|
DividedQuantum
Outer Head
Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,859
|
wealth inequality
#25824892 - 02/20/19 12:37 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
It is true that wealth inequality is extreme around the world, and even in the comparatively wealthy U.S. Such a sharp division of the classes is unfair and unacceptable. But the fact of the matter is that if we divided up all the wealth of the billionaire class, it would not be enough to sustain everyone for more than a very brief period. According to Forbes, there are 540 billionaires in the U.S. as of 2019. Their wealth totals to $2.4 trillion. If we were simply to take this money and redistribute it across the entire population, each person would have only $8,000 -- with no subsequent income. The serious problems facing our planet today go well beyond the political and the business of dividing up the economic pie. We can't just fix all of our economic woes by sharply taxing the upper classes. (Which is not to say we shouldn't do it anyway). The fractures in our culture go much deeper than that.
Is there any meaningful way to address this? Or are the patterns of civilization too entrenched to get at some of the root causes of economic inequality? It seems there have always been rich and poor. Can we in some way redistribute wealth meaningfully, or would that be a red herring as I suggested above? Is there any solution to this division of the classes, or is it just a natural and inevitable process that cannot be checked except by making matters worse?
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,177
|
|
there's not enough money to make school and medicine free, USA would need 2,500 trillion ANNUALLY, then add all the other government services, which is probably triple that figure, and that is 25,000 per person per year in taxes for 300 million people, and this seems doable, if the richer people pay proportionately more than the poorer, and children do not pay at all.
so it is not so bleak, but not easy anywhere. How do they do it in Finland where forests are beautifully maintained?
-------------------- _ 🧠 _
|
DividedQuantum
Outer Head
Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,859
|
|
Yeah, it's tough. I think the thing about the Scandinavian countries is that they have solid GDPs and comparatively low populations. With so many fewer people, things are a good deal simpler. That, and they don't mind paying 50% taxes. So, it's enviable, but not very practical to emulate. As far as I can tell.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
|
life is good
Sun and sky and trees
Registered: 07/03/18
Posts: 1,205
|
|
One thing is people aren't smarter about fixing this problem. Primarily, we do not work together. Ideally, we all just become smart enough to understand each other better, and it happens automatically.
What'y'all think?
-------------------- I didn't draw this. "Hope your day is as wonderful, loving, and kind as you are."
|
life is good
Sun and sky and trees
Registered: 07/03/18
Posts: 1,205
|
|
Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Yeah, it's tough. I think the thing about the Scandinavian countries is that they have solid GDPs and comparatively low populations. With so many fewer people, things are a good deal simpler. That, and they don't mind paying 50% taxes. So, it's enviable, but not very practical to emulate. As far as I can tell.
I understand you pretty well by now, I believe. Yes, there are solutions and I believe they will be implemented. Long term though; you gotta think very long term. Thousand years or so. I understand you pretty well by now, I believe. Yes, there are solutions and I believe they will be implemented. Long term though; you gotta think very long term. Thousand years or so. I think I doubled that post.
-------------------- I didn't draw this. "Hope your day is as wonderful, loving, and kind as you are."
|
Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum
Registered: 10/08/12
Posts: 2,659
Loc: UK
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
|
|
Hasn't this thread topic already been covered in the thread below?
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25811724#25811724
It establishes 'inheritance' as a focus, but it's basically the same thing pertaining to Billionaires and a proposal to distribute money.
OP, whilst hypothetical talk is interesting, with this repetition in mind, it seems like a lot of concern is being expressed in tandem with a very tall order, which would beg the question; are you struggling financially? - not that the answer to which needs to be broadcasted.
If so, it's best to devise a tactic rather than depend upon an idealistic economy which isn't likely to emerge.
Needless to say, you've just got to tackle issues at the root , rather than wait for the figurative hand from the sky.
At risk of repeating myself too; People have the ability to dig themselves out of some very deep holes and yield a multitude of dividends for their efforts.
