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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2583793 - 04/20/04 06:33 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I support them because they are putting their lives on the line to make the world a better place. There will never be a world without violence, so it is always necessary to use some violence to prevent widespread violence. Our troops disarmed a threat (or at least what we had believed was a threat) and now they are trying to bring democracy and a better quality of life to the people they are temporarily occupying. They deserve a thanks.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2583809 - 04/20/04 06:43 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I don't think I could say for sure. It depends on what you define as combat, and combat support positions. For example, every man on a tank crew is in a "Combat position", tho one man doesn't do anything but driving. Albeit, he's drive a 500 ton killing machine, but he doesn't kill, directly.



Sounds similar to the guy driving the car in a drive-by shooting.

Quote:

A man running a gas chamber killing innocent Jews deserves as much respect as a man liberating the camp? I don't really think so.



You're entitled to your opinion, but IMO all humans deserve equal respect. Note, however, that respect and admiration are different things. I certainly don't admire the guy running the gas chamber, but I respect him as a human being.

Quote:

You actually haven't made a statement, other than to say that not supporting the US troops is considered unpatriotic. Reading your inital post a few times over, I can't see anything about your actual position. Do you think that people can support our troops, but not the war? If you think so, then aren't people that don't support even our troops unpatriotic? If not, what DO you consider unpatriotic activies?



It depends on what is meant by support, but if you mean not wanting them to die, as was implied by your previous post, then it certainly is possible to support the troops but not the war. However, when I say I don't support the Bush administration, I don't mean I want them to die, so I don't think that definition works very well. I think, then, that "supporting the troops" would mean supporting what they do, which I don't, and I can't see how you could do that and still be against the war.

Quote:

Ah, so you are saying that you have nothing but respect for BushCo, right? and Hitler, Stalin, pal pot, Idi Amin, the list goes on... you "respect" them, right?



Absolutely. I respect them as human beings, even though I abhor the things they've done.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2583869 - 04/20/04 07:06 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
You're entitled to your opinion, but IMO all humans deserve equal respect. Note, however, that respect and admiration are different things. I certainly don't admire the guy running the gas chamber, but I respect him as a human being.




re?spect ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-spkt)
tr.v. re?spect?ed, re?spect?ing, re?spects
To feel or show deferential regard for; esteem.
To avoid violation of or interference with: respect the speed limit.
To relate or refer to; concern.

Which of those definitions do you apply to the nazi gas chamber workers? "esteem"?

Quote:


It depends on what is meant by support, but if you mean not wanting them to die, as was implied by your previous post, then it certainly is possible to support the troops but not the war. However, when I say I don't support the Bush administration, I don't mean I want them to die, so I don't think that definition works very well.




Good point.
Quote:


I think, then, that "supporting the troops" would mean supporting what they do, which I don't, and I can't see how you could do that and still be against the war.




Ok, how about this. IF you supported the troops (or would , in theory) in Nazi Germany, that means that you don't, per se, remove them from the 'support' category simply because they are, as Hicks put it "hired killers". Now, since these men (in the WWII Era) joined the military to kill people, and not knowing exactly what "enemy" they'd be fighting, that means that you support them simply because they were in the military doing "the right thing". However, the men back then, and the men today, don't have a CHOICE as to what they are doing in the military (i.e. where they are fighting, who they are fighting). This is why, be they troops fighting at the Frozen Chosen, Guadalcanal, Iwo Jima, or Baghdad, they deserve our "support". They might have chosen to go into the military, they might even get off on killing people, but they have nothing to do with where they are fighting. Either you support them because they aer Americans that are doing their job, which includes the fact that you must recognize that they don't have any say as to where they go, or you don't.

