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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: US supports Venezuelan coup attempt - "Totally not meddling" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25787099 - 02/02/19 09:29 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Replace "CNN" with "mainstream media".




Exactly.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"Real change never happens from the top down, but from the bottom up. The American Revolution, Civil Rights movement, Women's Suffage, etc' - Bernie Sanders
Every one of you should see this video.
"Not to be a dick but we grow felonies and are adults here. And that's the real answer!" - Trusted Cultivator


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OfflineTipote
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Re: US supports Venezuelan coup attempt - "Totally not meddling" [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #25788068 - 02/03/19 11:43 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Those people in tipote's video were members of the house?



yes i think they all were, though I don't know their various positions. Some of their names come up on the screen.


--------------------
War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength


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OfflineTipote
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Re: US supports Venezuelan coup attempt - "Totally not meddling" [Re: koods] * 1
    #25788103 - 02/03/19 12:06 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Lemme guess “DURRR AMERICAN IMPERIALISM”




Absolutely its US imperialism, a blind man should see that.

Quote:

koods said:
My take is that the Chavez maduro regime is epically incompetent and corrupt. They have been scapegoating American interference as cover for their mistakes for a decade. How the fuck do you bankrupt a country that has the world’s largest oil reserves? Has the world interfered in their internal politics? Sure. That doesn’t explain the humanitarian disaster that is occurring.




Has there been mismanagement? Yes. Did too much rely upon oil prices? Yes

Do you want to ignore the significance of decades of meddling? Yes

Sanctions, repeated coup attempts, assassination attempts, freezing assets, trying to stop countries like UAE and Turkey buying Venezuelan gold, etc

This has been going on for decades. The US has funded the opposition in the tens of millions of dollars.

Whatever Maduro's flaws, a clear escalation towards violence by the US is not acceptable. Thinking that it is - is that same old American exceptionalism that some people here have internalised so much that they won't question the US breaching sovereignty around the world but lose their knickers over Russian facebook ads. 

Quote:

koods said:
The election last year was a sham and totally undemocratic. Most of the electorate didn’t even participate. Learned helplessness.




dont you see the trap youre falling into? Youre using arguments about democracy to explain why we should give the Presidency to some random unknown guy - without an election - with no awareness of what kind of party he is from, what he represents etc. Isn't that a little hypocritical?

Youre also falling for the set up that the opposition has made. You claim that the "majority" of the electorate didn't take part, do you have receipts for that claim?
The US-backed opposition boycotted the election so that they could then claim it was fraudulent or illegitimate. They didn't want UN observers to monitor the election..why is that? I'm not sure how you dont understand that this is clearly naked imperialism.

Quote:

koods said:
I also think it’s really patronizing to dismiss the popular support for Guaido or any opposition to maduro as a CIA AstroTurf plot.




what popular support? Do you even know what his party represents? No one is saying that ALL OPPOSITION ARE CIA, or whatever. In fact, many opposition groups in Venezuela have condemned this "coup attempt". It is a clear escalation that they don't want either.  The problem is with the US backed far right opposition wanting shit to kick off.


Quote:

koods said:
Talk about American arrogance, dismissing Guaido from another continent, because he’s somehow not legitimate in your eyes. The entire political system seems to be illegitimate at this point. It’s also a shame that American leftist have been duped into tacit support of a dictator because he yells about American meddling.




How is Guaido legitimate? He hasn't been elected, hes just been chosen by the US.....

Why does being against illegal invasion and coups translate as support for a dictator (he is democratically elected and far from a dictator actually)? Does being against the invasion of Iraq mean that I love Saddam Hussein??? Listen to yourself, Koods.

Quote:

koods said:
As for a coup. When your country is run by someone who refuses to allow fair elections, then be all means I support a coup if that’s your only way out.




shit bootlickers say.


--------------------
War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength


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OfflineTipote
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Re: US supports Venezuelan coup attempt - "Totally not meddling" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25788117 - 02/03/19 12:18 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Lee Camp is always funny, and he states the obvious about Venezuela if you're still on the fence...



Edit:  Note that only the first 12 minutes are about Venezuela.




You know, koods, its worth a watch. You'll easily accept Guaido as "legitimate" (:lol:) but you dismiss this outright because its RT?

Check out what points are made, if you don't believe those points, you can research the claims yourself..like you should be doing anyway.


--------------------
War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength


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OfflineTipote
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Re: US supports Venezuelan coup attempt - "Totally not meddling" [Re: Tipote] * 3
    #25788135 - 02/03/19 12:27 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

John Bolton admitted that this opens up Venezuela to American oil companies.



