PrimalSoup said:

kabel said:

How do you define enlightenment?...

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I don't. 

It seems to me there's a natural impulse when you're searching to think you can follow some sort of road map to whatever it is you imagine that might be, but IME it doesn't work like that.  Definitions and the like are of course never the thing itself, but worse they get right in the way of progress.

I spent a long time beating my head against this stuff to no avail, but it wasn't until I gave that up that anything useful happened.  But I can't define it in any way that would make sense from where I started from. You can't really put it into words, and of course THAT'S been said many times.

IME experiential feedback from nature and reality is useful for guiding one's journey - just surf the rising edge and observe what happens.

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PrimalSoup said:

I don't really care.  Besides that was what Bod said, I have a different opinion about it. 

Looks like you came in kind of late as I've already posted all that before about "there" in this very thread just go back and look.

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bodhisatta said:

kabel said:

I meditate and it's not a substitute for DMT. If we want get scientific about it, in the Griffiths' recent psilocybin + spiritualism study, the effects were additive, but the drugs were doing the lions share of the work.

You quit Zen but you still do shrooms and DMT, that's telling in itself

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Im not seeking some spiritual enlightenment and im not confusing psychedelics with a eazy zen replacement either. I just don't go because I'm lazy and already happy

There's nothing special or awakening about DMT other than its a fun time and interesting to see how neuromodulatory molecules effect perception. Especially for me coming from a neurology background.

If you see elves or whatever else bullshit on dmt that's nothing but your preconceptions coming to life as your brain makes sense of the experience. There's no aliens or elves trying to say anything.

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bodhisatta said:

There's nothing special or awakening about DMT other than its a fun time and interesting to see how neuromodulatory molecules effect perception. Especially for me coming from a neurology background.

If you see elves or whatever else bullshit on dmt that's nothing but your preconceptions coming to life as your brain makes sense of the experience. There's no aliens or elves trying to say anything.

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MrCraggles said:

Also if I were to experience ego death, I wouldn't think I was enlightened. I don't think there's any such thing as enlightenment. It's presumptuous and it itself is egotistical if you think you've found access to some divine knowledge.

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MrCraggles said:

Psychedelics make me so damn happy though. Not just during the experience but afterwards too. They really truly sort my head out and make me more conscious of the things that should matter. They encourage me to pursue healthy means by which I can be happy.

After friends and family psychedelics are the best thing that ever happened to me.

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Good stuff.

MrCraggles said:

Well I ate 7 grams penis envy and whilst I was tripping extremely heavily and felt infinity and deep life affirmation, and was laughing so hard my stomach muscles hurt later that day...no ego death! I was tripping very heavily though. It was just absolute pure joy. The trip reminded me how much I love life.

Beautiful trip though. Been using LSD more lately and it reminded me how much I actually prefer mushrooms. Totally beautiful.

I've decided to stop chasing ego death. If it happens it happens.

Although I'm going to eat 8 grams next time as I wanted to be deeper down the rabbit hole.

Thanks for all the advice and help guys!

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Northerner said:

I always find ego loss and OBE's quite unnerving. The moment just before it happens where I inevitably think "Fuck, I've done it this time. I've killed myself." and then trying to accept that. Then being shredded until I give in. Sometimes that is followed by difficult visions of my body and stuff. Then I hit the void and all the fear and difficulty stops. White light, space, sacred geometry... just a point of perception floating through that sort of things, sometimes blackouts or whiteouts. Then the freaky bit when the sense of my body starts coming back. I normally sense my lungs first, then it all comes tumbling back... open my eyes. Hands, arms, my place on the planet, my name, fingers, wow... look at these things. Flex them and be amazed at the control I have over them. Not long after the gratitude comes. So thankful to be alive.

It's kinda unnerving. Interesting, but not something I try to do. It's only when I push it just that teensy bit too far and there's no escape.

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That cuts through.

Call it what you will.

MrCraggles said:

Well I ate 7 grams penis envy and whilst I was tripping extremely heavily and felt infinity and deep life affirmation, and was laughing so hard my stomach muscles hurt later that day...no ego death! I was tripping very heavily though. It was just absolute pure joy. The trip reminded me how much I love life.

Beautiful trip though. Been using LSD more lately and it reminded me how much I actually prefer mushrooms. Totally beautiful.

