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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict
    #2578962 - 04/19/04 07:30 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Some interesting stuff here. Anyone have a good link to the opposing point of view?

Link


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2579116 - 04/19/04 08:13 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I think most of that stuff is pretty accurate, but most anti-Israel people won't trust the source.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2579168 - 04/19/04 08:24 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Some interesting stuff here. Anyone have a good link to the opposing point of view?



http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/8B6EB4AA-E7C3-49AC-9F3E-A70603635511.htm


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict [Re: silversoul7]
    #2579193 - 04/19/04 08:31 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2581349 - 04/20/04 04:20 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

about as opposing as it gets

Obviously pro Israel people will dismiss the opinions of terrorists as worthless...


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict [Re: GazzBut]
    #2581445 - 04/20/04 05:36 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

So does dismissing the opinions of Terrorists make you Pro Israel?


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2581559 - 04/20/04 08:16 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Thats not what I said. Perhaps I should have made it more clear and said people who are pro Israel are likely to dismiss the opinions of Hamas because they are terrorists instead of paying attention to what they have actually got to say.

I personally disagree with much of the Hamas viewpoint, as I disagee with much of the hardline Israeli position. That doesnt mean everything they have got to say should be dismissed out of hand though..thats hardly the path to resolving a conflict between two parties.


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2581600 - 04/20/04 09:06 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I have to admit that they have lots of good arguments, but after looking at it for 15 minutes I found something strange...

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Peace/fence.html

Quote:

Israel is doing its best to minimize the negative impact on Palestinians in the area of construction and is providing agricultural passageways to allow farmers to continue to cultivate their lands, and crossing points to allow the movement of people and the transfer of goods. Moreover, property owners are offered compensation for the use of their land and for any damage to their trees. Contractors are responsible for carefully uprooting and replanting the trees. So far, more than 60,000 olive trees have been relocated in accordance with this procedure.




compare it to this:

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20040407-095304-1439r.htm

Quote:

BIDOU, West Bank ? Israeli workers with chain saws cut down a Palestinian farmer's olive grove yesterday to make way for a West Bank security barrier, sparking a clash in which at least 15 Palestinian villagers and two Israeli police officers were wounded.
The wrecking crew later replanted some of the 180 stumps on another plot, but villagers gave the trees little or no chance of survival in the dry season.




I saw something about it on TV news - 50 years old olive trees were cut down by Israellis and the owner had to leave because he can't survive without his trees there anymore. Maybe he got the compensation later... :wink:


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OfflineJuanMatus
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Re: A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2581740 - 04/20/04 10:26 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

This whole conflict ought to be put into perspective. lets not forget who was there first. I am not talking about claims of my great grandfather owned that land 2000 years ago, and god said it was mine so get off. I am talking about who owned the land 50 odd years ago when the land was occupied militarily by the British at the end of WWII. The natives of this land called Palestine were the Palestinians. It was not Jewish land at the time, and it was not unoccupied as some Israeli revisionist history books say. Palestine was stolen from the Palestinians by Terrorist jews who used the same bombing tactics that the Palestinians are using against the jews now.
Menachem Begin, remember him? was a terrorist bombing British occupying forces, and later bombing and killing innocent civilians in the King David Hotel, before the British decided they had had enough and turned things over to the terrorists. The terrorists claimed that they called to say there was a bomb in the hotel, but the call was ignored. Not very believable is it. The jews then declared the territory Israel, the country was recognized by Britain, and the USA, who backed the country for UN recognition. From the time Israel has been a country they have done everything in their power to steal land from the native people, not unlike what was done to the American indian in the USA. The only difference is that the Palestinians would outnumber the jews right now in Israel, if Israel didn't keep bringing in jewish settlers from other countries. If the day comes that the Palestinians outnumber the Jews in Israel, then Israel could become the thing that the Jews fear, a democracy. Democracy, as we all know is a dangerous thing in its purest form one man one vote can mean tyranny of the majority over the minority, much like it is now in Israel. Israel has a terrible human rights record, just look at United Nations records to verify what I am saying. Palestinians are systematicaly starved by Israeli soldiers who keep them pinned down in their homes with gunfire. some Palestinians have not been able to leave their homes for 6 months at a time. I could go on and on about the human, and civil rights violations commited by Israel, but it is all there in the news, if you read newspapers that are not printed in the US or Britain. This is a short condensed version of what happened, and I do not condone the terrorist acts of either side. I support freedom, and respect for all peoples, but until the US backed subjegation of the Palestinians is stopped we will continue to see terrrorist attacks coming from those who have no other way to be heard by the rest of the world.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict [Re: JuanMatus]
    #2581752 - 04/20/04 10:35 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Well said. Few people realise that Israel have had many prime ministers who were basically terrorists, or had strong links with terrorists, earlier in their careers.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict [Re: GazzBut]
    #2582501 - 04/20/04 01:41 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Israel is democracy. If only Arafat and his PLO buddies could say the same.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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InvisibleXochitl
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Re: A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2582695 - 04/20/04 02:21 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

