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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Psychedelic Experience
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Books Arguing Against Psychedelics? * 1
    #25728154 -

I was wondering if anyone knows of any well written books arguing against using psychedelics for recreation or medicinal purposes. Funny/obvious point, google books against psychedelics, doesn't seem like there are any.

Before I get attacked for asking this, let me say I love shrooms and LSD and cant wait for my first DMT experience. The reason I'm asking is I've read a lot of great books arguing for these medicines (how to change your mind - Michael Pollan was the most recent). I'm fully convinced of their obvious benefits, but the way I am with controversial topics is I like to read both sides.

Sorry if this is in the wrong section, I'm new here!

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Re: Books Arguing Against Psychedelics? [Re: trippinghammer]
    #25728285 -

You're looking for a skeptical book? A more scientific one perhaps?

I can dig it.

Most of modern science would argue that magic mushrooms are safe to use and have more benefits than any side effects.

Closest I could find was this site: https://drugabuse.com/library/effects-psilocybin-mushrooms/

It mentions the potential risks of shrooms including it could cause a terrifying bad trip, it might be the wrong species (misidenificiation) and it might cause psychosis in people with pre-disposed tendencies to have psycosis. These are all possible outcomes of taking shrooms or what you thought were shrooms but were actually the wrong type.

Even with these possible outcomes, magic mushrooms are very safe to use.

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Re: Books Arguing Against Psychedelics? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #25728426 -

Meher Baba, an Indian guru wrote about the dangers of psychedelics although he did not actually write a book. His views can be found in a dialogue he had with Ram Dass, which used to be on the internet and probably still is I just forgot how to find it.

Here is a quote by him however:

"All so-called spiritual experiences generated by taking mind-changing drugs (such as LSD, mescaline and psilocybin mentioned in your letter) are superficial, and they add enormously to one's addiction to the deceptions of illusion, which is but the shadow of reality. The experience of a semblance of freedom that these drugs may temporarily give to one is in actuality a millstone round the aspirant's neck in his efforts towards emancipation from the rounds of birth and death."


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra

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Re: Books Arguing Against Psychedelics? [Re: Peyote Road] * 1
    #25728436 -

Quite frankly i've found that pretty much anyone who has bad things to say about Psychedelics, or who think they're "superficial" and not some very deep, hardcore, legit/genuine secretive shit, don't know a thing about them and likely haven't worked with them in depth from an honest and open mindset. Don't get me wrong, Psychedelics do have some downsides, like anything else, meditation and yoga even have downsides, but with as taboo as Psychedelics are, they're the best tools Humanity will ever have and to deny them rather than embracing them is foolish, ridiculous, immature, unwise, and downright retarded. These things are the best things that Humanity has going for it, if we do not learn from these tools, Humanity imo is doomed.


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Re: Books Arguing Against Psychedelics? [Re: Sabnock]
    #25728458 -

i see psychadelics as a lot like eating cheap gmo, non organic fruits and veggies. some people whine that it's not organic and all natural and omgzurgonnadie! ...yet they ignore the fact that you're a fat fuck who eats top ramen and chips beacuse you can't afford that healthy organic produce. even the "crappy" fruits and veggies are miles healthier than anything you've been eating and an extreme improvement, so the extremely tiny (if any) chance of harm you're going to get from the gmo(lol)/pesticide aspect of it is vastly outweighed by the benefits.

sure psychs aren't as great as reaching enlightenment through hard work and meditation and all that. but damn if they aren't a sight better over nothing for the vast majority of the populace. sure there's a tiny chance of danger, but a lot of said dangers are easily avoidable if you pay any amount of attention. (don't take with certain meds, don't take if you have a family history of schitzophrenia, don't be stupid and eat a random deathcap on your yard thinking it will give you a trip anywhere except to the cemetary)

this is coming from a guy who grew up hardcore against drugs of any kind, and who is extremely leery of drugs still. the only reason i decided to try psychs at all is because they're non-addictive and harmless, and i'm extremely glad i did. i may not have had any of the breakthroughs others have had yet, but they've brought me a lot of joy and magic back into my life, and shown me new possibilities. i know now it's possible what it feels like to be pain free, what happy truly feels like, and those glimpses of what could be are slowly building a drive for me to live healthier and attain such a state all the time, barring the occasional cold or stubbed toe or whatnot. :lol:

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Re: Books Arguing Against Psychedelics? [Re: Psion] * 1
    #25728618 -

Alan watts and brad warner have some pretty good perspective on psychedelic.

