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Offlinesycodelix
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Is marijuana legalization driving increases in violent crime?
    #25823831 - 02/19/19 10:04 PM (5 years, 1 month ago)

https://thehill.com/opinion/criminal-justice/430551-is-marijuana-legalization-driving-increases-in-violent-crime?amp

Is marijuana legalization driving increases in violent crime?

BY JASON C. JOHNSON, OPINION CONTRIBUTOR
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The legalization of marijuana has not resulted in a reduction in crime, as we were told it would. The numbers show the results have been quite the opposite.

In 2012, Colorado and Washington were the first states to legalize recreational use and possession of marijuana and eight states and the District of Columbia have followed suit. Other states have tiptoed into the foray by either decriminalizing possession of small amounts or legalizing use or possession of the drug for medicinal purposes. Proponents have pushed the idea that legalization would eliminate the underground, illicit market for marijuana and eliminate, or at least reduce, violent crime related to the illegal sale of the drug. But has legalization delivered on its rosy promise of peace and harmony, or has it just fueled a spike in violence?

A review of the crime statistics cast doubt on proponents' claim that legalization reduces violent crime; to the contrary, homicides have generally increased in pro-marijuana jurisdictions. In Denver, the homicide rate has steadily climbed from 36 in 2013 to a peak of 67 in 2018. Seattle had 19 homicides in 2013, then the rate increased every year except 2016, reaching a peak in 2018 of 31 cases. Even the District of Columbia has experienced a resurgence of violence - reaching 160 homicides in 2018 after seeing a historically low 116 homicide cases in 2017. Though too early in the year to make a meaningful projection, homicides spiked more than 100 percent in January 2019, as compared with January 2018.

The oft-cited justification for legal marijuana, reducing drug-related violent crime, is not materializing.



It turns out that legalization of marijuana doesn't eliminate the illicit black market, but may actually increase competition among rival factions of black-market dealers. State regulation, taxes, cultivation, and supply chain logistics force prices much higher for legal pot than its illegal and unregulated competition. The illegal market persists because most users aren't inclined to pay premium prices just to avoid committing a very low-level transgression that police are increasingly being asked to ignore.

Downward pressure on prices of illegal pot in legalized states is explained by reduced police enforcement of marijuana laws. The "risk premium" that artificially inflates prices of prohibited substances has been virtually eliminated. At the same time, it's likely that demand for pot has increased in legalized states because users' fear of adverse legal consequences has subsided and users from prohibition states flock to legalized states for legal or lower cost marijuana. It's not surprising, given these market dynamics, that there would be increased competition among illegal dealers. And any cop who has worked in narcotic enforcement will tell you that market force disruptions that increase competition often lead to increased violence among and between market participants.

There is also the issue of de facto legalization. Take, for example, the recent announcement by Baltimore's chief prosecutor, Marilyn Mosby, that her office would no longer prosecute criminal cases for possession of marijuana, regardless of the amount. Her announcement was met with disapproval by her own party's leadership in the Maryland General Assembly - which was under the impression that the state legislature, not a local prosecutor, should decide whether marijuana will be legalized in the state. The impact of Ms. Mosby's decision could be even more dramatic than actual, statewide legalization since there will be no legal, regulated market at all and because the immediately surrounding jurisdictions continue to enforce the prohibition of marijuana.



The bottom line? Despite growing political and cultural momentum in its favor, legalizing marijuana has unintended economic and social consequences. States beginning to consider full legalization would be wise to take a critical look at the increased rates of violent crime in Colorado, Washington, and the District of Columbia.

Jason C. Johnson is president of the Law Enforcement Legal Defense Fund, which helps pay for the defense of wrongfully accused or charged law enforcement officers and promotes public understanding and support of law enforcement challenges.

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OfflineZyiadem
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Re: Is marijuana legalization driving increases in violent crime? [Re: sycodelix] * 1
    #25824219 - 02/20/19 07:21 AM (5 years, 1 month ago)

Correlation does not imply causation, all in all the nation is at an all time low for violent crimes.


