x is fighting, knowing you have no means of defense, obliterates your production capability with their insuperable technology). A standing, modern army is at the minimal a neccesary deterrant.



Which is exactly why arming other countries is a bad idea.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2584339 - 04/20/04 09:43 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Which is exactly why arming other countries is a bad idea.



The word arms was not integral to my point...feel free to disregard it. Your country is simply selling supplies such as medicine and food, again country Y knowing you have no means to stop it, eliminates your capability to produce these things via modern technology.


--------------------
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2584351 - 04/20/04 09:45 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
They only do not gain ground with people who believe that taking human life(even if not in self-defense) is ok.




Did I say that taking innocent life is ok? No, I didn't. I said that human life isn't as sacred as some people make it out to be. I'm a firm believer that we are a part of this world and not it's master.

Quote:


This is why we have things like diseases, accidents, and old age.




True, but we are systematically defeating those controls, now aren't we?

Quote:


As I said, I am all for defending our borders, and would gladly join any militia that was trying to fend of an invader. However, there is no need to go overseas and fight other people in their own land.




How much of your spare time are you going to invest in learning how to defend against possible intercontinental balistic missle attacks. Do you think that your everday armed populant is that sophisticated? Our hired killers are doing their part to allow you and everyone else that wants to, to do other things with their life.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2584356 - 04/20/04 09:46 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Quote:

Which is exactly why arming other countries is a bad idea.



The word arms was not integral to my point...feel free to disregard it. Your country is simply selling supplies such as medicine and food, again country Y knowing you have no means to stop it, eliminates your capability to produce these things via modern technology.



Then we send in the National Guard. They volunteer knowing that they will not have to fight in a foreign war. If they aren't enough, then we're fucked anyway.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Ekstaza]
    #2584369 - 04/20/04 09:49 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:


This is why we have things like diseases, accidents, and old age.




True, but we are systematically defeating those controls, now aren't we?



When they find a cure for old age, let me know. The birth rate needs to be decreased, rather than the death rate increased.

Quote:

Quote:


As I said, I am all for defending our borders, and would gladly join any militia that was trying to fend of an invader. However, there is no need to go overseas and fight other people in their own land.




How much of your spare time are you going to invest in learning how to defend against possible intercontinental balistic missle attacks. Do you think that your everday armed populant is that sophisticated? Our hired killers are doing their part to allow you and everyone else that wants to, to do other things with their life.



We have a National Guard that is trained in using more sophisticated military technology. The armed populace can also help in fighting off invading troops.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2584377 - 04/20/04 09:51 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

So then just to make sure..."hired killers" are fine so long as they stay on our soil?


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2584378 - 04/20/04 09:52 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Touche!


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2584383 - 04/20/04 09:53 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, if they are used to fight off invaders. Self-defense is the only acceptable reason for violence.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2584396 - 04/20/04 09:56 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Yes, if they are used to fight off invaders. Self-defense is the only acceptable reason for violence.



So.... someone rapes your mom, you catch them in the act and don't fight them off her because self defense is the only acceptable reason for violence?

Do you think about these things before you say them? Or is your sense of values really so fucked up?


--------------------
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2584397 - 04/20/04 09:56 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Remember, no invaders in my example, simple destruction. So would you then be fine with our national guard launching ICBMs into Country Y?


--------------------
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2584408 - 04/20/04 10:00 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Yes, if they are used to fight off invaders. Self-defense is the only acceptable reason for violence.




Our soldiers in Iraq were told that they are fighting to defend the US from terrorists. So by your definitions they are A.O.K.? Or is it only on a personal level theat self defense is proper? Why should we wait for an enemy to be on our door steps to fight back when we know that the first punch can be thrown from far away?


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2584417 - 04/20/04 10:01 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Ok, change "self-defense" to "defense." Most countries, however, don't need us for defense(the only one I can think of is illegally occupying the West Bank and Gaza Strip).


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2584443 - 04/20/04 10:08 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Remember, no invaders in my example, simple destruction. So would you then be fine with our national guard launching ICBMs into Country Y?



I wouldn't have any problem with the military(except for the fact that it's funded by stolen taxpayer money) if it was used for defense purposes only. However, anyone entering the military in this day and age should know damn well that that's not the way we do things around here.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Ekstaza]
    #2584463 - 04/20/04 10:12 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ekstaza said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Yes, if they are used to fight off invaders. Self-defense is the only acceptable reason for violence.




Our soldiers in Iraq were told that they are fighting to defend the US from terrorists. So by your definitions they are A.O.K.? Or is it only on a personal level theat self defense is proper? Why should we wait for an enemy to be on our door steps to fight back when we know that the first punch can be thrown from far away?



For the third time, I believe that those soldiers were decieved. Sure, they probably believed that they were defending us from terrorists, but it should be apparent by now that they were not. As for waiting for the enemy to strike first, we need not necessarily do that, but we should at least have clear evidence that they plan to attack us. Anyway, I am not saying that soldiers are bad people. I'm saying that this idea that we all need to "Support Our Troops" is ridiculous.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2584501 - 04/20/04 10:19 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
I wouldn't have any problem with the military(except for the fact that it's funded by stolen taxpayer money) if it was used for defense purposes only. However, anyone entering the military in this day and age should know damn well that that's not the way we do things around here.




From reading arguments about the taxation=theft issue, I think that they are usually citing Article X of the Bill of Rights. According to that, money is allowed to be appropriated from the people by the federal government for military usage. I don't see that as theft, maybe others will disagree with that.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2584511 - 04/20/04 10:20 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

My taxation=theft argument has nothing to do with the Constitution. It has to do with the fact that people have a right to their income.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2584546 - 04/20/04 10:28 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I wouldn't have any problem with the military(except for the fact that it's funded by stolen taxpayer money)



I'd have to disagree with the military being stolen money. The protection of a countries citizens happens to be one of the few legitimate roles of government in my oppinion.

I agree with you completely that wars should be fought only when absolutely neccesary. My main objection to your points was that an armed populace can do near nothing against an opposing force using modern technology. You've since made clear that you would support a national guard with military capability to deter or retaliate against the scenario I presented. Another question I would ask you is would you consider national self-defense situations outside of being directly attacked. Say hypothetically some country has attacked and is having its way with another country that alone supplies us with some, again, hypothetical item that the citizens of our country depend on utterly. Would you consider this a legitimate reason for entering into conflict?