http://www.zmag.org/meastwatch/meastwat.cfm

That is a pretty big resource - plenty of guides, editorials, analysis, and news.

I recommend the writings of Edward Herman: http://www.zmag.org/meastwatch/edward_herman.htm


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As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2583374 - 04/20/04 04:32 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks one and all.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2583386 - 04/20/04 04:35 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
Israel is democracy. If only Arafat and his PLO buddies could say the same.



Democracy is merely the tyranny of the majority.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2583398 - 04/20/04 04:38 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Arafat is the only elected leader, apart from Sharon, in the middle east.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict [Re: GazzBut]
    #2583626 - 04/20/04 05:33 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Arafat is the only elected leader, apart from Sharon, in the middle east.




His term ended about 4 years ago.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict [Re: JuanMatus]
    #2583775 - 04/20/04 06:26 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

JuanMatus said:
This whole conflict ought to be put into perspective. lets not forget who was there first. I am not talking about claims of my great grandfather owned that land 2000 years ago, and god said it was mine so get off.




Their is only one "first". If you discount them, it's got to be "second" or some other number higher in the series.
Quote:


I am talking about who owned the land 50 odd years ago when the land was occupied militarily by the British at the end of WWII.




Ah, ok, the British, right?
Quote:


The natives of this land called Palestine were the Palestinians.




A country existed with the name of Palestine? Can you please show me a source for that (that isn't from AlJazeera?)
Quote:


It was not Jewish land at the time, and it was not unoccupied as some Israeli revisionist history books say. Palestine was stolen from the Palestinians by Terrorist jews who used the same bombing tactics that the Palestinians are using against the jews now.




Palestine didn't exist then, did it?
Quote:


The jews then declared the territory Israel, the country was recognized by Britain, and the USA, who backed the country for UN recognition.



Wait, so ISRAEL didn't exist before this, and PALESTINE did? I'm really confused, I must have been on some good ganja in history class, I got that totally backwards.
Quote:


From the time Israel has been a country they have done everything in their power to steal land from the native people




Since Isreal was a "country" numerous years before the palestinean peopel came into being (although to be quite technical, the ORIGINAL palestinean people were the Jewish inhabitants of the conquered lands of "isreal"), wouldn't they be the "natives"?
Quote:


The only difference is that the Palestinians would outnumber the jews right now in Israel, if Israel didn't keep bringing in jewish settlers from other countries.




Israel brings in settlers, the Palestineans bring in rocket launchers and suicide bombers.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2583797 - 04/20/04 06:34 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Since Isreal was a "country" numerous years before the palestinean peopel came into being (although to be quite technical, the ORIGINAL palestinean people were the Jewish inhabitants of the conquered lands of "isreal"), wouldn't they be the "natives"?



The land has traditionally been inhabited by Semitic people, which includes both Jews and Arabs. The difference between the Jews and Muslims that lived in this area was not really so much race as it was religion and language. The current Israeli Jews are mostly from Russia and Europe, and thus look more white than the Jews that traditionally lived in the region.