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Is marijuana legalization driving increases in violent crime? [Re: Zyiadem]
    #25824312 - 02/20/19 08:29 AM (5 years, 1 month ago)

It's because it's not federally regulated.  Federal regulation is complicated because there are 50 states; all with a voice.  All with many many voices.

So, the black market is what some people want legalized.  I doubt that is going to happen.  They are not going to legalize being a G.

I to have legitimate concerns about legalized cannabis. 

One, grow security (best nobody knows, even if legal). 

Two, withdrawal symptoms.  Sooner or later a strain loses it's potency to tolerance (desensitization).  Dreams get very difficult to see what others know, and which dreams could come true, and what it all means.

Three, doctors haven't had the experience with these drugs.  They try to keep things simple, when things are anything but.

I've never been one to want a reputation for cannabis.  Nor any business for that matter.  People are already crazy and cannabis is a very very highly complicated subject.  Socially, there is always more to learn about any topic. 

So the theory people hold about "I already know everything" and that I'm super human ego is a bunch of stoned nonsense.  Enjoy the buzz, but it won't last.

Aside from that, Walmart is selling a lot better grow stuff in stores.  Not great, it's not quite a high-end hydro store; yet.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Is marijuana legalization driving increases in violent crime? [Re: Morel Guy]
    #25824359 - 02/20/19 08:50 AM (5 years, 1 month ago)

I think in general, violence is a side effect of protecting assets.

I got set up with my only true sexual partner. I've had other 'flings' but nothing as connected.  They were all freaked out about what they knew.  So they started coming around and acting all tuff.  She didn't she knew she was weak and in need.  But there are no super hero men.

She brought a lot of weakness into my life because I was so inexperienced (and still am).  It always meant something to me, but they were all freaked out about knowing each-other for such a long time.

The main antagonist is dead now.  He probably OD'd.  There was another as well, that OD'd.  They all thought I was going to rat on the whole town.  True!

But nobody wanted to support my defense.  So it took awhile to kick them all to the curb.  No more going to my house.

All because someone got me wet with suspected PCP.  Which took a long time to even guess that's what that was.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Is marijuana legalization driving increases in violent crime? [Re: Morel Guy]
    #25824390 - 02/20/19 09:07 AM (5 years, 1 month ago)

We know sugar increases violence.  People build up an immunity to that stuff and don't realize how bad it is.

The corn syrup!

It's a lot of energy and to most people it feel empty.  I'm not that dead inside.  To me a lot of people project their emptiness onto me.  It's a lot to handle

I don't know how people can drink so much soda and feel depressed.  It's very hyper stuff.  Kids know that but learn punishment and guilt and shame.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Offlineviraldrome
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Re: Is marijuana legalization driving increases in violent crime? [Re: Morel Guy]
    #25824391 - 02/20/19 09:08 AM (5 years, 1 month ago)

"State regulation, taxes, cultivation, and supply chain logistics force prices much higher for legal pot than its illegal and unregulated competition."

"Force"

Moving a drug from the back market to legal should in theory make drugs cheaper. Everyone is milking it, taxes are too high and legal providers are gouging. The markup on black market pot was crazy, the fact it's more expensive after legalization just means there are new criminals involved.

Legal pot has left me pretty depressed, it could be half the price it is and everyone makes money. Everyone just got so fucking greedy.


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Lysergamides I have tried so far: 1P-LSD, 1cP-LSD, ALD-52, AL-LAD, LSZ, ETH-LAD, MIPLA, EIPLA, 1cP-AL-LAD

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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Is marijuana legalization driving increases in violent crime? [Re: viraldrome]
    #25824400 - 02/20/19 09:11 AM (5 years, 1 month ago)

I hear there is still a lot of shitty weed.  Seed hasn't improved that much.

People taught their finds (like always) and sell it for far too much.  While most of us get the refuse garbage weed.

It still takes a lot of seed and searching for 'keepers'.  Everyone wants their own brand.  They want to be known as OG's all the same.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Offlinemusiclover420
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Re: Is marijuana legalization driving increases in violent crime? [Re: Morel Guy] * 1
    #25824536 - 02/20/19 10:18 AM (5 years, 1 month ago)

This is all you need to know about this article:

Quote:

https://thehill.com/opinion/criminal-justice




This is an opinion piece, nothing more. Also FFS:

Quote:



Jason C. Johnson is president of the Law Enforcement Legal Defense Fund, which helps pay for the defense of wrongfully accused or charged law enforcement officers and promotes public understanding and support of law enforcement challenges.




