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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2584653 - 04/20/04 10:51 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Why should the president be fired for making a very sound decision based on what he was presented as fact because the information turned out to be fallacious?



Because he appointed the liars who presented this information as fact. Also, based on the current situation in Iraq, I have a hard time believe that the way Bush went about this was a "sound decision."


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2584669 - 04/20/04 10:57 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I said sound decision, not sound course of action. Was George Tenet appointed by Bush? Members of the Senate Foreign Intelligence Committee?


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2584685 - 04/20/04 11:01 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Look back to the American Revolution. What we had then was a bunch of armed citizens fighting off an occupying power. I must have missed the part where the British won.




Weak. You know that has nothing to do with modern warfare. The point is that if a military power decided on attacking us, it wouldn't be something that a militia could defend against. Especially if they didn't even use a ground force. Maybe they just decided to lob 25 cruise missles per day, everyday until we are effectively living in the Stone Age again.

But I digress. Your main point is that you shouldn't be asked to "suppport the troops."

You claim you have "respect" for everyone, regardless of their actions or culpability. You admit that you believe maintaining a military for "self-defense" is warranted. So, it's ok for these people to defend us if the need arises, but as soon as their cause develops into a scenario you deem unjust they should no longer deserve your respect (or will you try and fit the definition to suit you again)? If it is wrong for the people to be part of a military because they might be called on to kill, then it must be wrong to have a military. But didn't you say in some situations it was permissable?

So if regardless of the situation they're put in, it's their fault because they shouldn't have joined. A kind of "they get what they deserve" arrangement they've put themselves into. Hmmm....I suppose you also believe woman deserves to be raped for wearing suggestive clothing.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2584699 - 04/20/04 11:06 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

If it is wrong for the people to be part of a military because they might be called on to kill, then it must be wrong to have a military. But didn't you say in some situations it was permissable?



Yes, and I did not say it was wrong to be in the military. However, if you join the military, don't look to me for sympathy and support because you made the decision to do so.

Quote:

So if regardless of the situation they're put in, it's their fault because they shouldn't have joined. A kind of "they get what they deserve" arrangement they've put themselves into. Hmmm....I suppose you also believe woman deserves to be raped for wearing suggestive clothing.



No I do not, and that is a bad analogy. A more comparable situation would be a person complaining about getting an STD when they don't use condoms. You play with fire, you get burned.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2584720 - 04/20/04 11:10 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Of course I would tell someone to stay safe. I would also advise them not to join the military in the first place. If they decide to do so anyway, that's their problem, not mine.




It most certainly is your problem as it is every other US citizens problem. The military isn't just a tool for wartime. It's an impliment of peace as well. It assures you and I that we will not be infringed upon by others. It is a promise to hostile forces that action can and will be taken in our defense.

Sure it'd be nice to have things go our way all of the time, but that is just not going to happen. Our lives cannot be left to chance in the hands of a part-time force of militia that must be first called away from their regular jobs and briefed before they can defend us. We need a full-time military that can be ready to do what is deemed neccessary at the time to offer up a good defense. If noone volunteers, you may be forced to step up or go to jail. If there were no one joining the military, our government would eventually have to reinstate the draft. I've already volunteered and served my country, so you can guess how I feel about sending draft dodgers to jail.


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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Ekstaza]
    #2584734 - 04/20/04 11:15 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

It most certainly is your problem as it is every other US citizens problem. The military isn't just a tool for wartime. It's an impliment of peace as well. It assures you and I that we will not be infringed upon by others. It is a promise to hostile forces that action can and will be taken in our defense.



Not if those hostile forces are in our own government.

Quote:

Sure it'd be nice to have things go our way all of the time, but that is just not going to happen. Our lives cannot be left to chance in the hands of a part-time force of militia that must be first called away from their regular jobs and briefed before they can defend us. We need a full-time military that can be ready to do what is deemed neccessary at the time to offer up a good defense. If noone volunteers, you may be forced to step up or go to jail. If there were no one joining the military, our government would eventually have to reinstate the draft. I've already volunteered and served my country, so you can guess how I feel about sending draft dodgers to jail.



If someone wants to join the military, that's their choice. But I'm not going to support their decision just because they've deluded themselves into thinking they're protecting my freedom.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2584777 - 04/20/04 11:28 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
If someone wants to join the military, that's their choice. But I'm not going to support their decision just because they've deluded themselves into thinking they're protecting my freedom.




I think it's you that must be deluded in thinking that any nation can be an island impervious to outside forces. Foreign relations will always affect us. And I mean you too Silversoul7. Your freedom isn't something that you just have, regardless of outside forces. This war in Iraq isn't the be-all-end-all of what our US troop stand for. They are much more than we are because they are out there doing what it takes to keep it safe for you and I to debate their worth.

Going into Iraq wasn't what I call a good idea either, but demeaning our troops isn't going to change the fact that it happened. Also we can't just walk away whistling with our hands behind our backs like nothing happened. Support our troops by requesting that they be brought back. How's about that? Why should they be disregarded?