Just to clarify something;
[p]sup?port ( P ) Pronunciation Key (s-p?rt, -prt)
tr.v. sup?port?ed, sup?port?ing, sup?ports
To bear the weight of, especially from below.
To hold in position so as to keep from falling, sinking, or slipping.
To be capable of bearing; withstand: ?His flaw'd heart... too weak the conflict to support? (Shakespeare).
To keep from weakening or failing; strengthen: The letter supported him in his grief.
To provide for or maintain, by supplying with money or necessities.
To furnish corroborating evidence for: New facts supported her story.

To aid the cause, policy, or interests of: supported her in her election campaign.
To argue in favor of; advocate: supported lower taxes.
To endure; tolerate: ?At supper there was such a conflux of company that I could scarcely support the tumult? (Samuel Johnson).
To act in a secondary or subordinate role to (a leading performer). [/]
Which of these things DON't you beleive that you should be giving American soldiers? Note: the definition referring to "aiding the cause" doesn't mean that by supporting the troops, you are aiding the cause against the Iraqi leadership and, now, the insugency, it means that you are aiding their cause to stay alive and out of harms way.
Quote:


Absolutely. I respect them as human beings, even though I abhor the things they've done.



Referring to the definition above(the one of respect) what definition would you say applies to Hitler? Do you "feel deferential regard" for him? "esteem" for Stalin?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2583882 - 04/20/04 07:11 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

re?spect ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-spkt)
tr.v. re?spect?ed, re?spect?ing, re?spects
To feel or show deferential regard for; esteem.
To avoid violation of or interference with: respect the speed limit.
To relate or refer to; concern.

Which of those definitions do you apply to the nazi gas chamber workers? "esteem"?



No, I'd go with "concern."

Quote:

Ok, how about this. IF you supported the troops (or would , in theory) in Nazi Germany, that means that you don't, per se, remove them from the 'support' category simply because they are, as Hicks put it "hired killers". Now, since these men (in the WWII Era) joined the military to kill people, and not knowing exactly what "enemy" they'd be fighting, that means that you support them simply because they were in the military doing "the right thing". However, the men back then, and the men today, don't have a CHOICE as to what they are doing in the military (i.e. where they are fighting, who they are fighting). This is why, be they troops fighting at the Frozen Chosen, Guadalcanal, Iwo Jima, or Baghdad, they deserve our "support". They might have chosen to go into the military, they might even get off on killing people, but they have nothing to do with where they are fighting. Either you support them because they aer Americans that are doing their job, which includes the fact that you must recognize that they don't have any say as to where they go, or you don't.



Ok then, I take it back. Theoretically, you could support the troops without supporting the war if you believed that war itself is not wrong, but are opposed to a specific war.

Quote:

Referring to the definition above(the one of respect) what definition would you say applies to Hitler? Do you "feel deferential regard" for him? "esteem" for Stalin?



Again, the word "concern" would be the best synonym here.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2583918 - 04/20/04 07:23 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

You're entitled to your opinion, but IMO all humans deserve equal respect.



Tell me that again after someone rapes or kills your mom, sister... or even you.

Not all people are worthy of respect. Respect must be earned.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinetrippysmurf
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2584043 - 04/20/04 08:04 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

silversoul7, how old are you? 12? When people say they support our troops, it's because they are American Citizens following the orders of the President, who was put in office BY AMERICAN CITIZENS to defend the freedom of AMERICAN CITIZENS. They are the sons and daughters of AMERICAN CITIZENS. They have families and want nothing more than to protect our freedoms. They are obligated by law to follow the orders of the President. If you don't like what they are doing, talk to your congressmen or vote the President out of office, but the soldiers are just doing what they are told will protect America. If you have a problem, it is with the politics... not the soldiers. The politics kill people. The soldiers are simply the tools politics use to do it.


--------------------
I like your Christ, but I do not like Christians - they are so unlike Christ. -Gandhi


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2584094 - 04/20/04 08:28 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Do we really need that stuff to defend our borders? The strategy of an armed populace seems to have worked out quite well for Switzerland.





Having just returned from Switzerland, I spoke at length with people that lived there about their military and policies.

You seem to be under the false impression that all are short term, conscripted members. There are full time military members.