Edited by Duncan Rowhl (02/21/19 05:00 AM)
|
DividedQuantum
Outer Head
Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,859
|
|
That thread was about taxing inherited wealth as a means to boost revenue. This thread is about class separation as a fundamental cultural phenomenon, and whether it can be meaningfully addressed. And no, I am not struggling, just pondering.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
|
Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum
Registered: 10/08/12
Posts: 2,659
Loc: UK
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
|
|
Good to hear.
I think the best effort we can make coincides with the old Gandhi saying:
“You must be the change you want to see in the world.”
|
feevers
Registered: 12/28/10
Posts: 8,663
Loc:
|
|
I really and truly believe America is corrupt beyond repair.
The corporate and financial institutions have successfully become the puppet masters, ingrained in every political institution and authoring the very bills and laws that would otherwise protect the public from them.
The politicians who appease them and allow them to sink their teeth in deeper are not only promised hefty campaign contributions, but are given board and lobbying positions upon leaving office, with salaries a government employee could only dream of.
They are ticks. They're sucking every last drop of blood (money) from this country, then they'll simply move on to a new host in a different country once we drop. The lower and middle class that can't afford to escape are looking at some dark and grim times in the not so distant future.
The solution? Get money out of politics, now. Cap corporate donations. Kill Super PACs. Make it illegal for members of congress to become lobbyists or sell influence upon leaving office. Clearly define corruption in government, and label it rightly as a treasonous offense.
Once politicians represent the people and not the money, the people's will can begin to manifest. The "build the wall" and the "I have 11 genders" people can argue about their bullshit, but at the end of the day I think most are on the same page in terms of seeing wealth inequality as morally reprehensible and as something that will cripple our country.
I don't have a plan or opinion on redistributing wealth. I think some form of universal basic income will become necessary as automation fully takes over. My only actual point is that even if there is a solution, it won't be enacted until corporate influence and politics become separated.
|
akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ
Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
|
|
not unless by sword (in this case, well, bullet) will there be an 'redistribution'.
i sorta can see 'workers councils' become a thing, though, as corporations bite the bullet for the sake of avoid contracts being circumvented from being fruitful- that is if it's gonna travel outside of Germany, that is. probably won't. if it does, then that's a first step- probably.
it can be addressed by consolidating nations under a banner that isn't fostered by World Federalism.
the logic of history (lao-genesis) inflates the elite whom are turned into a they-group; along with the masses, as they are imposed on the masses as something to be scorned, and whom feel scorned and at once also superior- whereas the masses also feel superior, in a 'rebellious' sense, which is an enacting of the narod's definable 'collective', that is 'of individuals' of a former ethnos which has it's ethnocentrum's integument split outwards and inwards through the narod- the masses still unable to play the role of "hero" (superior in "logic" and in "heroism" to conserve their tradition/religion/nation/etc) come to the "eternal return" of coming back to "the same ole' same ole' stuff" and thus the ethnocentrum is kept, in it's split state, intact- through ethnodynamics and ethnostatics comprehension of the necessary lack [by way of the confusion of tongues among the narod, for one thing] is met in the ethnocentrum's split complexity untoward their nature.
Edited by akira_akuma (02/22/19 10:43 PM)
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,458
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 1 day, 18 hours
|
|
Taxing the rich isn't just about taking money out of their hands, its about taking the power away that comes with that money, in order to better balance the democratic system we all live under. People with too much wealth are a threat to representational government.
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,177
|
Re: wealth inequality [Re: xFrockx]
#25831130 - 02/22/19 10:37 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
if you read the black swan (The Black Swan: The Impact of the Highly Improbable is a 2007 book by author and former options trader Nassim Nicholas Taleb. ), you will come to see that there is no logic in history except after the fact rationalization, the fabricating of stories to explain what was unexpected at the time.
-------------------- _ 🧠 _
|
akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ
Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
|
|
i already explained the fact of histories wake and it's matter of fact qualities, above.
