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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Humans of the left and right. [Re: Tantrika]
    #25998347 - 05/17/19 04:55 PM (4 years, 10 months ago)

feminists vs feminists in Québec

Quote:

Religious symbols ban pits Quebec feminists against each other

On the final day of legislative hearings into a bill that will dictate who can wear religious symbols in Quebec, a young black woman wearing a hijab had a blunt message for the provincial government.

"I have the intention of breaking this glass ceiling you are in the process of creating and which will narrow my options and stigmatize me," said Idil Issa.

"If it takes me five, 10, 15 or 20 years, I will break this glass ceiling, and any other glass ceiling that will prevent me from reaching my potential."

Issa testified at the National Assembly Thursday, alongside Gabrielle Bouchard, the president of a prominent Quebec women's rights organization, the Fédération des femmes du Québec.

Together they argued the proposed legislation — which will bar some civil servants, including public school teachers, government lawyers and police officers from wearing religious symbols at work — violates basic feminist principles.

"This bill is fundamentally sexist," Bouchard said in her opening remarks. She said Muslim women will feel its effects most deeply.

"For us, the principle of 'our bodies, our choices' is a fundamental to keep in mind. This bill is a direct attack on women's choice and on our bodies."

Their joint presentation to lawmakers wrapped two weeks of hearings into Bill 21. Earlier in the proceedings, several women testified in support of the legislation, invoking similar feminist principles.

Indeed, the hearings have done much to highlight differences among Quebec feminists — not just over what the bill means for women's rights, but what it means to be a feminist in the first place.
2nd wave feminism vs. intersectionality

For some feminists, Bill 21 represents a continuation of the battle for gender equality that marked the political struggles of the 1960s and 70s.

It was only in 1964 that Quebec passed a law giving married women the same legal rights as their husbands.

"Not [much] more than 50 years ago, women weren't recognized as individuals in law. And full equality still hasn't been achieved," said Christiane Pelchat, the former head of a women's rights advisory body, the Conseil du statut de la femme.

When accommodations are granted to religious minorities, Pelchat said in testimony last week, it usually comes at the expense of gender equality. She believes the bill will ensure gender rights don't take a back seat to religious freedom.

Other feminists, though, consider the bill in line with the current retrenchment of women's rights in many conservative regimes around the world.

Bouchard, for instance, compared Bill 21 with Alabama's decision earlier this week to outlaw abortion, even in cases of rape and incest.

The differences align with universalist and relativist approaches to feminism, said Julie Latour, who testified in support of the bill for a group of lawyers who want to see secularism enshrined in law.

Latour places herself in the first camp.

"A women's fundamental right to equality is a universal aspiration," she said in a recent interview.

But she believes that project has been derailed somewhat by the rise of intersectional approaches to feminism:

"To me, that is not feminism."

The intersectional approach holds that race, sexuality, gender identity and socioeconomic background, among other factors, need to be considered in order to account for why women may experience oppression differently.

It is at the core the position taken by the Fédération des femmes du Québec, which maintains the effects of the secularism law won't be felt evenly.

"This bill particularly targets Muslim women," said Bouchard. "They live the consequences of this conversation."

Issa provided her own definition of intersectional feminism when she opened her remarks by declaring: "I am a woman; I am black, and I am a Muslim. Because of who I am, I am subject to many barriers."



Quote:

Who's the real feminist?

The hostility between the two camps became evident during the hearings. The universalists had a difficult time believing a woman would voluntarily wear a religious symbol, such as a hijab.

"To put 'hijab' and 'feminist' in the same sentence is paradoxical," said Leila Bensalem, a high school teacher who testified on behalf of a pro-Bill 21 group called Pour les droits des femmes (For the rights of women).

"It's as if the [Quebec Women's Federation] is fighting for oppression in the name of freedom."

At another point in the hearings, Liberal MNA Paule Robitaille confronted an ardent feminist supporter of the bill.

"There are lots of young women and older women who wear the hijab by choice," Robitaille said. "Isn't it a little doctrinaire, even reactionary, to tell women how to dress? Isn't it a little anti-feminist, because it marginalizes them?"

The Coalition Avenir Québec government, for its part, has said repeatedly the bill won't affect one minority or gender more than another.

But on Wednesday, Immigration Minister Simon Jolin-Barrette refused a request made by the Liberals, Québec Solidaire and the City of Montreal to study whether the law he's proposing will have a differential impact on women.

The government is intent on passing the bill into law by mid-June.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/bill-21-quebec-feminists-on-opposite-sides-of-religious-symbols-ban-1.5139422

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InvisibleTantrika
Miss Ann Thrope
Female


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Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
Re: Humans of the left and right. [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26152673 - 08/25/19 04:43 PM (4 years, 6 months ago)

ContraPoints on disposability of men, men being in danger in the shifting political landscape,
and the need for the Left to develop a legitimate Men's Rights Movement


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Humans of the left and right. [Re: Tantrika] * 1
    #26152729 - 08/25/19 05:52 PM (4 years, 6 months ago)

I tried to concentrate but that  ambient jibberish background music made it impossible.  Is that a man;man? You gotta be nice to a tranny.... it is expensive!