--------------------
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2584550 - 04/20/04 10:28 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
For the third time, I believe that those soldiers were decieved.




So who would determine if the threat were real? Our Commander in Chief did, and Congress voted in agreement. At that time, according to false/misleading information, they believed that Iraq WAS an imminent threat to us, which is justifiable under your clause. You can't use this as your justification for violence, then say, after the fact, that their "isn't" a threat. Who would make that call if their TRUELY was a threat? If the Chinese were sending battleships, and one single person thought it was just a surprise party, would we not initiate force?
Quote:

Sure, they probably believed that they were defending us from terrorists, but it should be apparent by now that they were not.




So, if the majority of the leadership believes that it's a defensive act, and the President and Congress OK it, then they find out that their might have been incorrect intelligence (or they lied, whatever), we, what, turn the clock back and don't fight them? Based on your own definition of justification for attack, that being "defense", and your statement that "they probably believed that they were defending...", their was ample justification for our defensive action. "Knowing" after the fact doesn't change the fact that we truly thought that we were acting in a defensive posture. If I'm wrong, use the statements of yours about "violence only being justfied in defense" and "they beleived that they were defending..." and tell me how that isn't meeting your criteron for violence.
Quote:


As for waiting for the enemy to strike first, we need not necessarily do that, but we should at least have clear evidence that they plan to attack us. Anyway, I am not saying that soldiers are bad people. I'm saying that this idea that we all need to "Support Our Troops" is ridiculous.



You don't think that we should encourage our troops to do their best? You believe that these soldiers are pawns in a rich-mans quest for money, and you don't think that they should be shown support for the position in which they find themselves? That sounds like people that hate policemen. They don't MAKE the laws, they just enforce them.

Do you think that a father telling his Iraq-bound son to "Stay safe" is offering support? Would you not tell someone over there to "stay safe"? If yes to both, aren't you then saying that you would "Support our troops", even though they aren't fighting for a position that you personally support?


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2584589 - 04/20/04 10:36 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

germin8tionn8ion said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
For the third time, I believe that those soldiers were decieved.




So who would determine if the threat were real? Our Commander in Chief did, and Congress voted in agreement. At that time, according to false/misleading information, they believed that Iraq WAS an imminent threat to us, which is justifiable under your clause. You can't use this as your justification for violence, then say, after the fact, that their "isn't" a threat. Who would make that call if their TRUELY was a threat? If the Chinese were sending battleships, and one single person thought it was just a surprise party, would we not initiate force?



The president mislead the nation into believing the threat was real, and for that he deserves to be voted out of office. See, that's what you do: when someone fucks up that bad, you fire them. I wish more people would get this concept.

Quote:

Quote:

Sure, they probably believed that they were defending us from terrorists, but it should be apparent by now that they were not.




So, if the majority of the leadership believes that it's a defensive act, and the President and Congress OK it, then they find out that their might have been incorrect intelligence (or they lied, whatever), we, what, turn the clock back and don't fight them? Based on your own definition of justification for attack, that being "defense", and your statement that "they probably believed that they were defending...", their was ample justification for our defensive action. "Knowing" after the fact doesn't change the fact that we truly thought that we were acting in a defensive posture. If I'm wrong, use the statements of yours about "violence only being justfied in defense" and "they beleived that they were defending..." and tell me how that isn't meeting your criteron for violence.



Mistakes happen, and so do lies. I still don't see any reason to support our troops when they are fighting for a mistake or a lie.

Quote:

Quote:


As for waiting for the enemy to strike first, we need not necessarily do that, but we should at least have clear evidence that they plan to attack us. Anyway, I am not saying that soldiers are bad people. I'm saying that this idea that we all need to "Support Our Troops" is ridiculous.



You don't think that we should encourage our troops to do their best? You believe that these soldiers are pawns in a rich-mans quest for money, and you don't think that they should be shown support for the position in which they find themselves? That sounds like people that hate policemen. They don't MAKE the laws, they just enforce them.



I don't hate the troops. I just don't think I need to "support" them any more than I should "support our lawyers." They chose to be in the military. Let them deal with it.

Quote:

Do you think that a father telling his Iraq-bound son to "Stay safe" is offering support? Would you not tell someone over there to "stay safe"? If yes to both, aren't you then saying that you would "Support our troops", even though they aren't fighting for a position that you personally support?



Of course I would tell someone to stay safe. I would also advise them not to join the military in the first place. If they decide to do so anyway, that's their problem, not mine.


--------------------


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2584623 - 04/20/04 10:44 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
The president mislead the nation into believing the threat was real, and for that he deserves to be voted out of office. See, that's what you do: when someone fucks up that bad, you fire them. I wish more people would get this concept.




speaking of missing concepts, my point was that, at the time, the president and congress decided to go to war for defense. The majority o the people did so. Even had your safe guard of "defense only" been in place, we'd have gone to war.
Quote:


Mistakes happen, and so do lies. I still don't see any reason to support our troops when they are fighting for a mistake or a lie.




So a mistake, or a lie, occured by a politican, so you stop supporting the innocent puppets of said politicans?
Quote:


I don't hate the troops. I just don't think I need to "support" them any more than I should "support our lawyers." They chose to be in the military. Let them deal with it.




Hm.

Quote:

Of course I would tell someone to stay safe. I would also advise them not to join the military in the first place. If they decide to do so anyway, that's their problem, not mine.




you didn't answer my question as to wether or not telling someone to stay safe constitues support, nor wether or your act of doing so could be construed as support for the troops.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2584637 - 04/20/04 10:48 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The president mislead the nation into believing the threat was real, and for that he deserves to be voted out of office. See, that's what you do: when someone fucks up that bad, you fire them. I wish more people would get this concept.




The President is a President, not a King. He does not have sole authority for making decisions nor does he take care of all the history and information that go into making a decision. To say he mislead(To lead into error of thought or action, especially by intentionally deceiving) the nation at this point is to be disgustingly rash. I am more open to the possibility that president bush had an agenda against Iraq and wanted to go in under any set of truths or lies then many, but as there is no proof of this, I give him the benefit of the doubt that he was presented a shitload of information by a shitload of sources that all happened to be wrong. Why should the president be fired for making a very sound decision based on what he was presented as fact because the information turned out to be fallacious?