Quote:

John Bolton said: "it'll make a big difference to the US economically if we can have American oil companies really invest in and produce the oil capabilities in Venezuela"



Doesn't that make you pause to think for a second?

What do you think of the intercept as a source?


--------------------
War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength


Edited by Tipote (02/03/19 12:28 PM)


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OnlineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: US supports Venezuelan coup attempt - "Totally not meddling" [Re: Tipote] * 2
    #25788174 - 02/03/19 12:50 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Great posts Tipote!  :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

The Intercept is a great source for koods to read since he's afraid of RT America.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (02/03/19 01:05 PM)


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Re: US supports Venezuelan coup attempt - "Totally not meddling" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25788273 - 02/03/19 01:52 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

dont you see the trap youre falling into? Youre using arguments about democracy to explain why we should give the Presidency to some random unknown guy - without an election - with no awareness of what kind of party he is from, what he represents etc. Isn't that a little hypocritical?




No what’s hypocritical is you being the ref for internal Venezuelan politics. The arrogance of you saying “some random unknown guy.” TO YOU. He’s the leader of the National Assembly. That’s like a foreigner saying “who is this Nancy Pelosi. I’ve never heard of her.” Fucking unbelievable.

Imagine being a Venezuelan and hearing western know it alls dismissing these protests as some CIA coup just because The American government supports him. You’re just as bad as the ones supporting Guaido from their ivory towers. Why don’t you mind your own business and stop trying to make maduros opposition as illegitimate with your own meddling opinion.




--------------------
I am a violent pusher of the neo-marxist SJW agenda to destroy society.


Edited by koods (02/03/19 02:00 PM)


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: US supports Venezuelan coup attempt - "Totally not meddling" [Re: koods] * 1
    #25788476 - 02/03/19 03:32 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

dont you see the trap youre falling into? Youre using arguments about democracy to explain why we should give the Presidency to some random unknown guy - without an election - with no awareness of what kind of party he is from, what he represents etc. Isn't that a little hypocritical?




No what’s hypocritical is you being the ref for internal Venezuelan politics. The arrogance of you saying “some random unknown guy.” TO YOU. He’s the leader of the National Assembly. That’s like a foreigner saying “who is this Nancy Pelosi. I’ve never heard of her.” Fucking unbelievable.




What a joke dude. What's hypocritical is you saying their election was 'undemocratic', then supporting an unelected leader, who has no legal right to supercede Maduro. What's even more hypocritical is you calling someone else hypocritical for criticizing this man's legitimacy, when you do the same to Maduro!

Quote:

Imagine being a Venezuelan and hearing western know it alls dismissing these protests as some CIA coup just because The American government supports him. You’re just as bad as the ones supporting Guaido from their ivory towers. Why don’t you mind your own business and stop trying to make maduros opposition as illegitimate with your own meddling opinion.





You've clearly missed the points that I've made on the subject. It's not as though a political coup in South America is unprecedented. It's a fairly common event in countries that American businesses have a vested interest in.

Venezuela is a socialist country, which gives them an automatic bullseye. They have the greatest oil  reserves in the world, an even bigger bullseye. They nationalized their oil, as did Libya, and American oil companies were restricted from access. They also stopped trading oil for dollars, which is also a very critical reason that there is a coup underway in Venezuela.

A poll of Venezuelan citizens said that 81% didn't know who Guaido is. That's not conjecture, from an 'arrogant' American. That's a fact.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"Real change never happens from the top down, but from the bottom up. The American Revolution, Civil Rights movement, Women's Suffage, etc' - Bernie Sanders
Every one of you should see this video.
"Not to be a dick but we grow felonies and are adults here. And that's the real answer!" - Trusted Cultivator


Edited by Bigbadwooof (02/03/19 03:37 PM)


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Offlinekoods
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Re: US supports Venezuelan coup attempt - "Totally not meddling" [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #25788505 - 02/03/19 03:45 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)



--------------------
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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: US supports Venezuelan coup attempt - "Totally not meddling" [Re: koods] * 2
    #25788514 - 02/03/19 03:47 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
In a 2000 poll, 94% of Americans couldn’t name the speaker of the house.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/10/08/how-many-americans-even-know-who-the-speaker-of-the-house-is/?utm_term=.c4d5c15e0201




And 100% of Americans would be pissed if she suddenly presumed herself president of the United state, with the aid and support of foreign nations, and was never elected to that position. If Europe decided that they didn't like our election process, and did not respect our elected candidate as the president of the US.