Secondly, you believe that this provides adequate protection. It was everyone I spoke with feelings that their military was a force to be rekoned with, if it were still the 1950's. Everyone that I spoke with freely spoke about how much of a joke it was. They said it was a strong ground force, but not much more. They didn't feel they would survive a battle with any of the more formidable military powers.

Also, what do you do when you get attacked across an ocean? With a limited air force, and a virtually non-existant Navy, how do you effectively engage them?

There are many others factors to consider as to why they haven't been attacked. Perhaps one of the lesser known is there policy of no surrender. Legally, it isn't even an option for them. They would rather fight to the end, and then blow everything up (it's said they have explosives planted all over the place) than give up the country. And not forgetting the banks.

Why is it more desirable to you to have people forced to serve, than those who volunteer? Aren't you the same guy who just recently admitted you have now adopted a policy that income tax is wrong because they're forced?


Edited by HagbardCeline (04/20/04 08:31 PM)


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2584096 - 04/20/04 08:28 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

You're entitled to your opinion, but IMO all humans deserve equal respect.



Tell me that again after someone rapes or kills your mom, sister... or even you.

Not all people are worthy of respect. Respect must be earned.



I've been jumped by a Mexican gang before, but I still respect those people as human beings.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinerommstein2001
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2584108 - 04/20/04 08:34 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

That makes plenty of sense to me, luv. It's rediculous to give every human being respect, also it's rediculous to be against war for that very reason. So long as there are individuals willing to rape, kill, and torture to get what they want, violence and war are essential. This is all human nature.


--------------------



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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: trippysmurf]
    #2584126 - 04/20/04 08:39 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7, how old are you? 12?



I'm 21, thanks for asking.

Quote:

When people say they support our troops, it's because they are American Citizens following the orders of the President, who was put in office BY AMERICAN CITIZENS to defend the freedom of AMERICAN CITIZENS.



The ACLU defends our freedom much more than the army does. If we were being invaded, I'd agree with you about defending our freedom, but when the enemy is an ocean away, that's not defending our freedom. It's aggressively attacking others.

Quote:

They have families and want nothing more than to protect our freedoms.



I realize that. I have a friend who was in the army(never saw combat, though). I believe that such people are misguided in believing that they are, in fact, defending our freedom. In reality, I believe, they are more often fighting for the personal agendas of corrupt politicians.

Quote:

If you don't like what they are doing, talk to your congressmen or vote the President out of office, but the soldiers are just doing what they are told will protect America.



Were they not aware when they became soldiers that their job would involve killing? And I do vote, thank you very much.

Quote:

If you have a problem, it is with the politics... not the soldiers.



I don't hold it against the soldiers that they do what they do. As I said, I believe many(if not most) of them are misguided and truly believe they are doing the right thing. They play a part in it, but I agree the politicians are really the one to blame.

Quote:

The politics kill people. The soldiers are simply the tools politics use to do it.



Since we don't currently have a draft, that means that the soldiers voluntarily chose to be the tools of politicians.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2584147 - 04/20/04 08:48 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Also, what do you do when you get attacked across an ocean? With a limited air force, and a virtually non-existant Navy, how do you effectively engage them?



Look back to the American Revolution. What we had then was a bunch of armed citizens fighting off an occupying power. I must have missed the part where the British won.

Quote:

Why is it more desirable to you to have people forced to serve, than those who volunteer? Aren't you the same guy who just recently admitted you have now adopted a policy that income tax is wrong because they're forced?



I didn't say we had to have a system exactly like Switzerland. Fighting any war should be voluntary(remember that even volunteer soldiers are not given a choice as to what war they fight). However, I'm sure that if we were invaded, an armed populace would most likely fight back.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: rommstein2001]
    #2584244 - 04/20/04 09:19 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

if you really think violence and rape for the sake of
personal gain are human nature, I pity your existence.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2584245 - 04/20/04 09:19 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Look back to the American Revolution. What we had then was a bunch of armed citizens fighting off an occupying power. I must have missed the part where the British won.