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

Edited by SirTripAlot (08/25/19 05:52 PM)

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InvisibleTantrika
Miss Ann Thrope
Female


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Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
Re: Humans of the left and right. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26152778 - 08/25/19 06:31 PM (4 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
I tried to concentrate but that  ambient jibberish background music made it impossible. ...




How unfortunate, it was not really much new for this forum tho
- men are treated as disposable in society, while women are to be protected; this puts unfair pressures on men
- in a culture of perpetual victimhood men are on-track to being treated as America's next top victim
- If the Left doesn't take mens rights seriously, that risks leaving only the radical left to pick them up with Marxist theory or the moderate left to placate them with Feminist theory, there is a failure to recognize and encourage positive masculinity
- it is on the men of the left to start taking their issues seriously and make a space for them to express that positive masculinity, us women can't do it for them

had it playing in a back tab at 2x speed while surfing the Dark Souls wiki planning out a build for my new playthrough, :lol:
so may have missed nuances and the actual authors being cited

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Offlineqman
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Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 1 hour, 50 minutes
Re: Humans of the left and right. [Re: Tantrika]
    #26152784 - 08/25/19 06:35 PM (4 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Tantrika said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
I tried to concentrate but that  ambient jibberish background music made it impossible. ...




How unfortunate, it was not really much new for this forum tho
- men are treated as disposable in society, while women are to be protected; this puts unfair pressures on men
- in a culture of perpetual victimhood men are on-track to being treated as America's next top victim
- If the Left doesn't take mens rights seriously, that risks leaving only the radical left to pick them up with Marxist theory or the moderate left to placate them with Feminist theory, there is a failure to recognize and encourage positive masculinity
- it is on the men of the left to start taking their issues seriously and make a space for them to express that positive masculinity, us women can't do it for them

had it playing in a back tab at 2x speed while surfing the Dark Souls wiki planning out a build for my new playthrough, :lol:
so may have missed nuances and the actual authors being cited




But aren't many of the current male issues the result of the left creating anti-men laws, policies and sentiment?

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Offlinekoods
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Re: Humans of the left and right. [Re: qman] * 2
    #26152793 - 08/25/19 06:42 PM (4 years, 6 months ago)

Anti-men laws?


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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InvisibleTantrika
Miss Ann Thrope
Female


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
Re: Humans of the left and right. [Re: qman] * 2
    #26152840 - 08/25/19 07:21 PM (4 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Tantrika said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
I tried to concentrate but that  ambient jibberish background music made it impossible. ...




How unfortunate, it was not really much new for this forum tho
- men are treated as disposable in society, while women are to be protected; this puts unfair pressures on men
- in a culture of perpetual victimhood men are on-track to being treated as America's next top victim
- If the Left doesn't take mens rights seriously, that risks leaving only the radical left to pick them up with Marxist theory or the moderate left to placate them with Feminist theory, there is a failure to recognize and encourage positive masculinity
- it is on the men of the left to start taking their issues seriously and make a space for them to express that positive masculinity, us women can't do it for them

had it playing in a back tab at 2x speed while surfing the Dark Souls wiki planning out a build for my new playthrough, :lol:
so may have missed nuances and the actual authors being cited




But aren't many of the current male issues the result of the left creating anti-men laws, policies and sentiment?




Do you have a clearer example of what issues you are referencing?

to me, having seen numerous complaints on these forums about how difficult it is for fathers to see their children or gain child custody
would argue that to be one of the largest and most pertinent male issues to be adressed
and that issue stems from a worldview that women are not good for anything but staying home and raising children
which simultaneously results in men being at a systemic disadvantage in pursuing custody

this is not the result of some new leftist approach seeking to rob men of the right to be the primary caregiver for their child tho
it is a continuation of an existing system that tries to keep men tied to the grindstone and women out of the socioeconomic sphere

nothing new there :shrug:

Edited by Tantrika (08/25/19 07:27 PM)

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,633
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Re: Humans of the left and right. [Re: koods] * 2
    #26152857 - 08/25/19 07:39 PM (4 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Anti-men laws?




Snowflakes in all shapes and sizes.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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InvisibleTantrika
Miss Ann Thrope
Female


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
Re: Humans of the left and right. [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26434579 - 01/15/20 09:34 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Indigenous people should have more influence when it comes to helping newcomers learn about Canadian culture, says a report released Wednesday morning that examines relationship-building between immigrants and Indigenous communities in Winnipeg.

Fostering Safe Spaces for Dialogue and Relationship-Building Between Newcomers and Indigenous Peoples, created by the Immigration Partnership Winnipeg with the Winnipeg Foundation, tries to find solutions to rising tensions between the communities, said Jenna Wirch, a research assistant for the report.

"The presence of racist attitudes and apathy on both sides are due to a lack of knowledge and understanding about each other," the report says.


Although there has been progress in Indigenous relations, xenophobia, racism, negative perceptions and misinformation are still strong between the communities, the report says.