This guy is clearly incredibly biased and spewing propaganda.

Also pretty sure theHill spews a lot of propaganda in general :shrug:


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free


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Offlinemusiclover420
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Re: Is marijuana legalization driving increases in violent crime? [Re: viraldrome]
    #25824537 - 02/20/19 10:20 AM (5 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

viraldrome said:
"State regulation, taxes, cultivation, and supply chain logistics force prices much higher for legal pot than its illegal and unregulated competition."

"Force"

Moving a drug from the back market to legal should in theory make drugs cheaper. Everyone is milking it, taxes are too high and legal providers are gouging. The markup on black market pot was crazy, the fact it's more expensive after legalization just means there are new criminals involved.

Legal pot has left me pretty depressed, it could be half the price it is and everyone makes money. Everyone just got so fucking greedy.




Dude the price has already dropped like crazy on legal weed and black market weed.

It's already pretty damn hard to make a living off smaller scale grows. It does vary state to state considerably though.

Here in Oregon a pound of quality indoor sold for 4000$+ when I was growing up, now you're lucky to get 1500$ even for high quality stuff. Now most of the $ is in extracts and edibles, as well as bulk grows.

If the price drops much more here it won't be feasible to make a living off outside of huge scale grows which only big companies can really afford.


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free


Edited by musiclover420 (02/20/19 10:21 AM)

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OfflineCamwritesgonzo
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Re: Is marijuana legalization driving increases in violent crime? [Re: sycodelix]
    #25824540 - 02/20/19 10:21 AM (5 years, 1 month ago)

No, the decision to commit violence is responsible for a drive in violent crime. Despite what some like to believe there is accounting for stupidity, people just don't like to be held accountable. Don't blame a law for the decision of an individual or of individuals. There are far too many people who would rather pass the blame for their indiscretions than actually admit that they flat out fucked up. Excuses can't keep you from facing the consequences for your actions any more than soap can keep you clean in a shit storm.


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"I've always maintained that reality is for those who can't face drugs."-Tom Waits
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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Is marijuana legalization driving increases in violent crime? [Re: Camwritesgonzo]
    #25824581 - 02/20/19 10:36 AM (5 years, 1 month ago)

It's shit in Ohio right now.  Same old same old, hyped up stuff or under-rated just as any other product on any market.

Most stuff gets taxed so much in a black market it clearly does not compete most generally, with legal markets.  If IT DID, they'd want a cut.

Cuttings are worth everything right now, is my speculation.  Going through seed to find keepers takes a very legit operation...although chances do occur.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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OfflineFractal420
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Re: Is marijuana legalization driving increases in violent crime? [Re: Morel Guy]
    #25824792 - 02/20/19 12:01 PM (5 years, 1 month ago)

The black market in every state that legalized and in canada is still going strong. The prices tend to be 20-25% lower. I dont think any drug policy expert EVER assumed legalization would totally wipe out the black market. I mean, lets say it did for weed (which i think becomes even more competitive, but not violent in most cases). Then dealers would focus on coke, dope, lsd, whatever else. Who the hell ever thought the black market would be wiped out.

The simple truth is the black market fills a particular demand, people who dont wanna pay club prices, or would rather call a number than stand in line. Sometimes it makes more sense practically. To compete with black market you'd have to price weed at like 200/oz where it becomes at least comparable and it would still have to be top notch 30% shit. And dispensaries need to be truly accessible to all. If that were to happen, then thered be competition and more dealers would sell just hard drugs. As it is now, MJ products make more than coke when shipped and sold in states that havent legalized yet

And everywhere really where say shatter or edibles from dealers are 1/2 the price of something from a dispensary etc


--------------------
Dreaming of That face again.
It's bright and blue and shimmering.
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And comforting me with it's three warm and wild eyes.