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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Ekstaza]
    #2584781 - 04/20/04 11:29 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I think it's you that must be deluded in thinking that any nation can be an island impervious to outside forces.



Go ask Costa Rica about its military.


--------------------


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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2584848 - 04/20/04 11:51 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Go ask Costa Rica about its military.




O.K., I did. I learned some interesting facts also. Sure they abolished their military, but they did so with the thinking that the US would come to their rescue if they were attacked. What's it going to be? Are we now supposed to lay down all of our defenses and expect some one else to defend us if there is a need? Who will then protect poor defenseless Costa Rica?

Feel free to read what I read.
http://www.keytocostarica.com/aunique.htm


--------------------
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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Ekstaza]
    #2584942 - 04/21/04 12:18 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I am not saying that we need to completely abolish our military, but we do not need to station troops abroad and invade foreign nations to be free. Just like Costa Rica, we have allies who would come to our aid if we were attacked. Oh, and to the best of my knowledge, no nation has attempted to attack Costa Rica since its abolition of the military.


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2585189 - 04/21/04 01:28 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


Yes, and I did not say it was wrong to be in the military. However, if you join the military, don't look to me for sympathy and support because you made the decision to do so.





So you have no problem with other people supporting them then? Would you not say that the majority of the nation mirror's this sentiment?

Quote:

No I do not, and that is a bad analogy. A more comparable situation would be a person complaining about getting an STD when they don't use condoms. You play with fire, you get burned.




Sigh. I thought that perhaps you would have been a little more critical of the analogy, but I suspected you might dismiss it.

Why does a woman wear suggestive or provocative clothing? To satisify her ego so she feels good about herself? To project a certain image that she feels representative of her ego? (both reasonable unless you disagree) Or most essentially, because she chose to do something she wanted. She probably even thought it was the right decision. But does she have any control over someone who imposes their will upon her?

Why does someone join the military? To serve their country? To get an education? Because they believe it the most attractive oppourtunity available? I'm sure you can extrapolate the rest.

So, there's nothing wrong with wearing what she wants, but if she gets raped, don't look to you for sympathy or support because she made the decision to do so, at least that should be your position then if your consistent.

You said "I did not say it was wrong to be in the military. However, if you join the military, don't look to me for sympathy and support because you made the decision to do so." So even though they did what they thought was the right choice, a choice you acknowledge as honorable, and get forced to do something you find reprehensible, they get no compassion from you? As you said, "you play with fire, you get burned." So much for tolerance.

Moving on.

You said there is nothing wrong with joining the military. If there is nothing wrong, then it must be morally just. Do you not expect people to be aware of and practice that which is moral?

Above I asked you some questions which I would now like to forecast your answers to. Since it isn't wrong to be in the military, no one should be criticized for supporting them. And because it isn't wrong, and what's not wrong is by extension right, it's understandable that majority of the nation feels that way. And considering this is what the majority of the nation feels is right, as you have said you do, doesn't it make sense they would encourage others to do what is right. Could you see how it may even be puzzling to someone how you could claim it okay, but that you refuse to show support and you feel demonized that others would expect this from you?

Why is that sometimes you are able to objectively analyze a situation, remain rational and possibly even admit fault, while others, you seem to adopt a position in direct contrast to logic and constantly change your position to support it.

Oh, and what exactly did the person complaing about STD's have in relation with someone who joins the military and how is that a more appropriate analogy if you wouldn't mind?


--------------------
I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2586239 - 04/21/04 10:30 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

while i think that the war was expensive and counterproductive toward fighting terrorism, i can't say that i do not support the troops. i believe that they are there for the purpose of good, and while i don't think the war made us any safer (and perhaps even less safe) and was an improper use of funds, i do respect what they are trying to accomplish.


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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2586306 - 04/21/04 10:54 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

silversoul7 writes:

I used to think like that....

Yes, you did. And not all that long ago either:

"The troops didn't start this war. Bush did. They are only doing their job. If they refuse to fight, they'll get courtmarshalled. They don't set the policy. They are required to follow orders. I support our troops and hope they return home safely." -- http://www.shroomery.org/archives/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1406038&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

....but then it dawned on me that I don't want to support hired killers.

I'm curious. When did it dawn on you, and was there anything specific that led to this reversal? Reading a news article? Watching a movie? Eating some mushrooms?

pinky


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2586710 - 04/21/04 01:48 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

HagbardCeline said:
Quote:


Yes, and I did not say it was wrong to be in the military. However, if you join the military, don't look to me for sympathy and support because you made the decision to do so.





So you have no problem with other people supporting them then? Would you not say that the majority of the nation mirror's this sentiment?



No, I have no problem with other people supporting them(but not with my tax dollars). I just don't think that I should be expected to support the troops, or even buy into the crap about them protecting our freedoms.

