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OfflineCleverName
the cloudsshould know meby now...

Registered: 08/26/02
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why does creation occur at all?
    #2579192 - 04/19/04 08:31 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

if nirvana is so great, why does god create?
why does creation occur at all?
virtually all spiritual systems teach that this mundane reality, in which we live as distinct, mortal individuals, is flawed. "This is a garbage level, the quagmire of death-rebirth, the valley of tears," <-according to Hinduism and Buddhism -- and, to a lesser extent, the western faiths -- our ultimate goal should be transcending our seperateness and becoming one with our divine source.

But if mystical unity is all it's cracked up to be, why does creation occur at all? why doesnt the creative source of all things remain in its perfect, unified state? Evidently, nirvana is not really that self-fulfilling.

Just as we, the individual products of creation, are compelled to reunite with our divine source, so that source is compelled to divide itself again.


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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Anonymous

Re: why does creation occur at all? [Re: CleverName]
    #2579208 - 04/19/04 08:36 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

why doesnt the creative source of all things remain in its perfect, unified state? 




maybe we dont because we are here with egos to test our perfectness that lies within?  Everything that happens is a test of our perfectness(love)?

hmmmm  :3rd_eye:


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
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Re: why does creation occur at all? [Re: CleverName]
    #2579334 - 04/19/04 09:07 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

How can one evolve and test their soul without enduring trials and tribulations?
How can one learn if one never makes any mistakes?
How can one grow and achieve spiritual evolvement from negativity, if there is no negativity from which to learn?
What can (or can't) one truly experience and learn if everything is perfect?

Perhaps..Life is the School of the Spirit. The Ultimate test.

"Unless a man or a woman has experienced the darkness of the soul he or she can know nothing of that transforming laughter without which no hint of the ultimate reality of the opposites can be faintly intuited." --Helen Luke.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Invisiblekaiowas
mndfrayze'speppet urme
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Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,498
Loc: oz
Re: why does creation occur at all? [Re: CleverName]
    #2579422 - 04/19/04 09:30 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"virtually all spiritual systems teach that this mundane reality"

the world is only mundane if you are in a negative thought loop.

I can only explain for me but here I go...

this reality can be "experienced" in anyway you want to experience it. you can be depressed, and I could walk into the same room and be joyful. furthermore, you may notice that I'm in a joyful mood, and like *that* you crack a smile. we might joke about something and walla! the mood has been changed! so how you FEEL about reality depends entirely up to you. why do you feel this world is mundane?

the feeling of a mundane world to me is a result of not looking in deep enough. there's plenty here man. I associate the word mundane with "boring"

why would you ever be board? how can this world be mundane?

well that's easy. you want something...better yet, you desire something. it is because you are attached to a certain desire that you feel a negative emotion such as boredom, which is really the result of thinking this world is mundane. having the mindset of "this is it?" for this world clearly shows that you are depending on the external world to fit your needs of what you call "entertainment" you may desire magic (i know I did for a long time). To me, magic is in the mind, your thoughts are magic, and so are words. Being here is magical and incredible enough. this is no way mundane at all.

use your negative emotions to better yourself. if you ever get one, jsut ask yourself, what do I want, or want to happen right now that would make me feel the opposite. as soon as you lock onto that, you might be able to see that it is only YOu who make it this way.

"But if mystical unity is all it's cracked up to be, why does creation occur at all? why doesnt the creative source of all things remain in its perfect, unified state? Evidently, nirvana is not really that self-fulfilling"


think about this...how will you ever know fullfillment until you have had lack of it. how can you say this?


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflineFrothytooFlacid
Too Many Oils
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 22
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: why does creation occur at all? [Re: CleverName]
    #2580310 - 04/20/04 12:16 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Well, I'd imagine that being a spiritual being spending eternal existence in pure bliss gets pretty damn boring. This game is a nice change of pace.

It would be nice to always just let everything be, but the bullshit and questions are always barging in wherever they please. But yeah.. 'without the darkness there is no light', so take it or leave it.


--------------------
There is more.


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Offlinefaelr
the darkestlight

Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 138
Loc: st.louis
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: why does creation occur at all? [Re: CleverName]
    #2581373 - 04/20/04 04:38 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

CleverName said:
if nirvana is so great, why does god create?
why does creation occur at all?
virtually all spiritual systems teach that this mundane reality, in which we live as distinct, mortal individuals, is flawed. "This is a garbage level, the quagmire of death-rebirth, the valley of tears," <-according to Hinduism and Buddhism -- and, to a lesser extent, the western faiths -- our ultimate goal should be transcending our seperateness and becoming one with our divine source.

But if mystical unity is all it's cracked up to be, why does creation occur at all? why doesnt the creative source of all things remain in its perfect, unified state? Evidently, nirvana is not really that self-fulfilling.

Just as we, the individual products of creation, are compelled to reunite with our divine source, so that source is compelled to divide itself again.


could the source be love? a love so emmense that it had to share it with someone anyone!?! i think it went something like this...
the source said: wow! love is great i should share this feeling with everyone!
then the source said: awww son of a bitch! there's no one else but me!
then the source thought and with every thought comes creation, a new universe to be explored with infinite possiblities. that and playing with yourself gets boring after awhile.


--------------------
where i walk, i walk alone. when i fight, i fight alone. i am no one and i am nothing. yet all is that i am.


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OfflineThe_Visionaire
Torch

Registered: 02/16/04
Posts: 111
Loc: Indra's Net
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: why does creation occur at all? [Re: CleverName]
    #2581499 - 04/20/04 06:33 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

The key to this mystery is simple: LESS IS MORE :grin:


--------------------
There are no differences between men and gods,
one blends softly causal into the other.
-Frank Herbert, Dune.