The rest of my points really drive this thing home though. What do you have to say about those points?


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"Real change never happens from the top down, but from the bottom up. The American Revolution, Civil Rights movement, Women's Suffage, etc' - Bernie Sanders
Every one of you should see this video.
"Not to be a dick but we grow felonies and are adults here. And that's the real answer!" - Trusted Cultivator


Edited by Bigbadwooof (02/03/19 03:50 PM)


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Offlinekoods
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Re: US supports Venezuelan coup attempt - "Totally not meddling" [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #25788532 - 02/03/19 03:53 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Again, it’s really none of your business what  Guaido does. The laws of Venezuela are their business not the business of meddling Americans like yourself or Donald trump.


--------------------
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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: US supports Venezuelan coup attempt - "Totally not meddling" [Re: koods] * 2
    #25788547 - 02/03/19 03:59 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Again, it’s really none of your business what  Guaido does. The laws of Venezuela are their business not the business of meddling Americans like yourself or Donald trump.




I should shut up, and not comment, because I am not Venezuelan? Well, maybe CNN and The New York times should also.

Obviously what you are saying is utterly absurd. My issue is that the United States is attempting to influence Venezuelan politics in a multitude of ways (such as imposing sanctions, and freezing their assets, effectively starving a large portion of the nation), in an attempt to establish a new, unelected leader, who might give American oil companies access to Venezuelan oil, and trade oil under the petrodollar.

It is in fact my duty to have an opinion on this matter, and to be an informed citizen. Especially when there are drone assassination attempts on their elected leader.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"Real change never happens from the top down, but from the bottom up. The American Revolution, Civil Rights movement, Women's Suffage, etc' - Bernie Sanders
Every one of you should see this video.
"Not to be a dick but we grow felonies and are adults here. And that's the real answer!" - Trusted Cultivator


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: US supports Venezuelan coup attempt - "Totally not meddling" [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 1
    #25789519 - 02/04/19 12:08 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)



--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"Real change never happens from the top down, but from the bottom up. The American Revolution, Civil Rights movement, Women's Suffage, etc' - Bernie Sanders
Every one of you should see this video.
"Not to be a dick but we grow felonies and are adults here. And that's the real answer!" - Trusted Cultivator


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Re: US supports Venezuelan coup attempt - "Totally not meddling" [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 3
    #25789531 - 02/04/19 12:18 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

You know wooof, maybe koods is right - maybe it's none of our business to discuss whether a guy can just appoint himself leader of Venezuela with US approval.  That's Trump's business along with a minority of Venezuelans.  The majority opinion doesn't matter in Venezuela because koods says democracy is so important.  :crazy2:

:lolwut:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Perhaps I'm a bit vain, but I pay careful attention to my 'vote ups'.  Please feel free to 'vote up' a post that you like - I won't tell anyone.  :smirk:


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: US supports Venezuelan coup attempt - "Totally not meddling" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #25789549 - 02/04/19 12:36 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

I honestly think koods knows he's wrong, though I doubt he will say as much. It's difficult to wade through all of the propaganda on a subject like this, and it's very easy to find yourself on the wrong side of an argument. I feel like the evidence of a US backed coup is quite compelling at this point. I'm still open to and evidence that suggests otherwise, but it would have to be quite persuasive.

Just don't tell me to butt out of the conversation, because it's not American politics. I remember when Spanishfly told me not to comment on Jeremy Corbyn, because I'm not British (even though he was Spanish). That shit lit me right up. Half the time people are bitching about Americans not knowing what's going on in foreign politics, and the other half of the time they are telling us to butt out. I try to make it a priority to understand what is going on elsewhere in the world, though it can sometimes be a daunting task, as each country has it's own propaganda machine, and I am not directly involved myself.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"Real change never happens from the top down, but from the bottom up. The American Revolution, Civil Rights movement, Women's Suffage, etc' - Bernie Sanders
Every one of you should see this video.
"Not to be a dick but we grow felonies and are adults here. And that's the real answer!" - Trusted Cultivator


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OfflineTipote
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Re: US supports Venezuelan coup attempt - "Totally not meddling" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25789791 - 02/04/19 07:15 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
You know wooof, maybe koods is right - maybe it's none of our business to discuss whether a guy can just appoint himself leader of Venezuela with US approval.  That's Trump's business along with a minority of Venezuelans.  The majority opinion doesn't matter in Venezuela because koods says democracy is so important.  :crazy2:

:lolwut:



but its our business to justify coups :lol:


--------------------
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OfflineTipote
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Re: US supports Venezuelan coup attempt - "Totally not meddling" [Re: Tipote] * 2
    #25789822 - 02/04/19 07:39 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

i think you really have to think of mainstream news as near enough to gospel truth to believe this BS. And have to have a serious memory problem to not remember all the shit over the past decades.