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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Is marijuana legalization driving increases in violent crime? [Re: Fractal420]
    #25824827 - 02/20/19 12:15 PM (5 years, 1 month ago)

They say they don't see much moonshine anymore.  I think meth took over.  One day they'll say "we don't see meth much more".  It'd be some drug from who knows what.

I could make meth from plants.  I don't though.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Offlinemusiclover420
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Re: Is marijuana legalization driving increases in violent crime? [Re: Morel Guy]
    #25824869 - 02/20/19 12:27 PM (5 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Morel Guy said:
They say they don't see much moonshine anymore.  I think meth took over.  One day they'll say "we don't see meth much more".  It'd be some drug from who knows what.

I could make meth from plants.  I don't though.




Probably don't see much moonshine since cheap liquor is sold pretty much all over.

If you could buy amphetamine in liquor stores we probably wouldn't see an epidemic of meth either :lol:

Though these days I feel like stimulant RC's are the real epidemic. Coke/meth will probably always be popular but some of the RC's are much much sketchier which is saying something.


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Is marijuana legalization driving increases in violent crime? [Re: musiclover420]
    #25824929 - 02/20/19 12:50 PM (5 years, 1 month ago)

Moonshine is not regulated.  Somthere is a risk there of getting heads and tails.  Firstly it's dangerous to not know what one is distilling.  Heads and tails have higher concentrations of other chemicals.

BUT moonshine can be very high proof.  That's why people still buy it.  I had a family member with cinnomin (spell check is off) moonshine.

I have seen a lot of shine at shows as well.  I know a guy who's usually in kentucky that goes wild for the stuff.  Any stuff.

There is a novelty to rarity.  Such as blotter art.  Or rc's.  God only knows what's in untested pressed pills.  I here drugs from other countries are real phishy.

So people still smuggle hash from overseas to sell in 'legal' states.  It'd be safer generally if federally regulated.  But people still will always get hustled no matter what market or product.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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OfflineFractal420
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Re: Is marijuana legalization driving increases in violent crime? [Re: Morel Guy]
    #25826607 - 02/21/19 02:10 AM (5 years, 1 month ago)

I see alot of moonshine made by friends. ALOT. I dont drink much but theyre always talking about Dragon's Breath this and that, and ive tried some, damn strong shit. The whole way i was able to find a local source for cheap organic Rye Berries was asking a friend who has a still. I also always see these alcohol soaked berries that are made from/during the moonshine process (idc about alc so i dont pay too much attention, just the rye lol)


--------------------
Dreaming of That face again.
It's bright and blue and shimmering.
Grinning wide
And comforting me with it's three warm and wild eyes.

Prying open MY third eye


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InvisibleMr. Bojangles
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Re: Is marijuana legalization driving increases in violent crime? [Re: Fractal420]
    #25828382 - 02/21/19 05:46 PM (5 years, 1 month ago)

I feel the need to play devil's advocate a little in that legalization proponents do (or at least used to) cite "reduction in violent crime" too much as a reason for legalization.  It never made as much sense to me; especially in an already violent-crime lacking cannabis industry.  As long as it's easy enough and worth it enough to get weed from legal states to non-legal states I feel that peoples' greed will get the best of them, possibly increasingly so.  Even on a national legalization level I feel that more capable, dangerous, and/or larger entities could initiate lucrative international smuggling operations, consolidate control, and violence could escalate a la a country like Mexico. 

However this author is quite biased and the article seems strategically written due to his associations.  There could also be a multitude of factors influencing the increase in violent crime in the three areas mentioned and this is only looking at the issue through the weed lens.  I come from a city that has an order of magnitude more murders than Seattle and would probably benefit greatly from universal drug legalization.  No two areas are going to be the same, no two areas increase in crime necessarily has to be caused by the same factor, correlating as it may be.  It's a statistic that cannot be ignored but pinning it on legalization is disingenuous, on the other hand brushing off the statistic as non-related to legalization is just as much so.  It's early in the legalization wave, if there is a problem then finding a solution other than "make weed illegal again" will undoubtedly make us all happier in the future.