--------------------
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2584640 - 04/20/04 10:48 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

germin8tionn8ion said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
The president mislead the nation into believing the threat was real, and for that he deserves to be voted out of office. See, that's what you do: when someone fucks up that bad, you fire them. I wish more people would get this concept.




speaking of missing concepts, my point was that, at the time, the president and congress decided to go to war for defense. The majority o the people did so. Even had your safe guard of "defense only" been in place, we'd have gone to war.



That may be so, but those of us who say through the propaganda knew all along that Saddam was not a threat.

Quote:

Quote:


Mistakes happen, and so do lies. I still don't see any reason to support our troops when they are fighting for a mistake or a lie.




So a mistake, or a lie, occured by a politican, so you stop supporting the innocent puppets of said politicans?



They chose to make themselves puppets. Therefore they get no sympathy from me.

Quote:

Quote:

Of course I would tell someone to stay safe. I would also advise them not to join the military in the first place. If they decide to do so anyway, that's their problem, not mine.




you didn't answer my question as to wether or not telling someone to stay safe constitues support, nor wether or your act of doing so could be construed as support for the troops.



No it does not constitute support, at least in the sense that I'm using the word. It constitutes advice.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2584653 - 04/20/04 10:51 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Why should the president be fired for making a very sound decision based on what he was presented as fact because the information turned out to be fallacious?



Because he appointed the liars who presented this information as fact. Also, based on the current situation in Iraq, I have a hard time believe that the way Bush went about this was a "sound decision."


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2584669 - 04/20/04 10:57 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I said sound decision, not sound course of action. Was George Tenet appointed by Bush? Members of the Senate Foreign Intelligence Committee?


--------------------
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2584685 - 04/20/04 11:01 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Look back to the American Revolution. What we had then was a bunch of armed citizens fighting off an occupying power. I must have missed the part where the British won.




Weak. You know that has nothing to do with modern warfare. The point is that if a military power decided on attacking us, it wouldn't be something that a militia could defend against. Especially if they didn't even use a ground force. Maybe they just decided to lob 25 cruise missles per day, everyday until we are effectively living in the Stone Age again.

But I digress. Your main point is that you shouldn't be asked to "suppport the troops."

You claim you have "respect" for everyone, regardless of their actions or culpability. You admit that you believe maintaining a military for "self-defense" is warranted. So, it's ok for these people to defend us if the need arises, but as soon as their cause develops into a scenario you deem unjust they should no longer deserve your respect (or will you try and fit the definition to suit you again)? If it is wrong for the people to be part of a military because they might be called on to kill, then it must be wrong to have a military. But didn't you say in some situations it was permissable?

So if regardless of the situation they're put in, it's their fault because they shouldn't have joined. A kind of "they get what they deserve" arrangement they've put themselves into. Hmmm....I suppose you also believe woman deserves to be raped for wearing suggestive clothing.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2584699 - 04/20/04 11:06 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

If it is wrong for the people to be part of a military because they might be called on to kill, then it must be wrong to have a military. But didn't you say in some situations it was permissable?



Yes, and I did not say it was wrong to be in the military. However, if you join the military, don't look to me for sympathy and support because you made the decision to do so.

Quote:

So if regardless of the situation they're put in, it's their fault because they shouldn't have joined. A kind of "they get what they deserve" arrangement they've put themselves into. Hmmm....I suppose you also believe woman deserves to be raped for wearing suggestive clothing.



No I do not, and that is a bad analogy. A more comparable situation would be a person complaining about getting an STD when they don't use condoms. You play with fire, you get burned.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2584720 - 04/20/04 11:10 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Of course I would tell someone to stay safe. I would also advise them not to join the military in the first place. If they decide to do so anyway, that's their problem, not mine.




It most certainly is your problem as it is every other US citizens problem. The military isn't just a tool for wartime. It's an impliment of peace as well. It assures you and I that we will not be infringed upon by others. It is a promise to hostile forces that action can and will be taken in our defense.

Sure it'd be nice to have things go our way all of the time, but that is just not going to happen. Our lives cannot be left to chance in the hands of a part-time force of militia that must be first called away from their regular jobs and briefed before they can defend us. We need a full-time military that can be ready to do what is deemed neccessary at the time to offer up a good defense. If noone volunteers, you may be forced to step up or go to jail. If there were no one joining the military, our government would eventually have to reinstate the draft. I've already volunteered and served my country, so you can guess how I feel about sending draft dodgers to jail.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Ekstaza]
    #2584734 - 04/20/04 11:15 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

It most certainly is your problem as it is every other US citizens problem. The military isn't just a tool for wartime. It's an impliment of peace as well. It assures you and I that we will not be infringed upon by others. It is a promise to hostile forces that action can and will be taken in our defense.



Not if those hostile forces are in our own government.

Quote:

Sure it'd be nice to have things go our way all of the time, but that is just not going to happen. Our lives cannot be left to chance in the hands of a part-time force of militia that must be first called away from their regular jobs and briefed before they can defend us. We need a full-time military that can be ready to do what is deemed neccessary at the time to offer up a good defense. If noone volunteers, you may be forced to step up or go to jail. If there were no one joining the military, our government would eventually have to reinstate the draft. I've already volunteered and served my country, so you can guess how I feel about sending draft dodgers to jail.



If someone wants to join the military, that's their choice. But I'm not going to support their decision just because they've deluded themselves into thinking they're protecting my freedom.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2584777 - 04/20/04 11:28 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
If someone wants to join the military, that's their choice. But I'm not going to support their decision just because they've deluded themselves into thinking they're protecting my freedom.




I think it's you that must be deluded in thinking that any nation can be an island impervious to outside forces. Foreign relations will always affect us. And I mean you too Silversoul7. Your freedom isn't something that you just have, regardless of outside forces. This war in Iraq isn't the be-all-end-all of what our US troop stand for. They are much more than we are because they are out there doing what it takes to keep it safe for you and I to debate their worth.

Going into Iraq wasn't what I call a good idea either, but demeaning our troops isn't going to change the fact that it happened. Also we can't just walk away whistling with our hands behind our backs like nothing happened. Support our troops by requesting that they be brought back. How's about that? Why should they be disregarded?


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Ekstaza]
    #2584781 - 04/20/04 11:29 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I think it's you that must be deluded in thinking that any nation can be an island impervious to outside forces.



Go ask Costa Rica about its military.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2584848 - 04/20/04 11:51 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Go ask Costa Rica about its military.