Pseudo-sidestep. Pretty sure he was alluding to modern warfare. What is an armed populace to do against guided missles from a submarine and stealth bombers?


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2584254 - 04/20/04 09:21 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

IMHO, your explanations and rebuttals are not gaining you any ground. It is clear to me that you seem to have decided to be firmly against the taking of any human life.

Well, here's a little nugget that I'd like to impart on everyone. I believe that we as humans take ourselves way too seriously. We have imbued some kind of mystical sacredness upon our lives at the same time that we are multiplying into infinity so as to choke out all other life on earth. Not every life is sacred. In order for new life to succeed, some other life must be sacrificed.

In the context of this thread, some people must die sometimes in order for others to live and prosper. It can't be all rosy and perfect all of time. There will always be someone out there that harbors ill intent towards others. Someone must be ready and willing to do what it takes to answer that threat.


--------------------
YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2584267 - 04/20/04 09:24 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Quote:

Look back to the American Revolution. What we had then was a bunch of armed citizens fighting off an occupying power. I must have missed the part where the British won.



Pseudo-sidestep. Pretty sure he was alluding to modern warfare. What is an armed populace to do against guided missles from a submarine and stealth bombers?



Nothing if the goal is destruction. But most invaders just try to fight the army. It's a lot harder for them if they don't know who the enemy is. Example: Vietnam


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Ekstaza]
    #2584278 - 04/20/04 09:28 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

IMHO, your explanations and rebuttals are not gaining you any ground. It is clear to me that you seem to have decided to be firmly against the taking of any human life.



They only do not gain ground with people who believe that taking human life(even if not in self-defense) is ok.

Quote:

Well, here's a little nugget that I'd like to impart on everyone. I believe that we as humans take ourselves way too seriously. We have imbued some kind of mystical sacredness upon our lives at the same time that we are multiplying into infinity so as to choke out all other life on earth. Not every life is sacred. In order for new life to succeed, some other life must be sacrificed.



This is why we have things like diseases, accidents, and old age.

Quote:

In the context of this thread, some people must die sometimes in order for others to live and prosper. It can't be all rosy and perfect all of time. There will always be someone out there that harbors ill intent towards others. Someone must be ready and willing to do what it takes to answer that threat.



As I said, I am all for defending our borders, and would gladly join any militia that was trying to fend of an invader. However, there is no need to go overseas and fight other people in their own land.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2584292 - 04/20/04 09:31 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I've been jumped by a Mexican gang before, but I still respect those people as human beings.



Right.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2584295 - 04/20/04 09:32 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Nothing if the goal is destruction. But most invaders just try to fight the army. It's a lot harder for them if they don't know who the enemy is. Example: Vietnam



Keyword being most. Being attacked for the sake of destruction is entirely plausible (you're supplying crucial arms and supplies to country x, so country y who x is fighting, knowing you have no means of defense, obliterates your production capability with their insuperable technology). A standing, modern army is at the minimal a neccesary deterrant.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2584304 - 04/20/04 09:36 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Quote:

Nothing if the goal is destruction. But most invaders just try to fight the army. It's a lot harder for them if they don't know who the enemy is. Example: Vietnam



Keyword being most. Being attacked for the sake of destruction is entirely plausible (you're supplying crucial arms and supplies to country x, so country y who x is fighting, knowing you have no means of defense, obliterates your production capability with their insuperable technology). A standing, modern army is at the minimal a neccesary deterrant.



Which is exactly why arming other countries is a bad idea.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Supporting our troops [Re: silversoul7]
    #2584339 - 04/20/04 09:43 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Which is exactly why arming other countries is a bad idea.



The word arms was not integral to my point...feel free to disregard it. Your country is simply selling supplies such as medicine and food, again country Y knowing you have no means to stop it, eliminates your capability to produce these things via modern technology.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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