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,177
|
|
then there it is again. no need to worry about it any more if it's already explained.
-------------------- _ 🧠 _
|
DividedQuantum
Outer Head
Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,859
|
Re: wealth inequality [Re: xFrockx]
#25831889 - 02/23/19 10:13 AM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
xFrockx said: Taxing the rich isn't just about taking money out of their hands, its about taking the power away that comes with that money, in order to better balance the democratic system we all live under. People with too much wealth are a threat to representational government.
That's right. And when the power imbalance gets great enough, history shows us there is either tyranny or collapse.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
|
DividedQuantum
Outer Head
Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,859
|
Re: wealth inequality [Re: feevers]
#25831900 - 02/23/19 10:19 AM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
feevers said: I really and truly believe America is corrupt beyond repair.
The corporate and financial institutions have successfully become the puppet masters, ingrained in every political institution and authoring the very bills and laws that would otherwise protect the public from them.
The politicians who appease them and allow them to sink their teeth in deeper are not only promised hefty campaign contributions, but are given board and lobbying positions upon leaving office, with salaries a government employee could only dream of.
They are ticks. They're sucking every last drop of blood (money) from this country, then they'll simply move on to a new host in a different country once we drop. The lower and middle class that can't afford to escape are looking at some dark and grim times in the not so distant future.
The solution? Get money out of politics, now. Cap corporate donations. Kill Super PACs. Make it illegal for members of congress to become lobbyists or sell influence upon leaving office. Clearly define corruption in government, and label it rightly as a treasonous offense.
Once politicians represent the people and not the money, the people's will can begin to manifest. The "build the wall" and the "I have 11 genders" people can argue about their bullshit, but at the end of the day I think most are on the same page in terms of seeing wealth inequality as morally reprehensible and as something that will cripple our country.
I don't have a plan or opinion on redistributing wealth. I think some form of universal basic income will become necessary as automation fully takes over. My only actual point is that even if there is a solution, it won't be enacted until corporate influence and politics become separated.
Wonderful post.
The A.I. revolution is clearly upon us. In twenty years, there won't be many jobs left. Some sort of UBI will become necessary. Or perhaps we'll have dystopia. Is there a third option?
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
|
akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ
Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
|
|
reverse the narod to a more stable ethnodynamic.
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,458
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 1 day, 18 hours
|
|
"Is there a third option?"
Jobs will still exist and people will do them for money.
|
RJ Tubs 202
Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,175
Loc: USA
Last seen: 7 days, 4 hours
|
Re: wealth inequality [Re: xFrockx]
#25835769 - 02/24/19 10:35 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Is wealth inequality related to happiness inequality?
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,177
|
|
no
|
yeah
Registered: 02/08/09
Posts: 3,729
Last seen: 1 month, 26 days
|
|
p sure ppl don't like spending 40-60 hours a week at a job where they make 1-.1% what the ceo makes
--------------------
|
mel92
Stranger
Registered: 03/10/19
Posts: 16
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
|
|
Yes, it's called Socialism
|
yeah
Registered: 02/08/09
Posts: 3,729
Last seen: 1 month, 26 days
|
Re: wealth inequality [Re: mel92]
#25864741 - 03/10/19 05:17 AM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Has socialism ever worked or would we be better off with the Nordic model?
--------------------
|
Rahz
Alive Again
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,336
|
Re: wealth inequality [Re: yeah] 1
#25865033 - 03/10/19 09:15 AM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
In the face of scarcity and mismanagement no system will suffice. If there is plenty and good stewards, any system will suffice.