O.K., I did. I learned some interesting facts also. Sure they abolished their military, but they did so with the thinking that the US would come to their rescue if they were attacked. What's it going to be? Are we now supposed to lay down all of our defenses and expect some one else to defend us if there is a need? Who will then protect poor defenseless Costa Rica?

Feel free to read what I read.
http://www.keytocostarica.com/aunique.htm


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Ekstaza]
    #2584942 - 04/21/04 12:18 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I am not saying that we need to completely abolish our military, but we do not need to station troops abroad and invade foreign nations to be free. Just like Costa Rica, we have allies who would come to our aid if we were attacked. Oh, and to the best of my knowledge, no nation has attempted to attack Costa Rica since its abolition of the military.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2585189 - 04/21/04 01:28 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


Yes, and I did not say it was wrong to be in the military. However, if you join the military, don't look to me for sympathy and support because you made the decision to do so.





So you have no problem with other people supporting them then? Would you not say that the majority of the nation mirror's this sentiment?

Quote:

No I do not, and that is a bad analogy. A more comparable situation would be a person complaining about getting an STD when they don't use condoms. You play with fire, you get burned.




Sigh. I thought that perhaps you would have been a little more critical of the analogy, but I suspected you might dismiss it.

Why does a woman wear suggestive or provocative clothing? To satisify her ego so she feels good about herself? To project a certain image that she feels representative of her ego? (both reasonable unless you disagree) Or most essentially, because she chose to do something she wanted. She probably even thought it was the right decision. But does she have any control over someone who imposes their will upon her?

Why does someone join the military? To serve their country? To get an education? Because they believe it the most attractive oppourtunity available? I'm sure you can extrapolate the rest.

So, there's nothing wrong with wearing what she wants, but if she gets raped, don't look to you for sympathy or support because she made the decision to do so, at least that should be your position then if your consistent.

You said "I did not say it was wrong to be in the military. However, if you join the military, don't look to me for sympathy and support because you made the decision to do so." So even though they did what they thought was the right choice, a choice you acknowledge as honorable, and get forced to do something you find reprehensible, they get no compassion from you? As you said, "you play with fire, you get burned." So much for tolerance.

Moving on.

You said there is nothing wrong with joining the military. If there is nothing wrong, then it must be morally just. Do you not expect people to be aware of and practice that which is moral?

Above I asked you some questions which I would now like to forecast your answers to. Since it isn't wrong to be in the military, no one should be criticized for supporting them. And because it isn't wrong, and what's not wrong is by extension right, it's understandable that majority of the nation feels that way. And considering this is what the majority of the nation feels is right, as you have said you do, doesn't it make sense they would encourage others to do what is right. Could you see how it may even be puzzling to someone how you could claim it okay, but that you refuse to show support and you feel demonized that others would expect this from you?

Why is that sometimes you are able to objectively analyze a situation, remain rational and possibly even admit fault, while others, you seem to adopt a position in direct contrast to logic and constantly change your position to support it.

Oh, and what exactly did the person complaing about STD's have in relation with someone who joins the military and how is that a more appropriate analogy if you wouldn't mind?


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2586239 - 04/21/04 10:30 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

while i think that the war was expensive and counterproductive toward fighting terrorism, i can't say that i do not support the troops. i believe that they are there for the purpose of good, and while i don't think the war made us any safer (and perhaps even less safe) and was an improper use of funds, i do respect what they are trying to accomplish.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2586306 - 04/21/04 10:54 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

silversoul7 writes:

I used to think like that....

Yes, you did. And not all that long ago either:

"The troops didn't start this war. Bush did. They are only doing their job. If they refuse to fight, they'll get courtmarshalled. They don't set the policy. They are required to follow orders. I support our troops and hope they return home safely." -- http://www.shroomery.org/archives/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1406038&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

....but then it dawned on me that I don't want to support hired killers.

I'm curious. When did it dawn on you, and was there anything specific that led to this reversal? Reading a news article? Watching a movie? Eating some mushrooms?

pinky


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2586710 - 04/21/04 01:48 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

HagbardCeline said:
Quote:


Yes, and I did not say it was wrong to be in the military. However, if you join the military, don't look to me for sympathy and support because you made the decision to do so.





So you have no problem with other people supporting them then? Would you not say that the majority of the nation mirror's this sentiment?



No, I have no problem with other people supporting them(but not with my tax dollars). I just don't think that I should be expected to support the troops, or even buy into the crap about them protecting our freedoms.

Quote:

Quote:

No I do not, and that is a bad analogy. A more comparable situation would be a person complaining about getting an STD when they don't use condoms. You play with fire, you get burned.




Sigh. I thought that perhaps you would have been a little more critical of the analogy, but I suspected you might dismiss it.

Why does a woman wear suggestive or provocative clothing? To satisify her ego so she feels good about herself? To project a certain image that she feels representative of her ego? (both reasonable unless you disagree) Or most essentially, because she chose to do something she wanted. She probably even thought it was the right decision. But does she have any control over someone who imposes their will upon her?



Wearing provocative clothing comes with the implicit understanding that guys will be attracted to her, but not that they will rape her. Joining the army, on the other hand, comes with the implicit understanding that you will be shot at and possibly killed.

Quote:

Why does someone join the military? To serve their country? To get an education? Because they believe it the most attractive oppourtunity available? I'm sure you can extrapolate the rest.



But as I said, it comes with the implicit understanding that they will be shot at and possibly killed. They know the risks when going in. Let them deal with it.

Quote:

You said "I did not say it was wrong to be in the military. However, if you join the military, don't look to me for sympathy and support because you made the decision to do so." So even though they did what they thought was the right choice, a choice you acknowledge as honorable, and get forced to do something you find reprehensible, they get no compassion from you? As you said, "you play with fire, you get burned." So much for tolerance.



First of all, I don't remember saying that I considered it honorable to join the military. As for compassion, they get the same amount from me that any other human being would get. No more, no less.

Quote:

You said there is nothing wrong with joining the military. If there is nothing wrong, then it must be morally just. Do you not expect people to be aware of and practice that which is moral?



I did't say that there was nothing wrong with joining the military. I merely denied having said that there was something wrong with it. There's a difference. And by the way, there is such a thing as moral neutrality.

Quote:

Above I asked you some questions which I would now like to forecast your answers to. Since it isn't wrong to be in the military, no one should be criticized for supporting them. And because it isn't wrong, and what's not wrong is by extension right, it's understandable that majority of the nation feels that way. And considering this is what the majority of the nation feels is right, as you have said you do, doesn't it make sense they would encourage others to do what is right. Could you see how it may even be puzzling to someone how you could claim it okay, but that you refuse to show support and you feel demonized that others would expect this from you?