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Francois-Marie Arouet

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Offlinemusiclover420
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Re: Is marijuana legalization driving increases in violent crime? [Re: Mr. Bojangles]
    #25828456 - 02/21/19 06:13 PM (5 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr. Bojangles said:
I feel the need to play devil's advocate a little in that legalization proponents do (or at least used to) cite "reduction in violent crime" too much as a reason for legalization.  It never made as much sense to me; especially in an already violent-crime lacking cannabis industry.  As long as it's easy enough and worth it enough to get weed from legal states to non-legal states I feel that peoples' greed will get the best of them, possibly increasingly so.  Even on a national legalization level I feel that more capable, dangerous, and/or larger entities could initiate lucrative international smuggling operations, consolidate control, and violence could escalate a la a country like Mexico. 

However this author is quite biased and the article seems strategically written due to his associations.  There could also be a multitude of factors influencing the increase in violent crime in the three areas mentioned and this is only looking at the issue through the weed lens.  I come from a city that has an order of magnitude more murders than Seattle and would probably benefit greatly from universal drug legalization.  No two areas are going to be the same, no two areas increase in crime necessarily has to be caused by the same factor, correlating as it may be.  It's a statistic that cannot be ignored but pinning it on legalization is disingenuous, on the other hand brushing off the statistic as non-related to legalization is just as much so.  It's early in the legalization wave, if there is a problem then finding a solution other than "make weed illegal again" will undoubtedly make us all happier in the future.




A good comparison is looking at countries like Portugal where most drugs have become decriminalized, it has absolutely led to a decrease in crime and preventable disease/overdoses.

Like you said there are a lot of factors, would be a good start to compare the trend in violence up until legalization and not just right before/after since these things usually have up/down years anyways. I'd bet these states have seen a steady rise in crime in general.


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free


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InvisibleHolybullshit
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Re: Is marijuana legalization driving increases in violent crime? [Re: musiclover420] * 1
    #25829782 - 02/22/19 10:54 AM (5 years, 1 month ago)

I don't remember reduction of violent crime being an oft-cited justification for legalization in the first place. Not when talking about just marijuana...maybe if you were to legalize and regulate all drugs. As, except in cases where either other drugs or lots of money are involved, there isn't a lot of violence surrounding marijuana use. Legal or illegal.

I remember most talk about reductions in crime being a result of reduction in enforcement. End the drug war, end the drug offenses.

If anything this might be an increase in cases of reported violence. As members of the marijuana industry are now able to seek help after being accosted/robbed/burglarized. Where before they would be too scared of bringing attention to their own illicit activities.

Of course, if what the author states about the dichotomy between legal/illegal sales/prices is true, then perhaps action should be taken to both remove any unnecessary/costly burdens and regulations on the legal market, and more importantly remove barriers to home cultivation.

Then again, this might not be because of competition between illegal/legal cannabis at all. Perhaps, again assuming there is an actual uptick in violence and it is related to drugs at all, maybe it is because drug dealers and the organizations which support them have suddenly found their incomes shrinking as they are losing one of their largest revenue streams and are becoming either more desperate, or are being forced into other markets...

Edited by Holybullshit (02/22/19 11:08 AM)

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InvisibleMr. Bojangles
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Re: Is marijuana legalization driving increases in violent crime? [Re: Holybullshit]
    #25830591 - 02/22/19 05:07 PM (5 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Holybullshit said:
I don't remember reduction of violent crime being an oft-cited justification for legalization in the first place. Not when talking about just marijuana...maybe if you were to legalize and regulate all drugs. As, except in cases where either other drugs or lots of money are involved, there isn't a lot of violence surrounding marijuana use. Legal or illegal.

I remember most talk about reductions in crime being a result of reduction in enforcement. End the drug war, end the drug offenses.





I'm talking like late 00's, early 2010's; 10-ish years ago.  Reduction in enforcement and prison burden was also oft cited and certainly makes sense.  You're right, the hard drugs would be where one would see a reduction due to legalization, which is why the argument always stuck in my mind as odd back then.  I got a lot of NORML/SSDP stuff then as well, so that rhetoric may have just been from them.  But yeah, they were essentially acting like cannabis is still largely controlled by cartels and the violence we see was a result, which we all know is more false than it is true.


--------------------
"It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong."

Francois-Marie Arouet

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