I've decided to stop chasing ego death. If it happens it happens.

Although I'm going to eat 8 grams next time as I wanted to be deeper down the rabbit hole.

Thanks for all the advice and help guys!

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MrCraggles said:

I absolutely 100% agree with this!!! This is exactly what I keep trying to tell my friend that thinks the mushrooms are psychically communicating with him.

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Quote:

One of my only issues with psychedelic use is the degree to which they appear to encourage magical thinking in people that are unable to critically analyse the experience rationally.

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Quote:

They really truly sort my head out and make me more conscious of the things that should matter. They encourage me to pursue healthy means by which I can be happy.

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kabel said:

PrimalSoup said:

I don't really care.  Besides that was what Bod said, I have a different opinion about it. 

Looks like you came in kind of late as I've already posted all that before about "there" in this very thread just go back and look.

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It was late, apparently,  in the discussion where you said, "nobody stumbles into enlightenment.  They have to work long and hard at it."

Like I said, I disagree, but it's cool, we've probably taken this one as far as it's going to go.

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You disagree how?  Some people do get it without much work but that's rare enough that it shouldn't be expected.  Nor should anybody expect to trip and end up enlightened permanently.  But they can experience it temporarily and if they're lucky that can motivate them to pursue it further.

There's no end to the process, no place you stop and go "yeah this is it".   If there was, then fuck it, you could just buy and sell it.

I'm not trying to be intentionally rude but I won't take the time to go through line-by-line responses to a long post. Just like ya want a definition of "enlightenment"?  It's already very well defined in Buddhist literature, and it takes a huge amount of context to make it clear.  Nobody's casual misunderstanding is going to take the place of that sort of tradition, and I wouldn't even try to explain it at that level.  Descending into semantics is almost always a dead end online.

PrimalSoup said:

You disagree how?  Some people do get it without much work but that's rare enough that it shouldn't be expected.  Nor should anybody expect to trip and end up enlightened permanently.  But they can experience it temporarily and if they're lucky that can motivate them to pursue it further.

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Quote:

There's no end to the process, no place you stop and go "yeah this is it".   If there was, then fuck it, you could just buy and sell it.

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Quote:

I'm not trying to be intentionally rude but I won't take the time to go through line-by-line responses to a long post. Just like ya want a definition of "enlightenment"?  It's already very well defined in Buddhist literature, and it takes a huge amount of context to make it clear.

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Quote:

Psilocybin-occasioned mystical-type experience in combination with meditation and other spiritual practices produces enduring positive changes in psychological functioning and in trait measures of prosocial attitudes and behaviors.

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I've known this for a long time.  It's what I've been talking about in this thread. 

I'm not going to get into a discussion about definitions of enlightenment.  If you haven't experienced it it's useless to try to define it, if you have experienced it it's so obvious you can no longer even talk about it.  It's just the nature of that beast. It's good enough if you're referring to that thing that can't be talked about directly, but words will never get you there.

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How I said before. Not that most people, in general, become "woke" because they probably don't. But most people, or a good lot of them, who history regards as enlightened, or at least had an episode of cosmic consciousness, satori, or whatever you want to call it, didn't work for it. It happened spontaneously with some frequency, with there being examples of people who literally fell into it.

Regarding hard work, meditation and koans, it's rare enough that it shouldn't be expected with any of that either, and even when a zen master gives you your badge, I have my doubts that many, if any end up permanently enlightened. In fact I'm skeptical most "awakened" zen guys ever had satori anywhere close to what 5 dried grams can deliver.

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kabel said:

MrCraggles said:

I absolutely 100% agree with this!!! This is exactly what I keep trying to tell my friend that thinks the mushrooms are psychically communicating with him.

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Right.

Quote:

One of my only issues with psychedelic use is the degree to which they appear to encourage magical thinking in people that are unable to critically analyse the experience rationally.

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Totally!

Quote:

They really truly sort my head out and make me more conscious of the things that should matter. They encourage me to pursue healthy means by which I can be happy.

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Wait, wait, who's "they?"

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MrCraggles said:

kabel said:

MrCraggles said:

I absolutely 100% agree with this!!! This is exactly what I keep trying to tell my friend that thinks the mushrooms are psychically communicating with him.

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Right.