Again, I NEVER said that joining the military was right. Militarism is the milk on which our corrupt government has gotten fatter over the past century. I might be more supportive of the military if it were actually defending us rather than serving the corrupt agendas of power-hungry politicians.

Quote:

Why is that sometimes you are able to objectively analyze a situation, remain rational and possibly even admit fault, while others, you seem to adopt a position in direct contrast to logic and constantly change your position to support it.



First of all, there is no such thing as being objective. I would guess that the situations in which you feel I am objective and logical are those in which you agree with me, whereas the ones in which you feel I am being illogical are this in which you disagree. As for changing my position, that is commonly known as being open-minded.

Quote:

Oh, and what exactly did the person complaing about STD's have in relation with someone who joins the military and how is that a more appropriate analogy if you wouldn't mind?



In both situations, the person knowingly puts themselves in a risky situation(assuming the person with STD's has had some sort of sex education), and they have to live(or die) with the consequences.


--------------------


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Phred]
    #2586723 - 04/21/04 01:50 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
silversoul7 writes:

I used to think like that....

Yes, you did. And not all that long ago either:

"The troops didn't start this war. Bush did. They are only doing their job. If they refuse to fight, they'll get courtmarshalled. They don't set the policy. They are required to follow orders. I support our troops and hope they return home safely." -- http://www.shroomery.org/archives/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1406038&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

....but then it dawned on me that I don't want to support hired killers.

I'm curious. When did it dawn on you, and was there anything specific that led to this reversal? Reading a news article? Watching a movie? Eating some mushrooms?



Well, let's just say that I'm a person with a lot of time on my hands, and in that time, I tend to do a lot of thinking. This thread is more about testing an idea for flaws than actually stating a position.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2586886 - 04/21/04 02:47 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Do you support U.S. troops on foreign soil under certain circumstances? If the United States is attacked are we to simply defend or is going on the offense if such is how we can end a war valid by you?


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2586903 - 04/21/04 02:52 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I support the use of deadly force only when it is absolutely necessary to do so. If a situation was dire enough to warrant the use of troops overseas, I might support it, but aside from World War II, I have yet to see any such situation.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2586931 - 04/21/04 02:59 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Well as your National Guard plus Armed Populace won't be able to accomplish that, you pretty much just support a military(as we have now) that is used in manners are that are just and neccesary. Wish you would have clarified that in the first place.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2586938 - 04/21/04 03:01 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I support the existence of the military, yes. I'm not so sure that that's the same as "supporting our troops." In fact, now that I think about it, it would've helped if I had started this thread by asking what is meant by that phrase.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2586949 - 04/21/04 03:04 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Agreed.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: trippysmurf]
    #2587229 - 04/21/04 04:21 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

trippysmurf said:
soldiers are simply the tools





Yeah, I agree with that. soldiers are tools. Not by inheritance, but because they made the decision to be tools.

I use tools. I laugh at tools. I send tools to die so that I can have cheap gasoline. I do not respect tools. Obviously, they dont respect themselves, or they wouldn't have put themselves in that position.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2587275 - 04/21/04 04:39 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Weak. You know that has nothing to do with modern warfare. The point is that if a military power decided on attacking us, it wouldn't be something that a militia could defend against. Especially if they didn't even use a ground force. Maybe they just decided to lob 25 cruise missles per day, everyday until we are effectively living in the Stone Age again.

Good point. The right-wingers on the board make endless posts about how a militia could repel anything. That's why Switzerland has never been invaded apparantly... :rolleyes:


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Xlea321]
    #2587283 - 04/21/04 04:42 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Weak. You know that has nothing to do with modern warfare. The point is that if a military power decided on attacking us, it wouldn't be something that a militia could defend against. Especially if they didn't even use a ground force. Maybe they just decided to lob 25 cruise missles per day, everyday until we are effectively living in the Stone Age again.

Good point. Most of the right-wingers on the board think a militia could repel anything.



It did a pretty good job of repelling us out of Vietnam.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Xlea321]
    #2587284 - 04/21/04 04:42 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Really? Show me a quote from a right winger that said that please.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Xlea321]
    #2587318 - 04/21/04 04:52 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Alex, all you have to do is make the cost too high for those trying to control a country. It is not necessary to defeat them and take over their country. Winning battles means nothing if you can't hold onto a country and keep the peace, you can lose in the long run by attrition. The cost in treasure and blood of the 'victors' can continue to mount until the 'victors' end up cutting their losses and quit. This is the nature of guerilla warfare and insurgency. Again, it is not necessary to dominate your opponent, only to make his costs too high. As was pointed out already, Vietnam is a good example.

As for Switzerland, it's not that the country could not (or cannot) be defeated militarily, but that the cost of taking it and holding it has been and is too high for potential aggressors. This is why the Nazis never invaded, although their best estimates told them that they could defeat Switzerland it wasn't worth it.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2587367 - 04/21/04 05:11 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

It did a pretty good job of repelling us out of Vietnam.

No, that was an army called the Vietcong. Do you think every Vietnamese civilian had an AK-47 and a thousand rounds under the bed for "hunting" or something?


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Evolving]
    #2587374 - 04/21/04 05:15 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

This is why the Nazis never invaded

Nothing to do with the enormous financial assistance Switzerland provided to the Nazi regime then  :rolleyes:

The greatest slaughter in history has, until quite recently, tended to obscure the other horror perpetuated by the Nazis - namely, the greatest robbery in history. The first order of business for the invading Nazi army as it trampled through Europe was a raid on the national treasury and the hauling of millions of dollars in gold and cash back to the Reichsbank in Berlin. Next were art seizures from museums, galleries and the private collections of Jews. In time, all the valuables and property of Jews would be confiscated, and eventually they, too, would be taken away. Even after their deaths, the thieving would continue. Wedding rings snatched from the corpses, gold wrested from their teeth; in fact, an estimated 72 pounds of dental gold was extracted each day from victims at Auschwitz.

Billions of dollars of the looted gold and cash and an estimated $2.5 billion in stolen art were sent to Switzerland, where the Reich's Swiss bankers attended to its purchase, care and investment. Nazi Germany was, after all, the most important client in the history of Swiss banking. Before World War II, Switzerland had been a poor country. Thanks to the Third Reich, Switzerland emerged from the war as the second-richest country in the world.