Quote:

Quote:

No I do not, and that is a bad analogy. A more comparable situation would be a person complaining about getting an STD when they don't use condoms. You play with fire, you get burned.




Sigh. I thought that perhaps you would have been a little more critical of the analogy, but I suspected you might dismiss it.

Why does a woman wear suggestive or provocative clothing? To satisify her ego so she feels good about herself? To project a certain image that she feels representative of her ego? (both reasonable unless you disagree) Or most essentially, because she chose to do something she wanted. She probably even thought it was the right decision. But does she have any control over someone who imposes their will upon her?



Wearing provocative clothing comes with the implicit understanding that guys will be attracted to her, but not that they will rape her. Joining the army, on the other hand, comes with the implicit understanding that you will be shot at and possibly killed.

Quote:

Why does someone join the military? To serve their country? To get an education? Because they believe it the most attractive oppourtunity available? I'm sure you can extrapolate the rest.



But as I said, it comes with the implicit understanding that they will be shot at and possibly killed. They know the risks when going in. Let them deal with it.

Quote:

You said "I did not say it was wrong to be in the military. However, if you join the military, don't look to me for sympathy and support because you made the decision to do so." So even though they did what they thought was the right choice, a choice you acknowledge as honorable, and get forced to do something you find reprehensible, they get no compassion from you? As you said, "you play with fire, you get burned." So much for tolerance.



First of all, I don't remember saying that I considered it honorable to join the military. As for compassion, they get the same amount from me that any other human being would get. No more, no less.

Quote:

You said there is nothing wrong with joining the military. If there is nothing wrong, then it must be morally just. Do you not expect people to be aware of and practice that which is moral?



I did't say that there was nothing wrong with joining the military. I merely denied having said that there was something wrong with it. There's a difference. And by the way, there is such a thing as moral neutrality.

Quote:

Above I asked you some questions which I would now like to forecast your answers to. Since it isn't wrong to be in the military, no one should be criticized for supporting them. And because it isn't wrong, and what's not wrong is by extension right, it's understandable that majority of the nation feels that way. And considering this is what the majority of the nation feels is right, as you have said you do, doesn't it make sense they would encourage others to do what is right. Could you see how it may even be puzzling to someone how you could claim it okay, but that you refuse to show support and you feel demonized that others would expect this from you?



Again, I NEVER said that joining the military was right. Militarism is the milk on which our corrupt government has gotten fatter over the past century. I might be more supportive of the military if it were actually defending us rather than serving the corrupt agendas of power-hungry politicians.

Quote:

Why is that sometimes you are able to objectively analyze a situation, remain rational and possibly even admit fault, while others, you seem to adopt a position in direct contrast to logic and constantly change your position to support it.



First of all, there is no such thing as being objective. I would guess that the situations in which you feel I am objective and logical are those in which you agree with me, whereas the ones in which you feel I am being illogical are this in which you disagree. As for changing my position, that is commonly known as being open-minded.

Quote:

Oh, and what exactly did the person complaing about STD's have in relation with someone who joins the military and how is that a more appropriate analogy if you wouldn't mind?



In both situations, the person knowingly puts themselves in a risky situation(assuming the person with STD's has had some sort of sex education), and they have to live(or die) with the consequences.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Phred]
    #2586723 - 04/21/04 01:50 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
silversoul7 writes:

I used to think like that....

Yes, you did. And not all that long ago either:

"The troops didn't start this war. Bush did. They are only doing their job. If they refuse to fight, they'll get courtmarshalled. They don't set the policy. They are required to follow orders. I support our troops and hope they return home safely." -- http://www.shroomery.org/archives/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1406038&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

....but then it dawned on me that I don't want to support hired killers.

I'm curious. When did it dawn on you, and was there anything specific that led to this reversal? Reading a news article? Watching a movie? Eating some mushrooms?



Well, let's just say that I'm a person with a lot of time on my hands, and in that time, I tend to do a lot of thinking. This thread is more about testing an idea for flaws than actually stating a position.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2586886 - 04/21/04 02:47 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Do you support U.S. troops on foreign soil under certain circumstances? If the United States is attacked are we to simply defend or is going on the offense if such is how we can end a war valid by you?


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2586903 - 04/21/04 02:52 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I support the use of deadly force only when it is absolutely necessary to do so. If a situation was dire enough to warrant the use of troops overseas, I might support it, but aside from World War II, I have yet to see any such situation.


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2586931 - 04/21/04 02:59 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Well as your National Guard plus Armed Populace won't be able to accomplish that, you pretty much just support a military(as we have now) that is used in manners are that are just and neccesary. Wish you would have clarified that in the first place.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2586938 - 04/21/04 03:01 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I support the existence of the military, yes. I'm not so sure that that's the same as "supporting our troops." In fact, now that I think about it, it would've helped if I had started this thread by asking what is meant by that phrase.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2586949 - 04/21/04 03:04 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Agreed.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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