People are so quick to point to their naturalness. As if there's no poisonous mushrooms or plants that are 100% natural. Psychedelics are probably the no1 biggest hindrance to spiritual awaking, enlightenment, or whatever you want to call it. Because people confuse a drug trip with such silly ideas as ego loss. exactly 0 people in the history of the universe have had ego loss because of psychedelics and the people who say ego loss are cringe as it gets.


--------------------
Everything you need in one spot.

My Q&A thread. Ask me questions here rather than in Private Message
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5g a day keeps the 5g away

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Re: Books Arguing Against Psychedelics? [Re: Psion] * 1
    #25729066 -

Psion said:
sure psychs aren't as great as reaching enlightenment through hard work and meditation and all that.


Who says that? Some guy who wants you to pay him thousands of dollars per week to go to his silent meditation retreat? And what are the odds the retreat will deliver?

I thought the rest of your post was great tho! :smile:

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Re: Books Arguing Against Psychedelics? [Re: kabel]
    #25729136 -

major lessons are right


Like jokes about pi and the i. (Lowercase) is behnd

Psychede demand infohas parts.. maybe 3/5 you'll see if mpd or mpd


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]

Edited by cherylScott (01/07/19 01:52 PM)

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Re: Books Arguing Against Psychedelics? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25729146 -

bodhisatta said:
Psychedelics are probably the no1 biggest hindrance to spiritual awaking, enlightenment, or whatever you want to call it.


I dunno man, I've only seen this be a potential hindrance to folks who aren't terribly skilled at thinking for themselves to begin with.


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When we constantly pull things apart trying to see how it works, we may end up with only an understanding of how to destroy something
- nick sand


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Re: Books Arguing Against Psychedelics? [Re: bodhisatta] * 1
    #25729160 -

bodhisatta said:
Alan watts and brad warner have some pretty good perspective on psychedelic.

People are so quick to point to their naturalness. As if there's no poisonous mushrooms or plants that are 100% natural. Psychedelics are probably the no1 biggest hindrance to spiritual awaking, enlightenment, or whatever you want to call it. Because people confuse a drug trip with such silly ideas as ego loss. exactly 0 people in the history of the universe have had ego loss because of psychedelics and the people who say ego loss are cringe as it gets.


I prefer to think of it as ego restructuring, pull down that lego house for a brief moment and as it rebuilds itself you get a chance to observe it, maybe move/remove a brick or two.

100% agreed that psychs aren't some kind of magical distilled spirituality, but i wouldn't say they are biggest hindrance to improving ourselves - for me the biggest hindrance to all humanity is willful ignorance.

And psychs can definitely help knock that loose in a lot of us.


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Re: Books Arguing Against Psychedelics? [Re: Piaseski]
    #25729208 -

I've improved my work ethic and other things because of psychedelic insight. I think some people legitimately think psychedelics will lead them to some zen master enlightenment or whatever. Which just isn't true


--------------------
Everything you need in one spot.

My Q&A thread. Ask me questions here rather than in Private Message
Bod's chat thread

5g a day keeps the 5g away

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Re: Books Arguing Against Psychedelics? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25729254 -

Sadly you're dead right with that, it's the default state for most people to look for quick fixes in everything (relationships, drugs, money etc.), something i'm still working on unpicking in myself.

I also believe more and more that 'enlightenment' doesn't exist in the sense gurus and buddhism would have us believe...or at least isn't attainable in any tangible way. No light without dark and so on.


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Re: Books Arguing Against Psychedelics? [Re: Piaseski]
    #25729374 -

It's just a perspective. One that requires immense unlearning and dumming down of your current understanding of the world. It's an extreme paradigm shift. They say the ego is resistant to it but I don't really think that's the case. I think it's just hard for people to let go of what they feel is concrete more so than a selfish ego. It's an insecurity thing.

for instance it's merely a learned perspective that humans are seperate entities from the world/earth/universe/one another/etc... our eyes can see a physical boundary but if you had eye that could only see atomic particles there would hardly be a boundary. Besides what's a human without air, sunshine, a rock to stand on, gravity, other people to talk to, etc...

People are extremely set in their ways the world works. sometimes psychedelics can break down perspectives but it's no substitute for dedication to mindfulness.


