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Invisiblekaiowas
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no beliefs
    #2580669 - 04/20/04 01:22 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

A belief in nothing is still a belief, is it not? But how far do beliefs go?  Where do we make the distinction between beliefs and ideas?

Do we believe that logic can present a way to truth? Or is it the questions that get answered will only give rise to even more questions?

can a person ever have no beliefs?  :spliff:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: no beliefs [Re: kaiowas]
    #2580731 - 04/20/04 01:30 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I think there is no distinction between belief and ideas. Beliefs are things unprovable to me, and belief such as the earth is round is not a belief , rather knowledge. So anyways now that we have science and the unknown seperated, I think it is a perfectly ok belief , and perfectly possible belief, to believe in 'nothing' but if there is really nothing out there, then what is this thought? so perhaps there is something, but yes it does indeed raise a bunch of questions unanswerable by anyone but you.


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Offlineekomstop
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Re: no beliefs [Re: kaiowas]
    #2580871 - 04/20/04 01:52 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I think there might be a difference between having no beliefs and believing in nothing..

Quote:

2Experimental said:
I think there is no distinction between belief and ideas.




I definitely see a difference between beliefs and ideas..I guess I could be missing something, but to my understanding they are completely different concepts..though they do both originate in the mind, and it seems beliefs are generally formed by ideas..but I think I still see a difference between the two.. :wink:

I generally try to keep my beliefs to a minimum..I like the idea of being open to most if not all possibilities..this is not to say I wont believe in anything though.


Edited by ekomstop (04/20/04 02:20 AM)


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InvisiblePhencyclidine
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Re: no beliefs [Re: kaiowas]
    #2581019 - 04/20/04 02:20 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

kaiowas said:
A belief in nothing is still a belief, is it not?




No, you're confusing yourself.  Or rather, the syntax is confusing you.  A "belief in nothing" is equivalent to "not believing in anything" or "believing nothing."  It is the absence of belief. The sense of "nothing" you suggest would be equivalent to saying that one "believes in nothingness", which is different.


Quote:

But how far do beliefs go?  Where do we make the distinction between beliefs and ideas?




I would say that I don't really think I believe anything.  I temporarily assume that something is correct.  And yes, I also doubt that I believe nothing.

Quote:

Do we believe that logic can present a way to truth? Or is it the questions that get answered will only give rise to even more questions?




The answer to both questions could be "yes."  It seems that you set up the questions to suggest that if one was answered "yes" then the other had to be answered "no."

Quote:

can a person ever have no beliefs?  :spliff:




That depends on what beliefs are.


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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: no beliefs [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2581654 - 04/20/04 09:42 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

>I think there is no distinction between belief and ideas.
-An idea is an opinionated conception of the mind which may or may not be true. A belief is an idea that that is accepted as factual on a personal basis. Essentially, 2Experimental, you are turning opinion into fact which is dangerous and very egocentric.

Egocentric:
Holding the view that the ego is the center, object, and norm of all experience.


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: no beliefs [Re: kaiowas]
    #2581668 - 04/20/04 09:49 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"don't ask me nuthin about nuthin
i just might tell you the truth."

(attributed to the sage of hibbing, ca. 1966)


--------------------
old enough to know better
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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: no beliefs [Re: gnrm23]
    #2582239 - 04/20/04 12:52 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

i believe in nothing in the sense that i belive nothing is absolutely provable, we can never know anything to be absolutely true, except perhaps that WE exist 'i think therefore i am'
everything else is just inferance...


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InvisiblePhencyclidine
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Re: no beliefs [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2582251 - 04/20/04 12:54 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I agree.

Wow, we're actually agreeing on stuff in S&P  :wink:


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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: no beliefs [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2582434 - 04/20/04 01:28 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I had once argued that there was no absolute truths, but I have since found it impractical. Sure, self-existance seems like an easy place to start when determining what is true. This is pretty evident to most people, and I might say it was a universal truth. What about everything being itself? Does x=x?

Inferance is reasoning from factual knowledge; it's a tool. Without it, we'd all be nihilists.


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: no beliefs [Re: kaiowas]
    #2582633 - 04/20/04 02:10 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

i believe that "zero" and "infinite" (= "undefined") are multiplicative inverses...


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: no beliefs [Re: gnrm23]
    #2582656 - 04/20/04 02:14 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"i had once argued that there was no absolute truths, but I have since found it impractical"

agreed. bvut its only impractical if you let it influence your daily actions in some ways. I look at the sun and say 'i cant prove that that exists. i cant prove its not a massive flaming god, a nova star a million miles away of an enormous shiny coin, and yet i can still close my eyes and enjoy its light on my face...

understand? no one can prove to me that this world was made according to a benevolent divine plan, nor can anyone prove to me that its is a nihilistic freak coincidence... but in either case its a good life and i live it to the fullest.

In the abscence of absolute knowledge, anything is possible


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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: no beliefs [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2583486 - 04/20/04 04:57 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

>In the abscence of absolute knowledge, anything is possible.
-It would seem, then, that absolutes do exist.


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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: no beliefs [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #2583512 - 04/20/04 05:04 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

umm... im not getting you. How so?


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: no beliefs [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2583527 - 04/20/04 05:08 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

well, if you put your hand on a hot stove for a little bit, your hand is going burn, absolutely.

saying "I don't know for sure" isn't what I mean by a belief in nothing. be;ieve in nothing to me means that they don't believe in anything. my friend said this to me, which I found impossible. then he said "using logic...." and I'm like, isn't the fact that you think that logic is the way to see truth a belief?


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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InvisiblePhencyclidine
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Re: no beliefs [Re: kaiowas]
    #2584668 - 04/20/04 10:56 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

kaiowas said:
saying "I don't know for sure" isn't what I mean by a belief in nothing.




Explain the difference you see between not being sure about anything and believing in nothing.


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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: no beliefs [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2584786 - 04/20/04 11:31 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

>umm... im not getting you. How so?
-If anything is possible in the absence of absolute truth, it would seem that absolutes exist because there are limits to what we can do.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: no beliefs [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #2584815 - 04/20/04 11:41 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

saying that you believe in nothing is you giving a definite answer.

while not knowing for sure shows that the person may give way to suggestions, but after all is said and done, doesn't know and readily admits it.

sure it's a fine line but I feel there is a difference.

having a belief in nothing is like saying nothing is possible, while saying I don't know is like saying anything is possible


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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InvisiblePhencyclidine
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Re: no beliefs [Re: kaiowas]
    #2585288 - 04/21/04 01:41 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

kaiowas said:
saying that you believe in nothing is you giving a definite answer.




Unless it implies while I'll make explicit. I believe that I know nothing but I'm not sure whether I believe that and I'm not sure whether I'm not sure about that . . . (ad infinitum).

Quote:

having a belief in nothing is like saying nothing is possible, while saying I don't know is like saying anything is possible




I disagree with your distinction, because saying that nothing is possible is logically absurd.


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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: no beliefs [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #2585514 - 04/21/04 02:18 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Possible: Capable of happening, existing, or being true without contradicting proven facts, laws, or circumstances.

>saying that nothing is possible is logically absurd.
-I agree.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: no beliefs [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #2586448 - 04/21/04 12:01 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

ok well it looks like we agree, but I had my terms confused...because I agree that saying a belief in nothing is absurd, that's kind of the point of my post really. It's because my friend said that and it made me question this. plus I've sen others think the same thing and I'm thinking "how can you say that?"

thanks!!!


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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