The report suggests ways to eliminate negative impressions that would also help build relationships between the two communities, including showing immigrants where and how Indigenous Peoples occupy land, oral storytelling of each other's histories and meeting Indigenous role models in the community.

But the main recommendation is to provide an orientation tool kit that contains information about Indigenous history and culture, and treaties, while facilitating discussions about stereotypes, telling positive stories about Indigenous communities and listing relevant resources for newcomers.

"A newcomer person or family, once they arrive here, instead of seeing negative images or hearing bad stories about Indigenous people, they would be given a full orientation on the concept of land and treaties," said Haniataan Al-Ubeady, a lead co-ordinator of the report.

"They would be educated about that. They would see the bright side of the Indigenous traditions and cultures. They will be exposed to the Indigenous traditions and cultures and people, through the appropriate resources of information," Al-Ubeady said.

The tool kit should become a "living document" that gets updated and explains how historical events have led to contemporary issues in a way that's easy to understand, the report says.

"We hope [this report] will equip newcomers to play an important role in shaping and contributing to the future of Canada; a future that embodies social and environmental justice, healing, and reconciliation," the document says.



Quote:

The tool kit should be given to immigrants (including international students), says the report, referring to it as "territorientation."

"Instead of getting an orientation in the old-school ways, they get a welcoming from our Indigenous communities," Wirch said, and that orientation would start before immigrants arrive in Canada.

Newcomers would learn about the treaty territory they are moving to and what nation comes from that area, she said.

A significant part of the orientation involves delving into the history of Indigenous peoples in Canada, pre- and post-colonization, as well as the impact colonization has had and how it pertains to current issues.

The tool kit should contain terms about Indigenous cultures, information about Indigenous life before settlers arrived, such as how different nations organized themselves, and their beliefs and values, the report says.

It also should detail the violence and strategy involved in colonization, including information about the systematic removal of Indigenous Peoples, residential schools, the Sixties Scoop, the history of treaty making and the Indian Act.

Contemporary issues also should be covered, the report says, with information about child welfare systems, missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls and challenges faced by people living on reserves.

Aside from history, the report recommends setting up safe spaces to openly discuss common stereotypes about both immigrant and Indigenous communities, which should be followed by telling stories of both communities working together.

The tool kit should also have a list of resources that people in both communities can consult, featuring community leaders, key institutions, organizations or community groups, and informational resources, the report says.

The next step to help build mutual understanding and knowledge between communities will be developing an orientation package that will help Indigenous people learn more about immigrants, Al-Ubeady said.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/report-tensions-immigrant-indigenous-winnipeg-1.5427337

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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Humans of the left and right. [Re: Tantrika]
    #26434752 - 01/15/20 11:48 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I don't know much about situation for Indigenous People in Canada compared to Northern Wisconsin, but in Wisconsin they have been given many legal rights of independence (and casinos) but they still remain very much sperate from white society (there are very few non whites in Northern Wisconsin except native Americans).


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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InvisibleTantrika
Miss Ann Thrope
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Posts: 17,138
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Re: Humans of the left and right. [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26434764 - 01/15/20 11:57 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

There are still a number of issues and arguments from a human rights angle

just seem to recall a couple years ago responding to a point koods made about First Nations support of "white power" talking points
with an indication of concerns over actual perceptions within the Native community informing opinions of immigrants

so it was just kind of a neat thing to highlight

was not aware of discriminatory perceptions of First Nations people on the part of immigrants
but it does not entirely surprise me -- get an immigrant who works hard and integrates into a company
have them get compliments from their white coworkers about being a hard worker
also overhear those same coworkers complaining about Natives not working and just collecting taxes and being spoiled
and then, without having actually interacted with the community, a perception is formed and reinforced due to a perceived contrast against themself

:shrug:

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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Humans of the left and right. [Re: Tantrika] * 3
    #26434792 - 01/15/20 12:14 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Pitting the low level workers against each other has always been an effective tactic, and when there are obvious markers like ethnicity and immigration status, the bosses hardly even have to work at it.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Humans of the left and right. [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26437754 - 01/17/20 01:42 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I'm in the process of catching up on this epic, epic thread. For now, thought:

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
It is demonstrably true these groups of individuals engage in lying to push their narrative and opinions on others. Like the extreme version of religion these groups of people shove their way of thinking down others people's throats. Like grown up children these groups are the number one factor in the dragging down of society.

Both the humans of the left and humans of the right thread clearly show that these groups will stop at nothing to lie and cheat their way to the top. The MO is lack of critical thinking and extreme amount of bias and emotionally based attacks on each other.

The humans of the left and right are clearly the deplorable sector of Americans. Those that identify with a left or right conviction to politics are often the worst examples of society.

Neither group is superior and both cannot seen the forest for the trees. To people above them both their bickering between each other looks extremely juvenile. To those trapped within one of these two paradigms of thought they feel convicted to push their narrative because of their false sense of moral superiority.

Both groups actively engage in dehumanizing each other and push a divide and conquer mentality. The polarization between these groups is a supreme example of not being able to act like adults.

Please post examples of extreme hypocrisy, outright lying, slander, etc....




:justastonishing: :kenthumbup:

Spot on, bod!


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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