In news stories over the last two years, the world has learned that the Swiss were hardly the beset-upon neutrals that they have claimed to be but instead were full partners with the Nazis. Moreover, as Tom Bower's masterly chronicle, "Nazi Gold," makes clear, the Nazis could never have prevailed as long as they did without the Swiss. Indeed, as Bower makes clear, the war would most likely have ended a full year earlier had it not been for the financial intervention of Swiss bankers.





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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Xlea321]
    #2587375 - 04/21/04 05:16 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

How many tours did you do in 'Nam Alex?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Xlea321]
    #2587416 - 04/21/04 05:25 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Nothing to do with the enormous financial assistance Switzerland provided to the Nazi regime then?



No, it was a military decision. Don't you think that the Germans would not have benefitted by confiscating the wealth from Switzerland as they did from every place else they conquered? That way, they could keep all the profits. Or do you think 'the master race' thought themselves incapable of running things as well as the Swiss?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Evolving]
    #2587425 - 04/21/04 05:27 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

No because they could launder money through switzerland.

Read the book, I don't have time to explain why you are wrong.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2587443 - 04/21/04 05:33 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
That may be so, but those of us who say through the propaganda knew all along that Saddam was not a threat.




So, if the decision isn't in the power of the majority of the voters, the congress, or the president, who, exactly, will decide when it's "defense"? If the Japanese Navy was off of our coast back a few Decembers ago, with planes heading towards us, their would probably still be one person who would say "Nope, those Zeros are coming in for a look at our beautiful island, not defense, don't attack them". Who, then, do we listen to? The minority (that has always demonstrated a dislike for Bush), or the voice ofthe majority, congress, and the president.

Summation: you said that the use of the military is only for defensive purposes. In any given situation, what would classify as defense? Attacking AFTER another group attacks? Do you think that hte majority ofthe nation, including the Senators that voted for the Iraq war, believe that it was defense? In the future, if the majority of the people believe that it is defense, and the congress does too, would you still say "Nope, no war".

Quote:


No it does not constitute support, at least in the sense that I'm using the word. It constitutes advice.



So if it's not support, what is it?


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2587465 - 04/21/04 05:39 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

germin8tionn8ion said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
That may be so, but those of us who say through the propaganda knew all along that Saddam was not a threat.




So, if the decision isn't in the power of the majority of the voters, the congress, or the president, who, exactly, will decide when it's "defense"? If the Japanese Navy was off of our coast back a few Decembers ago, with planes heading towards us, their would probably still be one person who would say "Nope, those Zeros are coming in for a look at our beautiful island, not defense, don't attack them". Who, then, do we listen to? The minority (that has always demonstrated a dislike for Bush), or the voice ofthe majority, congress, and the president.



It is the government's position to determine that, but they are often wrong.

Quote:

Summation: you said that the use of the military is only for defensive purposes. In any given situation, what would classify as defense? Attacking AFTER another group attacks? Do you think that hte majority ofthe nation, including the Senators that voted for the Iraq war, believe that it was defense? In the future, if the majority of the people believe that it is defense, and the congress does too, would you still say "Nope, no war".



I think that the majority of people were misled into believing this war was for defense. It's too late to worry about that now, but it was a grave mistake.

Quote:

Quote:


No it does not constitute support, at least in the sense that I'm using the word. It constitutes advice.



So if it's not support, what is it?



Ahem...
Quote:

No it does not constitute support, at least in the sense that I'm using the word. It constitutes advice.




--------------------


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Xlea321]
    #2587493 - 04/21/04 05:51 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
No because they could launder money through switzerland.



So you think that the Germans thought themselves less capable than the Swiss, and there would be higher profits for them by letting the Swiss run things and taking fees off the top than if the Germans controlled everything?

Quote:

... I don't have time to explain why you are wrong.



No, you don't have the ability.

I have read military accounts of the Nazi's decisions. They would have taken over Switzerland if the cost was not so great. Hitler had referred to Switzerland as a pimple on the face of Europe, his generals estimated that it would take at least eighteen division to dislodge the Swiss from their defensive fortifications. This was a cost the Nazis were unwilling to bear until their other European enemies (Britain and The Soviet Union) were defeated.

So, if they couldn't afford to defeat them right away they might as well use their services until a more opportune time arose, right?

I have gone over this in previous posts, but as usual you have chosen to ignore what I presented and to remain stubbornly ignorant. Since efforts to get you to think are akin to getting a worm to fly under it's own power, I will refrain from further attempts at explaining to you what you are unable or unwilling to comprehend. This is the end of my discussion with you on this tangent.


--------------------
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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2587778 - 04/21/04 07:32 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
I support the use of deadly force only when it is absolutely necessary to do so. If a situation was dire enough to warrant the use of troops overseas, I might support it, but aside from World War II, I have yet to see any such situation.




In your initial post that began this thread, you quoted Hicks as saying the "hired killers" comment. The context of how you did this means that, no matter what, at the end of the day, they are still "hired killers". If you think this, and you are making a judgment call as to them being "hired killers", then no matter what the war, no matter what the justificaiton, this label that you deem negative still applies. If the military personnel are lining children up against a wall and machine-gunning them, they are still as much of a "hired killer" as the military personnel that are liberating the concentration camps, or Europe, and thus, are still "Wrong" in your book.

Second, your guidelines for justification of force seem to change as the thread deepens. We go from "self-defense", to "defense", and now, a very vague "dire enough". Which is it?

Third, you still haven't answered the question as to who decides that a "defensive" action is needed. For the Iraq war, without knowing what we know now, the majority of the people, the majority of Congress and the Senate, and the leader of the US Military all believed (Well, "maybe" the CinC 'lied') that we were taking defensive action. What possible more could you want to justify it being a "defensive" action? Should we always wait until we are struck first until we counter attack? Should a single voice of dissent, or a minority voice of dissent, be the voice that speaks and controls our action? Since, as you said earlier, we beleived that it was a defensive action, wouldn't it be justified according to the, let me count, ah yes, the second revision that you said of when to justify the use of combat troops? If "everyone" knew that the Japs were off of the coast launching planes on that December day, and the president, the congress, the senate, and the majority of the Americans wanted to shoot down the squadron of Zero's flying towards Hawaii, but one person who was "seeing through the propaganda" says "Hey now! Those Zeros are just trying to get a nice look at beautiful Pearl Harbor, I don't feel that we need to adopt a defensive posture!" should we not do it? You've already (three times, by my count) defined and redefined the acceptable use of force, but you haven't really said who makes the decision as to wether or not something is defensive,or if it's not defensive.

