|
thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,658
Last seen: 9 days, 11 hours
|
simplicity is often the least recognizable just by its ability to mix in so thoroughly 1
#25743277 - 01/14/19 09:31 AM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
funny how things change but a subtle pattern remains even if that pattern is just the change itself.
complexity in patterns reveals a forethought which is easily recognized.
like you, changing your pattern to become unrecognizable.
prior to language there was no need to hide nakedness.
it was accepted as a norm.
language introduced deceit as a unintended byproduct to communication.
the willfully hidden is an archetype all to itself.
it was a product of language.
and now, lying has lost all its implication in this world.
in the process of construction it is important to disassemble that which doesn't add to the long term functionality of the edifice.
this function is important to weed out imperfection and misconceptions.
always leave as many pieces intact as possible.
this allow those best equipped to reassemble to perform their functions as easily as possible.
thought has no means of being observed, science cannot place a X value to it.
it cannot be defined in empirical sense.
the thought process is pure, it is a viable way for the external to view the internal, two to view the one, without altering it.
observing with a thought process, is much like a computer simulation, no external imprint is applied.
external influence will alter the object being observed leaving a bias in the results
the external, the internal, via technology the two cannot be viewed as one.
what is the summation of what you know and what is the summation of what you don't know now?
what's left is for an intuitive understanding on how to proceed.
cubic is the abstraction, it is thought in a circular environment.
it is a method of logical measurement.
its energy is found in it applications not in its design.
its design is geometrical, it application fractal.
it is life that produces thought in the material not the other way round
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,759
|
Re: simplicity is often the least recognizable just by its ability to mix in so thoroughly [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#25743453 - 01/14/19 11:21 AM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
looks complicated - where is the simplicity?
--------------------
_ 🧠_
|
laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,829
|
Re: simplicity is often the least recognizable just by its ability to mix in so thoroughly [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#25743477 - 01/14/19 11:38 AM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
....Animals such as squirrels and chimps practice deceit . Probably others as well. and squirrels wouldn't seem to have language. So the way you begin sounds rather Biblical, like the tower of babble story, and making an issue of 'nakedness', sounds like the Adam & Eve story. ....And numerous tribes in Africa that Do have language don't seem to have the 'problem with nakedness' you refer to.
....After that the post seems to ramble into so many abstractions, as to become obscure and nebulous. Or maybe its just too deep for me. But based on the errors of the first part, it might need rethinking.
...Referring to animals again, the strategies used to blend in are anything but simple. Two quick examples are stick insects & cuttlefish. There are 100s or 1000s of more examples of very complex strategies that took eons to evolve .
|
thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,658
Last seen: 9 days, 11 hours
|
Re: simplicity is often the least recognizable just by its ability to mix in so thoroughly [Re: laughingdog]
#25743707 - 01/14/19 01:44 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
redgreenvines said: looks complicated - where is the simplicity?
you're right.
i prefer brevity.
i guess the post title said it all
simple patterns when thoroughly mixed, become hard to recognize, despite their simplicity.
language willfully hides the simple pattern.
/
how are the most simple patterns recognized?
Quote:
laughingdog said: ....Animals such as squirrels and chimps practice deceit . Probably others as well. and squirrels wouldn't seem to have language. So the way you begin sounds rather Biblical, like the tower of babble story, and making an issue of 'nakedness', sounds like the Adam & Eve story. ....And numerous tribes in Africa that Do have language don't seem to have the 'problem with nakedness' you refer to.
....After that the post seems to ramble into so many abstractions, as to become obscure and nebulous. Or maybe its just too deep for me. But based on the errors of the first part, it might need rethinking.
...Referring to animals again, the strategies used to blend in are anything but simple. Two quick examples are stick insects & cuttlefish. There are 100s or 1000s of more examples of very complex strategies that took eons to evolve .
maybe i should have used the word innocence instead of nakedness.
a newborn comes to this world with a clean slate on a foundation based upon two million years of survival instincts. instincts are a means for survival - at any cost.
are animals innocent, can they deceive?
from wikipedia:
Quote:
It has been argued that true deception assumes the deceiver knows that (1) other animals have minds, (2) different animals' minds can believe different things are true (when only one of these is actually true), and (3) it can make another mind believe that something false is actually true. True deception requires the deceiver to have the mental capacity to assess different representations of reality. Animal behaviour scientists are therefore wary of interpreting a single instance of behaviour to true deception, and explain it with simpler mental processes such as learned associations. In contrast, human activities such as military deception are certainly intentional, even when they involve methods such as camouflage which physically parallel camouflage methods used by animals.