Limited resources are part of the problem. Humans are the other part of the problem.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free." ~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
|
mel92
Stranger
Registered: 03/10/19
Posts: 16
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
|
Re: wealth inequality [Re: yeah]
#25866863 - 03/11/19 12:41 AM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
of course, if the people own the distribution of the main resources, instead of giving most of the profits to private share holders, all of the profits can go back into the workers, working on developing environmentally friendly energy technologies, jobs, paying off the debt and fair distribution of the wealth to the people instead of letting a few greedy people go sailing around the world on yachts while everyone else work as slaves whilst getting plunged further and further into debt. state owned businesses/organizations can be innovative and productive as well, they would be driven by creativity and necessity instead of greed and egotism and there would be less economic pressure overall
the people living in more socialist countries in europe get free education and medical care, so instantly their already 60-80-100k? better off than the average person going through college in the states before even entering the work force
more government owned businesses is the answer, even if the government in the U.S was allowed to own up to 25% of any given industry the country would be much better off
Edited by mel92 (03/11/19 12:41 AM)
|
Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student
Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
|
Re: wealth inequality [Re: mel92]
#25869317 - 03/12/19 09:41 AM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
We're tribal creatures. It has always been 'us' and 'them', and until that issue is resolved and we realise we are all one/together/brothers and sisters, then problems will abound.
I'm not holding my breath. Better to just accept it as is and get on with ones life as best as possible IMO.
I don't want to let the problems of this world bother me any more.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,177
|
|
Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said: We're tribal creatures. It has always been 'us' and 'them', and until that issue is resolved ...
is "resolved" even the right term, the issue is actually internal, though it invariably gets to be that way from exposure to adults with tribal minds.
chicken and egg systems need a pause button, otherwise any attempt at surgical remedy becomes another dead writhing patient.
-------------------- _ 🧠 _
|
tryptkaloids
Learner
Registered: 02/08/15
Posts: 12,654
Loc: Exact Center
Last seen: 2 days, 19 hours
|
|
I think we should be discussing food, not finances. we throw away enough food to feed the world. if everyone is fed then money loses value. what matters most is that I'm fed clothed and dry... other than that I don't really care
-------------------- "Remember, kids, the difference between science and screwing around is writing it down" -adam savage Flowchart for Recommended plan of action. Learn the tried and true way to grow mushrooms Use the Damn search engine After you know what you're doing, take a break Pick a book, Make some chips! Josex said:Don't take the site seriously bro, ain't worth it.
|
DividedQuantum
Outer Head
Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,859
|
|
I'll be the first to say that there should be no billionaires -- that we should take that money and do something smarter with it.
It boils down to this: The catastrophic reality is that we haven't got anyone in a position of power who is able or willing to do that something that is smarter, whatever it might be.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
|
akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ
Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
|
|
it also boils down to Time. everyone thinks they can just ASSERT "it's time." it's ironic. let the chips fall where they may and we may find these families more charitable in the end- but afterall, it either depends that charity, or someone revolutionizing the world again, which, now, would leave people even worse off. imagine that. or should we, i dunno- relax- and let the people with supply sort it out- that is, with us at the side-line, as inspectors.
|
laughingdog
Stranger
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,830
|
|
Quote:
DividedQuantum said: ....
Is there any meaningful way to address this? Or are the patterns of civilization too entrenched to get at some of the root causes of economic inequality? It seems there have always been rich and poor. Can we in some way redistribute wealth meaningfully, or would that be a red herring as I suggested above? Is there any solution to this division of the classes, or is it just a natural and inevitable process that cannot be checked except by making matters worse?
Is there any meaningful way to address this?----No, not world wide, or in large nations.
Or are the patterns of civilization too entrenched to get at some of the root causes of economic inequality?---yes, as regards , world wide, & in large nations.
Can we in some way redistribute wealth meaningfully...No...especially as wealth & power go together....and power is addictive, (as is wealth)....and the less wealthy & less powerful generally lack both the education and connections that are required for high level government & corporate functions.