Finally, you have now updated (as of 7:28PM EST, further revisions expected) the definition of acceptable use of hired killers as when a "dire need" exists. If Hitler was a dire need due to his propensity towards attacking neighboring states and gassing minorities, wouldn't Iraq STILL be a justifed war?

Tip: Write the first paragraph of your post to contain the main central point of it, rather than a quote meant to cause reaction. Then, follow that paragraph up with expository writing that supports the premise or point you are trying to defend. Then we could clearly understand what you mean, and debate it point by point. It would certaintly give you more ground to stand on than a one-liner from a dead comedian, and your constnatly morphing definition and criteron for acceptable use of our hired killers.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2587784 - 04/21/04 07:35 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
I use tools. I laugh at tools. I send tools to die so that I can have cheap gasoline. I do not respect tools. Obviously, they dont respect themselves, or they wouldn't have put themselves in that position.




You don't respect any tool of any form? You "obviously" don't use tools on a regular basis. I respect, care for, and treat my tools in my machine shop quite well. Also, the "send tools to die" thing, showing how you 'hate the troops' doesn't really make you a badass, or make people think that you are more convinced that you are right, it just makes you look like a, well, tool. And I'm not talking about the work bench tool.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2587887 - 04/21/04 08:24 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

germin8tionn8ion said:

You don't respect any tool of any form? You "obviously" don't use tools on a regular basis. I respect, care for, and treat my tools in my machine shop quite well. Also, the "send tools to die" thing, showing how you 'hate the troops' doesn't really make you a badass, or make people think that you are more convinced that you are right, it just makes you look like a, well, tool. And I'm not talking about the work bench tool.




hmmmm.... I wonder if your problems with reading comprehension have anything to do with the ignorance of your opinion.

Sure, I respect the tools I use in my work or in my art. But I don't have the same respect for tools as I do for human beings. When my hammer breaks, I go buy a new one. I don't hold a funeral for it. But anyway, I dont see what any of that has to do with whether I use tools on a regular basis or not.

When I used the word 'tools' in my previous post I meant it in a human way as in "that person is a tool". As in "that person has no respect for himself to the point where he is willing to sign all of his rights away to the government and become a souless mercenary."

Also- not once in my post did I say I "hate the troops". I simply don't respect their decision and won't be surprised or sorry for them when their short lives are filled with pointless agony and suffering. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Thats all I'm sayin.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2587916 - 04/21/04 08:30 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

To try and get back on topic, I would include in the phrase "supporting our troops" financial support. Silversoul, despite a conflict you feel is unjust, do you feel it proper to allocate the resources neccesary to allow our troops to accomplish their mission and survive in the process?


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2588025 - 04/21/04 08:56 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
To try and get back on topic, I would include in the phrase "supporting our troops" financial support. Silversoul, despite a conflict you feel is unjust, do you feel it proper to allocate the resources neccesary to allow our troops to accomplish their mission and survive in the process?



Sure, as long as it is not forced out of someone's rightful income. If someone supports the war, they should show it by financing it. Those who are opposed to it should not be forced to pay.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2588068 - 04/21/04 09:03 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

If such a system was implemented right now with our troops remaining in Iraq, and there simply wasn't enough money flowing in to provide the troops with supplies neccesary to accomplish the mission and survive, would you send money regardless of your dislike for the war?


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2588083 - 04/21/04 09:04 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

No, I would petition Congress to send our troops home, as they clearly could not afford to keep them there.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2588124 - 04/21/04 09:11 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Would the national guard you admitted would be neccesary earlier in the thread be financed voluntarily?


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2588141 - 04/21/04 09:14 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Not exactly. It would be financed by a land value tax, which taxes land use. Since nobody rightfully owns the land, it is just to charge them a percentage of the land value for using land for private use.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2588204 - 04/21/04 09:28 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Can you clarify that?


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2588219 - 04/21/04 09:32 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Can you clarify that?



Yes, but I've done so too many times already. Read this if you want to know more:
http://www.henrygeorge.org/rem0.htm


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2588372 - 04/21/04 10:01 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
hmmmm.... I wonder if your problems with reading comprehension have anything to do with the ignorance of your opinion.





"I use tools. I laugh at tools. I send tools to die so that I can have cheap gasoline. I do not respect tools. Obviously, they dont respect themselves, or they wouldn't have put themselves in that position. "





Sure, I respect the tools I use in my work or in my art..




and you bring my reading and comprehension into question
Quote:


But I don't have the same respect for tools as I do for human beings. When my hammer breaks, I go buy a new one. I don't hold a funeral for it. But anyway, I dont see what any of that has to do with whether I use tools on a regular basis or not.




Your post showed that you "do not have any respect for tools". You don't specifically indicate that you mean the "hired killers",you say "tools" in general.
Quote:


When I used the word 'tools' in my previous post I meant it in a human way as in "that person is a tool". As in "that person has no respect for himself to the point where he is willing to sign all of his rights away to the government and become a souless mercenary."




I've usually thought of referring to someone as a 'tool' to be synonomous with being a 'dick'. However, you didn't say that in the previous post, you said "I have no respect for tools". A tool is an implement. Show me a dictionary that shows that "tool" refers to the US military, and i'll admit my comprehension mistake.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2588542 - 04/21/04 10:36 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I have a question. Who cares what you call the tax? It's still coming from your personal income.

If tomorrow there was no such thing as income tax, and all taxes were paid in the name of something else, it would still be money from your pocket.

What's the point?

Would a turd by any other name smell as rank?


--------------------
YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Ekstaza]
    #2589027 - 04/22/04 12:12 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

If tomorrow there was no such thing as income tax, and all taxes were paid in the name of something else, it would still be money from your pocket.



It's not just a matter of what you call it. It's a matter of what you're taxing. A person who doesn't own land wouldn't have to pay a land value tax. This is not a case of taking one thing and calling it something else.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2589045 - 04/22/04 12:15 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

What is your reasoning that someone can't own land?


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2589056 - 04/22/04 12:17 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Because the land was not produced by human effort. Therefore nobody can rightfully claim it as their own.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2589067 - 04/22/04 12:19 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I don't really support or ridicule the troops, just let them be. It was their choice to join the army/ let themselves get drafted, and now they pay the consequences, whether they be good or bad. I expect some troops to die; without death there wouldn't be a war, and I expect many of them are also corrupt.