Quote:

Israel brings in settlers, the Palestineans bring in rocket launchers and suicide bombers.



The rocket launchers and suicide bombers are a relatively recent thing. Before that, they were fighting off Israeli tanks with stones.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineJuanMatus
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Re: A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2584336 - 04/20/04 09:42 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Regarding the names of countries, if you look at history books most of the middle east was divided up by the British into what we now call countries with no good political reason. Palestine was what that geographical area was known as historicaly. The Semites were the inhabitants of the area in question. Those Semites were the people we know as Palestinians. the Jews who now control the area "Palestine" now known as Israel, were not there for over a thousand years. as a post says above most Israeli Jews are European Jews, not even related to the native people. Their claim to the area, is sort of like Americans going back to the the Europe of their ancestors and saying my forfathers 10,000 years ago live in the area you call France, so therefore we have a right to take it. It must be a tough thing for a Palestinian Israeli citizen to walk by what used to be his home every day and see a jewish family living in their stolen home with no right to sue to get it back, and the American government saying they have no right of return to their property.
If your property was stolen, and the government would neither return your property, nor would they compensate you for it, and a foriegn government was providing $1 milliion dollars per Jewish citizen in aid to murder your children, What would you do?


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict [Re: JuanMatus]
    #2584435 - 04/20/04 10:06 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

JuanMatus said:
Palestine was what that geographical area was known as historicaly.




The Roman's decided to name the land that the people of the Jewish faith (who, as you point out, are part of a people called the semites) "Palestine", after the pracititioners of the Jewish faith, and the tribe of Semites, enemy, the Phillistines, of Goliathian fame.  The land was, as you say, populated mainly by people of the Semetic tribe.  Now, not all Jews are Semetic, per se, and certaintly not all Semites are Jewish.  The relevance being, the area wasn't alwasy known as that. 

Quote:


The Semites were the inhabitants of the area in question. Those Semites were the people we know as Palestinians.




Well, it's sort of a matter of semantics ( get it?  Semantics, semities?).  The people who declare themselves as Palestineans today (not a judgement call, just identifying the group) are most certaintly Semetic.  However, not all Semetic peoples are Palestineans.  A large number of Jewish people are a mixture of Semetic lines and European lines.  The vast majority of those who call themselves Palestinean are Semites. I say the vast majority because a child of a white parent and a Semetic parent can still be called Palestinean, but won't have the same Semetic features.
Please excuse my butchery of the word Semetic in this rejoinder :wink:

Quote:


Their claim to the area, is sort of like Americans going back to the the Europe of their ancestors and saying my forfathers 10,000 years ago live in the area you call France, so therefore we have a right to take it.




The Muslims have the holiest cities decreed in their texts, why can't the Jews have theirs, and share it with the Muslims?  The previous inhabitants, I'm speaking of the British here, did, as you note, dole he area up into seemingly arbitrary nations that I'm sure you recognize the validity of.  If you recognize the right of the British "inhabitants" to give sections of the region to whichever Muslim natiosn they want, why don't they have that same right to give the land to a Jewish nation?
Quote:


It must be a tough thing for a Palestinian Israeli citizen to walk by what used to be his home every day and see a jewish family living in their stolen home with no right to sue to get it back, and the American government saying they have no right of return to their property.




I feel very bad for them, war in any case isn't the best solution.  I feel the quicker that a peace is reached, the better off the world will be.  I don't want to come off as being a staunch defender of Isreal, because I'll be the first to critize them for their harsh, inhumanitarian practises and their fierce nationalism/hatred leading to human rights violations.
Quote:


If your property was stolen, and the government would neither return your property, nor would they compensate you for it, and a foriegn government was providing $1 milliion dollars per Jewish citizen in aid to murder your children, What would you do?



If you were renting property from a landlord, and he decided to sell that property, and he sold the part of the property that you were living on, but he owned it, would that be 'stealing' your property?  I realize that this analogy isn't totally parallel to the Israel situation, but you do have to cede that you were saying that you recognize hte rights of the other Arab nations to the land bodies that the previous conquerors,the Brits, doled out to them.


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