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OfflineCather
journeyman
Registered: 02/23/04
Posts: 91
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: why does creation occur at all? [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2581570 - 04/20/04 08:34 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Pure Bliss by definition cannot get boring .


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OfflineThe_Visionaire
Torch

Registered: 02/16/04
Posts: 111
Loc: Indra's Net
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: why does creation occur at all? [Re: Cather]
    #2581582 - 04/20/04 08:52 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

But then again pure bliss would be non-action and perhaps non-existence as well.

Isn`t the longing to reach nirvana really the longing for self-annihilation? Does not nirvana represent the end of all learning, the end of all becoming?

When you reach the centre of the spinning wheel you are no longer moving. But perhaps it is possible to reach the center of the wheel and still know that it is a wheel. Then the pure bliss of nirvana would be more than nothingness and not necessarily mean the ending of self.


--------------------
There are no differences between men and gods,
one blends softly causal into the other.
-Frank Herbert, Dune.


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,733
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 4 months, 4 days
Re: why does creation occur at all? [Re: CleverName]
    #2581611 - 04/20/04 09:16 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Perhaps "mundane" reality is a neccesary part of the same whole that encompasses "nirvana" and "pearl jam". God knows...so ask him.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflineThe_Visionaire
Torch

Registered: 02/16/04
Posts: 111
Loc: Indra's Net
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: why does creation occur at all? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2581829 - 04/20/04 11:08 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I asked God and he said that you were right :thumbup:


--------------------
There are no differences between men and gods,
one blends softly causal into the other.
-Frank Herbert, Dune.


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,733
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 4 months, 4 days
Re: why does creation occur at all? [Re: The_Visionaire]
    #2583456 - 04/20/04 04:49 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Im glad he replied!  :grin:


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Offlinefaelr
the darkestlight

Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 138
Loc: st.louis
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: why does creation occur at all? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2583483 - 04/20/04 04:56 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Perhaps "mundane" reality is a neccesary part of the same whole that encompasses "nirvana" and "pearl jam". God knows...so ask him.


god doesn't know shit! thats why he created us. cause we can learn.


--------------------
where i walk, i walk alone. when i fight, i fight alone. i am no one and i am nothing. yet all is that i am.


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Invisiblechunder
marker

Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 965
Loc: The City
Re: why does creation occur at all? [Re: CleverName]
    #2583670 - 04/20/04 05:50 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

To me, all of life is creation. Everything we are is a reflection of an innate ability to create objects/ideas/whatever from a swarming sea of energy and information. Our languages, our sciences, everything is a way of organizing the unorganized into something new. Creation. Life is art is life.

Our purpose: create the Masterpiece. Every being goes about it differently, but the process churns on...supplying us with the raw materials to construct a perfect piece of art...a perfect reflection of it all...a perfect understanding manifested into a Symbol for it all....

To some, this may be spending their lives in meditation. To others, this may be spending their years totally focused on scuplting a magnificent statue...its not the object of creation, be it mental or physical, that is important....it is the process through which it is accomplished that we learn what we need to know.

wow, thats some slippery and ambiguous rambling there...hehe. perhaps some will identify with what im saying. peace.


--------------------


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OfflineNoviseer
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Re: why does creation occur at all? [Re: CleverName]
    #2585869 - 04/21/04 04:02 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

There were some sects in the middle ages that believed the creator God was evil, for he had created us out of nirvana. They worshipped satan, for he sought to destroy creation and return us to the blissful state before time. Basically Christianity spun 180 degrees.


--------------------
_______________________________________________________________
namaste said:
no flamz in da ODD, if you got nothing to contribute then keep yo lips zipped
_________________________________________________________________


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: why does creation occur at all? [Re: CleverName]
    #2586037 - 04/21/04 08:00 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

The term Nirvana belongs to Buddhism, properly speaking and the word God does not. Even though Buddhism developed out of Brahmanism (Hinduism), it is not useful to confuse terminology. The 'Summum Bonum' of Buddhism is Nirvana, not God. Buddha refused to answer questions about God, because asking anyone about God is just presumption (how can any human presume to know about the inner life of God? Of course, that is what theology is about), and Buddha knew this. He spoke only about what humans could do/not do to extricate themselves from the conditioned state of existence.

Judaism and Christianity are not about 'escaping' the universe as much as transcending and transforming it. Theosis is the Eastern Orthodox Christian doctrine of mystical Union with God, which has an effect on the immediate universe, and Jewish Kabbalism also speaks about 'restoration' of the fallen universe through the presence of highly spiritual human beings and the Compassion which they draw down from God. One need not become an ascetic/hermit/renunciant even though they have existed, obviously, in Christian traditions as in Eastern traditions. Mystical Judaism advocates an integration of sexuality, family life and the acknowledgement of creation as good, not evil (as many Gnostics maintained, taking their dualistic perspective from Manicheanism). As long as one does not over-value the world, become materialistic to the point of idolatry, and one recognizes God first, then one can be 'in the world, not of the world' as the New Testament says.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,733
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Re: why does creation occur at all? [Re: chunder]
    #2587759 - 04/21/04 07:23 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

:thumbup:

Peace


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Invisiblekaiowas
mndfrayze'speppet urme
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Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,498
Loc: oz
Re: why does creation occur at all? [Re: chunder]
    #2587828 - 04/21/04 07:58 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

all I have to say chunder is that you hit the nail on the head!!

good work!!!  :thumbup:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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