I do have some friends in the army, not sure what the hell went through their heads, though one of them did manage to get out by leaving his post in Afghanistan and still getting discharged (not dishonorably somehow.)


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2589099 - 04/22/04 12:24 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

tool n 1. a person who is impressionable, easily used by others; LOSER; WANNA-BE. ("That guy is such a tool. He would do anything to be accepted.")

source: http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wrader/slang/t.html





Quote:


tool n... 6. A person used to carry out the designs of another; a dupe.

source: http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/t/t0266200.html





sorry. I didn't realize that you older models of human are not able to comprehend the new slang protocols. Ahh, the pain of obsolescence.


--------------------
Deep in the heart of Central Texas
lurks a Doktor
SM tool
Native Dallas brick-chopper...


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2590342 - 04/22/04 11:11 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

It would be for those of us who plan to own land or already own land and therefore would be shouldering the financial resposibility for everyone.


--------------------
YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2590363 - 04/22/04 11:21 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Ownership is an agreement that something belongs to someone. It has nothing to do with how the thing was made. I you decide to claim something then it is yours until someone or everyone else makes a claim otherwise. Land ownership works because the landowner has stated the he claims the land and everyone agrees to be legally bound to that claim as long as no other claim supercedes it.

You may wish or dream about some kind of theoretical land where land ownership is null and void but it isn't so here in the real world.


--------------------
YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Ekstaza]
    #2590397 - 04/22/04 11:33 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ownership is an agreement that something belongs to someone. It has nothing to do with how the thing was made. I you decide to claim something then it is yours until someone or everyone else makes a claim otherwise. Land ownership works because the landowner has stated the he claims the land and everyone agrees to be legally bound to that claim as long as no other claim supercedes it.



You said it right there. He claims the land. But the land was there before him. It is a resource in finite supply that was there before him, will be there after him, and never was his to rightfully claim in the first place, even if everyone else agrees that it is. Land is common property to which all people have an equal right. Using the land privately restricts people from their right to use it, and therefore the person using it must pay a tax to the rest of society for hoarding this common property for their own use. Land ownership only works because people do not see that it violates their rights.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Evolving]
    #2590430 - 04/22/04 11:42 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

This was a cost the Nazis were unwilling to bear

So it's harder to take over Switzerland than Russia? Your ignorance is astounding.

I knew it was a mistake to take you off ignore. Back on you go.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Xlea321]
    #2590488 - 04/22/04 12:00 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
This was a cost the Nazis were unwilling to bear

So it's harder to take over Switzerland than Russia? Your ignorance is astounding.




How disingenuous of you. I retract my earlier statement about not responding to you on this tangent just to point out the obvious foolishness of your response. Your inability to comprehend English or to be honest is what is really astounding.

Here is the ENTIRE quote, "This was a cost the Nazis were unwilling to bear until their other European enemies (Britain and The Soviet Union) were defeated." Emphasis added to highlight for others the level of your reading ability.

I also followed up with this question, "So, if they couldn't afford to defeat them right away they might as well use their services until a more opportune time arose, right?" Which, to any thinking person would put your earlier remarks about using the Swiss for financial purposes in perspective.

Quite baffling, really. Are you not taking your prescription meds as required for your disorder?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Evolving]
    #2591393 - 04/22/04 04:28 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Just in case Mr. Dishonest really did put you back on ignore.
Quote:

Evolving said:
Quote:

Alex123 said:
This was a cost the Nazis were unwilling to bear

So it's harder to take over Switzerland than Russia? Your ignorance is astounding.




How disingenuous of you. I retract my earlier statement about not responding to you on this tangent just to point out the obvious foolishness of your response. Your inability to comprehend English or to be honest is what is really astounding.

Here is the ENTIRE quote, "This was a cost the Nazis were unwilling to bear until their other European enemies (Britain and The Soviet Union) were defeated." Emphasis added to highlight for others the level of your reading ability.

I also followed up with this question, "So, if they couldn't afford to defeat them right away they might as well use their services until a more opportune time arose, right?" Which, to any thinking person would put your earlier remarks about using the Swiss for financial purposes in perspective.

Quite baffling, really. Are you not taking your prescription meds as required for your disorder?




--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2591632 - 04/22/04 05:30 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks.  I don't care what Alex says, you're alright in my book. :thumbup:


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Evolving]
    #2591648 - 04/22/04 05:34 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

:blush:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2593302 - 04/23/04 01:55 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

put you back on ignore.

Yep, I did  :yawn:


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Xlea321]
    #2593821 - 04/23/04 05:39 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
put you back on ignore.

Yep, I did  :yawn:



So instead of putting him on ignore why don't you honestly and accurately debate him?

Oh.... right.... because:
1. You'll lose.
2. Honesty and accuracy isn't something you've got a handle on.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2596931 - 04/24/04 02:04 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

:lol:

3. You realise the futility of reading the posts of someone who rates enima/johnnyrespect/etc with "five mushrooms".


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Xlea321]
    #2597305 - 04/24/04 07:38 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

1. I rated him before he showed what an ass he was.
2. The truth must be hurting if that's the best you can do.
3. The fact still remains ..... you lie.
4. So don't read them. I'll keep reading yours and pointing out what a sack you are.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2597309 - 04/24/04 07:43 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

No, evolving has just rated enima's latest incarnation five mushrooms.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Xlea321]
    #2597312 - 04/24/04 07:44 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

OK, my post stands though.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2597314 - 04/24/04 07:45 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

You really think it's worth replying to the posts of someone who thinks enima is five mushrooms material?


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Xlea321]
    #2597315 - 04/24/04 07:47 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I think evolving is accurate and honest. so yes, his posts are worth reading.

Besides PinochhiALPO, it's not definite he is the new enima.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (04/24/04 07:50 AM)


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2597439 - 04/24/04 10:04 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

:yawn:


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Xlea321]
    #2597534 - 04/24/04 11:35 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

What a surprise to see that's the best you can do.

Now, you be honest WOULD be a surprise.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Xlea321]
    #2599697 - 04/25/04 02:15 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Okay, folks.

The topic of this thread is "Supporting our troops," not "Why I believe a new member is a puppet of a perma-banned ex-member".

Back on topic, please.

pinky


--------------------


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