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DrMushroom
Human Farmer


Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 722
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 1 month, 10 days
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Can you wake endospores to kill them after simmering grain instead of before?
#25762202 - 01/23/19 01:23 AM (5 years, 25 days ago) |
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I just got to thinking, is there any reason why (for whatever endospore sp a pre-soak is even effective against) waking endospores needs to be done before a simmer instead of after?
So, basically doing away with the pre-soak then just letting the filled grain jars or bags sit for a day before pressure cooking, would this acheive the same result? Again, on whatever endospores, or grains with endospores killing or reducing endospore count using a pre-soak is possible with.
Im not too up to date with the current concensus on endospores besides that resistance and quanitity vary between grains and that acheiving true sterilization is quite difficult, but also not entirely neccessary either, as far as totally inactivating 100% of dormant endospores goes.
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topohunt
noob

Registered: 10/27/17
Posts: 69
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 2 months, 30 days
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Re: Can you wake endospores to kill them after simmering grain instead of before? [Re: DrMushroom]
#25762237 - 01/23/19 01:55 AM (5 years, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
blackout said:
Quote:
B. Drawbacks
Tyndallization is not 100% dependable.
Indeed, especially if you do what John Tyndall specifically warned against. That is just one of many texts I have seen giving incorrect advise, not just some minor semantics, they are instructing you to do exactly what he warned against, most annoying that the ignorant fuckers put his name to it.
I will usually boil grains a little and let them sit to soak up water. The advise about soaking is not just about germinating endospores. The even soaking allows less chance of burst grains, due to over soaked grains at the bottom of jars and drier ones on top. It is also to allow better heat transfer, just like people soak chickpeas or indeed wheat or rye before pressure cooking to eat themselves.
If doing intermittent heat treatments I usually do more than 3 heat cycles.
If the newly developed endospores are weaker then the supposedly better heat transfer properties might offset the negatives. i.e. if you had a soaked and unsoaked jar, and pressure cooked for a short time, say 30mins then the soaked may fare better, even if it technically had a higher endospore count.
Quote:
SpitballJedi said: I see this repeated a lot on sites talking about sugar as a preservative:
"High concentrations of sugar also exert osmotic pressure that will draw water out of bacteria, preventing them from growing."
My very uneducated understanding:
Not all species of bacteria produce endospores. Different species produce and germinate endospores at different rates and under different conditions.
The stink of grain soak water is from a combination of endospore producing and non-producing species of bacteria. (other stuff causes stink too, but we're talking endospores here)
Without a link to back my claim, I'll still go out on a limb and say that some endospores will germinate and produce more spores and endospores while others will not. But, I don't think it matters if more endospores are being produced because they are hydrated and are easy to kill in the PC. My understanding, from The Shroomery, is the dry endospores are the ones that are hard to destroy in the PC.
At some point, the exponential growth of the different species reproducing together in the same pot, would trigger a endospore producing response to the sudden decline in food and increase in competition. I think it's more at the end of the soak cycle is when the vast majority of endospores would produce, but they are soft because they are in water. And, the water still stinks because of the number of non-endospore producing bacteria still expanding.
This is what I could find. Sounded like soaking isn't absolutely necessary but has some benefits.
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scarabaeus
Stranger

Registered: 06/13/18
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Re: Can you wake endospores to kill them after simmering grain instead of before? [Re: topohunt]
#25762299 - 01/23/19 03:01 AM (5 years, 25 days ago) |
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The endospore topic is controversial. IMO soaking may 'awaken' the endospores, but it also allows ALL bacteria to proliferate. The more enemies you must kill, the harder it is to kill 'em all. We want to kill 'em all (at least in theory). Personally, I never had success with soaking the grains overnight -it just seemed to make things worse, but that's just me.
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Solipsis
m̶a̶d̶ disappointed scientist



Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 3,398
Loc: the Neitherlands
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Re: Can you wake endospores to kill them after simmering grain instead of before? [Re: scarabaeus]
#25762473 - 01/23/19 06:14 AM (5 years, 25 days ago) |
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AFAIK it is important to rinse grains before you soak them, otherwise you may get a lot more yeast and bacteria multiplying. I'd also not do it too warm. If you can put it in a cold place or at least for most of the soaking time, that could be a way of limiting the proliferation although i haven't tried this idea myself yet.
I agree that it is risky in the sense that if you don't do the above things right, it could backfire.
I use millet and it can be kinda dry sometimes, do you have to soak or what.. you add a measured amount of water and just PC right away? Is there like a table of data for different types of grain spawn and how much water to add?
Another concept is tyndillization which does involve heating twice to get germinated endospores especially on the second time. I've done that but it's significantly more work/time.
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scarabaeus
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Re: Can you wake endospores to kill them after simmering grain instead of before? [Re: Solipsis]
#25762499 - 01/23/19 06:36 AM (5 years, 25 days ago) |
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I wouldn't worry about yeast or other fungi, they are easily killed at relatively low temps. But rinsing the grain would debride the kernals (of millet, wheat, rye etc.) of extraneous bacteria -always a good thing. Mushroom farms always search out and use proven grain that has a low bacterial population. The smaller the bacterial population before the sterilization cycle, the greater the chances of reaching the(hypothetical) 100% sterile goal.
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DrMushroom
Human Farmer


Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 722
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 1 month, 10 days
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Re: Can you wake endospores to kill them after simmering grain instead of before? [Re: scarabaeus]
#25764106 - 01/23/19 07:56 PM (5 years, 25 days ago) |
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I see. So the question is essentially moot.
Still, let's say this is for the purpose of appeasing someone who refuses to accept that germinating endospores is detrimental, would it matter if angerminatiin period was after simmering instead of before? Given thought now this would be relevant for wether or not grains can sit a while between full hydration and PCing. If letting them sir for an extended period of time actually hurts things. I know once or twice I've encountered people who wanted to freeze hydrated grains, if 12 hours soaking is enough to hurt I would imagine that slowly thawing the grains before PCing might also be as bad under otherwise similar conditions. There might be other scenarios this applies too, really I'm just curious at this point.
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scarabaeus
Stranger

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Re: Can you wake endospores to kill them after simmering grain instead of before? [Re: DrMushroom]
#25764136 - 01/23/19 08:15 PM (5 years, 25 days ago) |
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Freezing grain that is hydrated, would only cause said grain to turn to mush. As weird as it may sound, when water freezes it expands, breaking down cell walls of organic materials, in this case grain.
Prep grain, pc grain, inoc grain is what I do. I never let stuff sit around more than it needs to.
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DrMushroom
Human Farmer


Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 722
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 1 month, 10 days
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Re: Can you wake endospores to kill them after simmering grain instead of before? [Re: scarabaeus]
#25764587 - 01/24/19 01:53 AM (5 years, 24 days ago) |
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ha, i forgot about that, yes, freezing would certainly damage the integrity of the grains.
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