Twitter is having a purge of certain voices...

Interview with Ex-CIA Collaborator: “The CIA’s Plans in Venezuela Are Far Advanced”

long read but some interesting bits about coup structures.

Quote:

Q. And what phase do they enter when the plan fails?

They’re going to keep on doing it, they’ll go on perfecting it. We are the enemy. That is, Venezuela, Cuba, everything going on in Latin America as an alternative. We are the dissidents of the world. We live in a world dominated by capitalism. Where that new capitalist way of being dominates, so that now one can’t even call it imperialist, it’s something new, something that goes way beyond what students of Marxism wrote in history years ago. It’s something new, novel. It’s a power, practically global, of the big transnationals, of those megalopolies they’ve created. Therefore, we are the enemy. We are presenting an alternative project. The solution that the world proposes to us, is not that. We know how to do it, and Cuba, Venezuela, the ALBA countries, have demonstrated that it can be done, that one or two days more are nothing. The Cuban revolution has been in existence for 55 years, and with political will, it has achieved things that the US government, with all the money in the world, has been unable to do. So that’s a bad example.




--------------------
War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength


Edited by Tipote (02/04/19 07:45 AM)


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Offlinekoods
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Re: US supports Venezuelan coup attempt - "Totally not meddling" [Re: Tipote]
    #25790231 - 02/04/19 11:05 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

i honestly think koods knows he's wrong,




That’s funny because I know you are wrong.


--------------------
I am a violent pusher of the neo-marxist SJW agenda to destroy society.


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Re: US supports Venezuelan coup attempt - "Totally not meddling" [Re: Tipote]
    #25790243 - 02/04/19 11:10 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Tipote said:
i think you really have to think of mainstream news as near enough to gospel truth to believe this BS. And have to have a serious memory problem to not remember all the shit over the past decades.

Twitter is having a purge of certain voices...

Interview with Ex-CIA Collaborator: “The CIA’s Plans in Venezuela Are Far Advanced”

long read but some interesting bits about coup structures.

Quote:

Q. And what phase do they enter when the plan fails?

They’re going to keep on doing it, they’ll go on perfecting it. We are the enemy. That is, Venezuela, Cuba, everything going on in Latin America as an alternative. We are the dissidents of the world. We live in a world dominated by capitalism. Where that new capitalist way of being dominates, so that now one can’t even call it imperialist, it’s something new, something that goes way beyond what students of Marxism wrote in history years ago. It’s something new, novel. It’s a power, practically global, of the big transnationals, of those megalopolies they’ve created. Therefore, we are the enemy. We are presenting an alternative project. The solution that the world proposes to us, is not that. We know how to do it, and Cuba, Venezuela, the ALBA countries, have demonstrated that it can be done, that one or two days more are nothing. The Cuban revolution has been in existence for 55 years, and with political will, it has achieved things that the US government, with all the money in the world, has been unable to do. So that’s a bad example.







That’s such obvious socialist propaganda. Man I just don’t get how people fall for this stuff.

Quote:

We are presenting an alternative project. The solution that the world proposes to us, is not that. We know how to do it, and Cuba, Venezuela,



We know how to do what? Destroy an economy and starve the population. Venezuela is a disaster. What a bunch of garbage? Take the blinders off dude.


--------------------
I am a violent pusher of the neo-marxist SJW agenda to destroy society.


Edited by koods (02/04/19 11:20 AM)


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Re: US supports Venezuelan coup attempt - "Totally not meddling" [Re: koods] * 3
    #25790260 - 02/04/19 11:19 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Oh come on, koods. The hand writing is on the wall. The U.S. isn't acting altruistically. At the very least, there exist clear motivations for the U.S. to destabilize Venezuela. Even if it's just short term fuel price gains. So this idea that we are going there to save the people, to preserve democracy, whatever it may be is all pretty obviously just a front. Even if the U.S. isn't directly installed in the government it can certainly use methods to control it. It might not be outright imperialism, but it sure as hell is covert imperialism.


--------------------
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I’m sorry it had to be me.


Edited by christopera (02/04/19 11:24 AM)


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