do children have the ability to understand their own psyche?
innocence as far as it applies to children is a recognition that this ability to discern is not fully developed, hence any self centered behavior is provided a pass.
i put animals into the same category.
in the times we live in this innocence has become a liability.
i think i would have to live amongst the african tribe to know for sure,
and, i would ask, do you fear the lies being told about you?
|
laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,829
|
Re: simplicity is often the least recognizable just by its ability to mix in so thoroughly [Re: thealienthatategod]
#25743714 - 01/14/19 01:49 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
https://ssec.si.edu/stemvisions-blog/why-do-squirrels-bury-nuts-and-other-mysteries
"For one, scientists have observed gray squirrels frequently burying and reburying their nuts. The scientists posited that this behavior was to help always keep a fresh memory of the nut’s location. However, it’s not only memory that squirrels need to combat in order to find their nuts! The gray squirrel community is rampant with nut theft. Squirrels can lose as much as 25% of their cached nuts to such thieves! Luckily, squirrels have developed some clever tactics to protect their nuts. Scientists have observed squirrels creating false caches in order to trick thieves. If squirrels are suspicious of thieves, they will also start to hide their nuts in difficult to reach places (like under bushes or in muddy areas). "
see also https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/3322101/Cunning-squirrels-pretend-to-bury-their-food.html
Edited by laughingdog (01/14/19 02:03 PM)
|
laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,829
|
Re: simplicity is often the least recognizable just by its ability to mix in so thoroughly [Re: thealienthatategod]
#25743725 - 01/14/19 01:57 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
thealienthatategod said:
i would ask, do you fear the lies being told about you?
I don't know of anyone who perceives me as I perceive my self. Grown children perceive their parents as fuddyduddies Advertisers see me as a customer. A friend to whom you tell an unwelcome truth may see one as an enemy. And so on, I'm not unusual in this respect, most of us can think of a long list of such examples. To fear this fact of life seems an unecessary way to create more suffering/stress. But in my life there is no malicious gossip making the rounds.
|
laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,829
|
Re: simplicity is often the least recognizable just by its ability to mix in so thoroughly [Re: laughingdog]
#25743729 - 01/14/19 02:00 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
"simple patterns when thoroughly mixed, become hard to recognize, despite their simplicity."
this is what cryptographers hope is true, and sometimes it works, sometimes not.
|
thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,658
Last seen: 9 days, 11 hours
|
Re: simplicity is often the least recognizable just by its ability to mix in so thoroughly [Re: laughingdog]
#25743746 - 01/14/19 02:08 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
fascinating
the squirrels aims to mislead the other squirrels, for the sake of survival.
(or at least that's what we have observed, may be they're just playing a game of hide a nut)
is human deception really the same as animal deception?
if a human kills one of its kind (not in self defense), is it the same as an animal murdering one of its kind?
animal deception vs. human deception
|
thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,658
Last seen: 9 days, 11 hours
|
Re: simplicity is often the least recognizable just by its ability to mix in so thoroughly [Re: laughingdog]
#25743758 - 01/14/19 02:16 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
laughingdog said:
Quote:
thealienthatategod said:
i would ask, do you fear the lies being told about you?
I don't know of anyone who perceives me as I perceive my self.
why is that?
|
laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,829
|
Re: simplicity is often the least recognizable just by its ability to mix in so thoroughly [Re: thealienthatategod]
#25743768 - 01/14/19 02:23 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
and why do you presume that "i ... fear the lies being told about me [you]?" is it a problem in your life?
Anyway the answer is the cliche: if you only have a hammer everything looks like a nail and most folks see the world thru their own filters
Edited by laughingdog (01/14/19 02:25 PM)
|
thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,658
Last seen: 9 days, 11 hours
|
Re: simplicity is often the least recognizable just by its ability to mix in so thoroughly [Re: laughingdog]
#25743781 - 01/14/19 02:32 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
laughingdog said: and why do you presume that "i ... fear the lies being told about me [you]?" is it a problem in your life?