Quote:

One of my only issues with psychedelic use is the degree to which they appear to encourage magical thinking in people that are unable to critically analyse the experience rationally.

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Totally!

Quote:

They really truly sort my head out and make me more conscious of the things that should matter. They encourage me to pursue healthy means by which I can be happy.

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Wait, wait, who's "they?"

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They = the mushrooms of course! It isn't a 'who' it's a 'what'.

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PrimalSoup said:

I've known this for a long time.  It's what I've been talking about in this thread.

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Quote:

I'm not going to get into a discussion about definitions of enlightenment.  If you haven't experienced it it's useless to try to define it, if you have experienced it it's so obvious you can no longer even talk about it.

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Quote:

You have any personal experience with any of this?  Or is it just based on reading? 

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MrCraggles said:

They = the mushrooms of course! It isn't a 'who' it's a 'what'.

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kabel said:

PrimalSoup said:

I've known this for a long time.  It's what I've been talking about in this thread.

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I think you have been fairly contradictory in this thread. Do you think psychedelics frequently deliver an awakening or not?

Quote:

I'm not going to get into a discussion about definitions of enlightenment.  If you haven't experienced it it's useless to try to define it, if you have experienced it it's so obvious you can no longer even talk about it.

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Have you experienced it with psychedelics? If so, how frequently, say per trip?
Have you experienced it thru meditation? If so, how frequently, say per session?

Quote:

You have any personal experience with any of this?  Or is it just based on reading? 

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Strongly and regularly with psychedelics. Once, though much milder in a yoga class. Once, though much milder when fasting. Once though much milder viewing a cloud.

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You won't succeed in luring me into a semantic argument.

Psychedelics can show people alternate forms of consciousness.  Some of those forms don't suffer from limited ego-mind. As a trip artifact these forms aren't stable outside the trip itself, and without ample preparation (e.g. meditative practice of some sort) there is no long term awakening.  As I said the experience itself can plant the seed to attain awakening, but that takes work, both outside and inside the trip.

People very easily confuse a temporary reduction in limited mind with full blown awakening, but in the latter there isn't any remnant of the original limited mind.  This of course is well documented in Buddhist literature since it's basically the core of awakening.  And you might want to note the Buddha himself didn't just sit down and get up 5 minutes later, fully enlightened. 

So the short answer to your question is no (as I've said consistently all along), psychedelics don't convey permanent awakening, and anything else is like just eating the wrapper on the bar of chocolate. That it even needs discussion is evidence that they don't, because if they did, there'd be nothing at all to discuss. You'd just point at it and get on with things.

This of course is why there's such a strong prohibition against drugs in Buddhist tradition, although I find mushrooms to be an exception and not harmful to my practice, but that's a tricky thing to do, as delusion is easy to fall into.

But still, when you really get it you know completely - there's no doubt left.  It's not a tentative sort of thing, or a "mild" thing at all, and it's not a thing you experience "occasionally" or "per trip", or something you can rank. It's just there, all the time, and it's stable.  It doesn't go away.

Thanks for answering my question though, sorry for the too long response.

PrimalSoup said:

You won't succeed in luring me into a semantic argument.

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Quote:

Psychedelics can show people alternate forms of consciousness.  Some of those forms don't suffer from limited ego-mind.

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Quote:

As a trip artifact these forms aren't stable outside the trip itself, and without ample preparation (e.g. meditative practice of some sort) there is no long term awakening.  As I said the experience itself can plant the seed to attain awakening, but that takes work, both outside and inside the trip.

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Quote:

People very easily confuse a temporary reduction in limited mind with full blown awakening, but in the latter there isn't any remnant of the original limited mind.

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Quote:

This of course is well documented in Buddhist literature...

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Quote:

And you might want to note the Buddha himself didn't just sit down and get up 5 minutes later, fully enlightened.

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Quote:

So the short answer to your question is no (as I've said consistently all along), psychedelics don't convey permanent awakening, and anything else is like just eating the wrapper on the bar of chocolate.

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Quote:

But still, when you really get it you know completely - there's no doubt left.  It's not a tentative sort of thing, or a "mild" thing at all, and it's not a thing you experience "occasionally" or "per trip", or something you can rank. It's just there, all the time, and it's stable.  It doesn't go away.

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