(Is there any solution to this division of the classes,) or is it just a natural and inevitable process ----post agriculture & post sedentarism, population density increases, division of labor begins, along with hierarchies of power, privilege, & wealth---seemingly always.
or is it just a natural and inevitable process that cannot be checked except by making matters worse?---'Brave New World' was Aldus Huxley's notion of how a planed society, that ended war might turn out, - in his view, the price that was paid for this was terrible, but imaginable.---Like wise communism although having some merits in theory usually turns out very badly in practice. The exception may be the Israeli kibbutzim, but of course they exist within a larger capitalistic system. I am uninformed as regards the more socialistic countries of Scandinavia.
|
DividedQuantum
Outer Head
Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,859
|
|
Yes, those are essentially my views as well. My intention was to generate discussion 'outside the box,' as it were, but as you indicate, no potential solutions have been forthcoming. That's interesting about Brave New World, I'm not familiar with that book. Perhaps I'll check it out.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
|
tryptkaloids
Learner
Registered: 02/08/15
Posts: 12,654
Loc: Exact Center
Last seen: 2 days, 19 hours
|
|
the only hope is to end citizens united and get full campaign finance reform. then we need to take some power from the president and form a 4th branch of government to hold the other 3 accountable and free of corrupting forces
-------------------- "Remember, kids, the difference between science and screwing around is writing it down" -adam savage Flowchart for Recommended plan of action. Learn the tried and true way to grow mushrooms Use the Damn search engine After you know what you're doing, take a break Pick a book, Make some chips! Josex said:Don't take the site seriously bro, ain't worth it.
|
DividedQuantum
Outer Head
Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,859
|
|
How? Even if you were, on the very off chance, able to bring about such a thing, there is so little political stability in the U.S. that a new administration could just reverse it -- or create a lot of red tape, at least. It doesn't seem likely that one could bring about lasting change in such a way as you describe. And on top of all that, the Supreme Court is now mostly conservative. It doesn't bode well.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
|
tryptkaloids
Learner
Registered: 02/08/15
Posts: 12,654
Loc: Exact Center
Last seen: 2 days, 19 hours
|
|
we have the power granted in the constitution to call a convention to amend the constitution we just need 3/4s of states to ratify the bill. which means we need callers everywhere, especially in red districts wolf-pac.com
-------------------- "Remember, kids, the difference between science and screwing around is writing it down" -adam savage Flowchart for Recommended plan of action. Learn the tried and true way to grow mushrooms Use the Damn search engine After you know what you're doing, take a break Pick a book, Make some chips! Josex said:Don't take the site seriously bro, ain't worth it.
|
Rahz
Alive Again
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,336
|
|
I'm not sure a non-competitive system within a larger competitive system can survive.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free." ~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
|
laughingdog
Stranger
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,830
|
|
very interesting
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_PAC
doesn't not look promising... to me ...
but time will tell
|
tryptkaloids
Learner
Registered: 02/08/15
Posts: 12,654
Loc: Exact Center
Last seen: 2 days, 19 hours
|
|
you going to elaborate? the problem is with the marketing. most people don't know about wolf pac. the only thing about that article is it calls it a progressive movement when it is bipartisan.
-------------------- "Remember, kids, the difference between science and screwing around is writing it down" -adam savage Flowchart for Recommended plan of action. Learn the tried and true way to grow mushrooms Use the Damn search engine After you know what you're doing, take a break Pick a book, Make some chips! Josex said:Don't take the site seriously bro, ain't worth it.
|
laughingdog
Stranger
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,830
|
|
not much to elaborate: you might find this video interesting as to how deep "the system" goes, its deep historical roots, etc. and what any attempt at change goes up against...
in addition there are: (... the hidden interests of: the military industrial complex, big oil, World Bank, NSA, & CIA, on the one hand--climate change on the other hand--as well as the coming water shortage, over population, & pollution, & world wide pesticide use (monsanto: roundup & glycophosphates & the ongoing often ignored continuous cyber warfare going on between at least the USA & China & Russia & North Korea & Iran & Israel--as well as the trade wars). All of which, taken together, lead me to think a simple positive political change in the USA is unlikely to succeed.
I think the video is very interesting, maybe I will watch it again. I wonder what you will make of it.
|
|