Anyway the answer is the cliche: if you only have a hammer everything looks like a nail and most folks see the world thru their own filters
I is the pronoun chosen for syntax, i'm referring to the human psyche in general.
humans hiding their nakedness.
but, i really am curious why others don't perceive you the way you perceive yourself?
|
laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,829
|
Re: simplicity is often the least recognizable just by its ability to mix in so thoroughly [Re: thealienthatategod] 1
#25744151 - 01/14/19 05:43 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
it is true of everyone-- For instance cops tend to think everyone is a liar because their job means that an inordinate percentage of people lie to them. and mothers often tend to think of their children as their baby, even once they are adults. I could go on, but you already know all this .... not sure why you are/were choosing to ignore this common knowledge.
You could also do a web search for terms like 'self deception' ( or perhaps 'personal transparency' ) which is are other aspects of the same issue, about which entire books have been written and many studies done.
I claim nothing special here.
|
MayaRefugee
Stranger


Registered: 12/16/09
Posts: 108
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
|
Re: simplicity is often the least recognizable just by its ability to mix in so thoroughly [Re: laughingdog] 1
#25744399 - 01/14/19 07:50 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Simplicity is the ultimate form of sophistication, I think Da Vinci said that.
I've heard it said that mastery is knowing what you can ignore or something along those lines.
If the point you are making is resonant with these sentiments than I agree, simplicity can be so effective at what it is doing that we lose sight of it doing it's thing among the noise of more complicated theories, actors, commentators, depictors, etc.
We often talk about the elegance of a solution, the absence of the non-essential, an inherent beauty contained within a solution, the unomplicatedness of it - this type of thing is conjured by what you wrote. Kind of how in the noise of complication the noiseless uncomplicated things are given little attention.
Pondering this made me think of the drunken-monkey fighting style where noisey seemingly senseless movement is used to achieve victory, hiding the signals an opponent could use to anticipate attacks (and thus gaining an advantage someone that telegraphs there moves would not have). A fight, most simply, is kind of just "hit him more effectively than he hits me", when a proponent of the drunken-monkey style fights this simplicity is hidden under a veil of exaggerated, almost caricature like complexity, they are unencumbered by complicated forms and by keeping it fundamentally simple they can launch attacks from infinite positions.
Pondering the nature of grace illuminates this musing as well, when we see someone perform an act with grace i.e. ballerina, gymnast, classical pianist, etc. there is a simplicity and unencumbered quality to it - there is a harmony in their act that is lacking in those who haven't simplified the complicated or difficult. These people are often overlooked because grace doesn't really float our boat in the modern world, in days gone by it might of because grace was a reflection of Godliness and Godliness was of more interest to the masses. In an ungodly time the simplicity of grace and it's inherent beauty doesn't register as beauty in the eye of the modern day beholder.
As for babies and nakedness, everything is difficult to a baby physically, yes they are naked as far as programming goes but the world teaches them what "clothes" to wear so to speak. Dishonest clothes are socially acceptable observable by the fact most people don't know what honest clothes are or that their clothes are dishonest - if they are deceiving each other most of them aren't doing it consciously, they believe the stories they tell themselves and the truths they derive from them (until there story is proven facetious by a more simple and elegant story). People that have the eyes to see the falsehoods and unnecessary encumbrances in stories and the clothes we wear are in the minority i.e. artists, seers, sages, healers, etc. Not everyone can get themselves to a point where they see like the aforementioned and therefore clothes, however disgraceful, help the world function and baby's stay alive, if an unclothed baby treated fire the way it did the first time it's whole life it wouldn't last long. If a baby never learns what social taboos are it probably wouldn't last long.
To a squirrel hiding your nuts might be the most uncomplicated thing it can do to manage it's food supply, uncomplicated by theories on morality, the ethics of deception, etc.
|
laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,829
|
Re: simplicity is often the least recognizable just by its ability to mix in so thoroughly [Re: MayaRefugee] 1
#25745088 - 01/15/19 08:02 AM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
E=mc2
simple or complex?
glass half full or half empty?
always birth, then death
simple or complex?
|
thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,658
Last seen: 9 days, 11 hours
|
Re: simplicity is often the least recognizable just by its ability to mix in so thoroughly [Re: laughingdog]
#25745370 - 01/15/19 11:51 AM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
MayaRefugee said: Simplicity is the ultimate form of sophistication, I think Da Vinci said that.
I've heard it said that mastery is knowing what you can ignore or something along those lines.
If the point you are making is resonant with these sentiments than I agree, simplicity can be so effective at what it is doing that we lose sight of it doing it's thing among the noise of more complicated theories, actors, commentators, depictors, etc.
We often talk about the elegance of a solution, the absence of the non-essential, an inherent beauty contained within a solution, the unomplicatedness of it - this type of thing is conjured by what you wrote. Kind of how in the noise of complication the noiseless uncomplicated things are given little attention.
Pondering this made me think of the drunken-monkey fighting style where noisey seemingly senseless movement is used to achieve victory, hiding the signals an opponent could use to anticipate attacks (and thus gaining an advantage someone that telegraphs there moves would not have). A fight, most simply, is kind of just "hit him more effectively than he hits me", when a proponent of the drunken-monkey style fights this simplicity is hidden under a veil of exaggerated, almost caricature like complexity, they are unencumbered by complicated forms and by keeping it fundamentally simple they can launch attacks from infinite positions.
Pondering the nature of grace illuminates this musing as well, when we see someone perform an act with grace i.e. ballerina, gymnast, classical pianist, etc. there is a simplicity and unencumbered quality to it - there is a harmony in their act that is lacking in those who haven't simplified the complicated or difficult. These people are often overlooked because grace doesn't really float our boat in the modern world, in days gone by it might of because grace was a reflection of Godliness and Godliness was of more interest to the masses. In an ungodly time the simplicity of grace and it's inherent beauty doesn't register as beauty in the eye of the modern day beholder.
As for babies and nakedness, everything is difficult to a baby physically, yes they are naked as far as programming goes but the world teaches them what "clothes" to wear so to speak. Dishonest clothes are socially acceptable observable by the fact most people don't know what honest clothes are or that their clothes are dishonest - if they are deceiving each other most of them aren't doing it consciously, they believe the stories they tell themselves and the truths they derive from them (until there story is proven facetious by a more simple and elegant story). People that have the eyes to see the falsehoods and unnecessary encumbrances in stories and the clothes we wear are in the minority i.e. artists, seers, sages, healers, etc. Not everyone can get themselves to a point where they see like the aforementioned and therefore clothes, however disgraceful, help the world function and baby's stay alive, if an unclothed baby treated fire the way it did the first time it's whole life it wouldn't last long. If a baby never learns what social taboos are it probably wouldn't last long.
To a squirrel hiding your nuts might be the most uncomplicated thing it can do to manage it's food supply, uncomplicated by theories on morality, the ethics of deception, etc.
love this post,
each time a layer of complexity is broken down, there lies simplicity, which is still quite complex, where underneath lies under more simplicity.
alternating layers of simplicity and complexity.
dog, i think it's an oxymoron of complex simplicity, and simple complexity.
does simplicity exist before complexity, or does complexity exist before simplicity or is it all an oxymoron?
|
laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,829
|
Re: simplicity is often the least recognizable just by its ability to mix in so thoroughly [Re: thealienthatategod]
#25745388 - 01/15/19 12:04 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
zen teacher used to say too much thinking
|
thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,658
Last seen: 9 days, 11 hours
|
Re: simplicity is often the least recognizable just by its ability to mix in so thoroughly [Re: laughingdog]
#25745405 - 01/15/19 12:14 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
lol, you're right.
similar to Maya's quote,
"Simple as possible, but no simpler." --Albert Einstein
sometimes i envision a skyscraper, when all i need is....nothing.
if i'm not thinking i'm believing.
|
life is good
Sun and sky and trees



Registered: 07/03/18
Posts: 1,205
|
Re: simplicity is often the least recognizable just by its ability to mix in so thoroughly [Re: thealienthatategod]
#25745416 - 01/15/19 12:20 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Thoughts can be good or bad or everything in between.
All is the same -- energy, light -- essence
(what is the most fundamental essence?)
Yet on the scale of positivity to negativity there is an infinite spectrum.
--------------------
I didn't draw this. "Hope your day is as wonderful, loving, and kind as you are."
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,759
|
Re: simplicity is often the least recognizable just by its ability to mix in so thoroughly [Re: life is good]
#25745671 - 01/15/19 02:24 PM (5 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
simplify: think like a tree: "sun" "water"
aw, nuts, that's the best
--------------------
_ 🧠_
|
|