--------------------
Everything you need in one spot.

My Q&A thread. Ask me questions here rather than in Private Message
Bod's chat thread

5g a day keeps the 5g away

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Re: Books Arguing Against Psychedelics? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25729384 -

I would suggest watch this video and even if you don't agree with anything he says be open to the perspective. Be open to many perspective and challenge your own.



--------------------
Everything you need in one spot.

My Q&A thread. Ask me questions here rather than in Private Message
Bod's chat thread

5g a day keeps the 5g away

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Re: Books Arguing Against Psychedelics? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25730813 -

Just because psychedelics present a dangerous trap in spiritual growth, saying that they are a hindrance is, in my opinion, misplaced blame. There are other dangerous traps of equal caliber, including religion, dogma, having followers / disciples, etc.

'Ego loss?' What is 'ego' even. When the word 'ego' rears its ugly head in discussions of spiritual growth, I always cringe a bit. Do we even use the real, Freudian definition (the organizing central component of the personality, that through calculations brings the drives and desires of the animalistic psyche -the 'Id'- and the internalized representation of social rules and expectations -the 'Superego'- into balance and distills it into behavior), or the colloquial one (selfishness, self-adoration, narcissism)?

There is the concept of 'ego death' on psychedelics, a less-than-clear expression for experiencing the dissolution of our sense of self, but if anyone thinks this does anything to their desires and attachments, they are of course sadly mistaken. However, psychedelics can show one important insight into internal processes they might otherwise overlook or not even notice. Handled well, they can help as much as hinder.

Btw in terms of the psychology of spiritual growth, I really recommend the integral psychology of Ken Wilber.


--------------------
Do you believe in the Third Summer of Love?

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Re: Books Arguing Against Psychedelics? [Re: PsyduckMonkey] * 1
    #25731805 -

Idk about a book but this is a really short video and he makes a pretty good case



:mmmkay:


--------------------
Within You , Without You


:mushroom2::levitate::mushroom2:

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Re: Books Arguing Against Psychedelics? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25735030 -

bodhisatta said:
I would suggest watch this video and even if you don't agree with anything he says be open to the perspective. Be open to many perspective and challenge your own.




"Everything you've ever experienced has never tooken place in a brain"

Maybe he should think about learning to speak English before lecturing us on the nature of reality.


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra

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Re: Books Arguing Against Psychedelics? [Re: Peyote Road]
    #25735617 -

Peyote Road said:
bodhisatta said:
I would suggest watch this video and even if you don't agree with anything he says be open to the perspective. Be open to many perspective and challenge your own.




"Everything you've ever experienced has never tooken place in a brain"

Maybe he should think about learning to speak English before lecturing us on the nature of reality.


Bahahha that's some enlightened reasoning right there.... /s

*edit - wouldn't this be an ad hominem circumstantial fallacy? Is there another one that would capture the ridiculousness presented in the comment above?

Edited by Lanc3r117 (01/10/19 09:43 AM)

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Re: Books Arguing Against Psychedelics? [Re: Peyote Road]
    #25735631 -

Single the video out for one grammatical error cool,

With that in mind is your life is also pointless and your opinions worthless because you've misspoke before?


--------------------
Everything you need in one spot.

My Q&A thread. Ask me questions here rather than in Private Message
Bod's chat thread

5g a day keeps the 5g away

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Re: Books Arguing Against Psychedelics? [Re: Lanc3r117]
    #25736301 -

Lanc3r117 said:
Peyote Road said:
bodhisatta said:
I would suggest watch this video and even if you don't agree with anything he says be open to the perspective. Be open to many perspective and challenge your own.




"Everything you've ever experienced has never tooken place in a brain"

Maybe he should think about learning to speak English before lecturing us on the nature of reality.


Bahahha that's some enlightened reasoning right there.... /s

*edit - wouldn't this be an ad hominem circumstantial fallacy? Is there another one that would capture the ridiculousness presented in the comment above?


I never said his ideas were wrong because he speaks poorly. I was just making fun of how stupid he sounds.

I don't have a very high opinion of this guy. I've seen his videos before and they tend to be unnecessarily long and rambling with a lot of unproven assertions. This is a guy who thinks Eckhart Tolle is enlightened.

That being the case he could very well have made some good points here, I admit to not watching the whole video. Can someone summarize what the hell he is trying to say?


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra

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Re: Books Arguing Against Psychedelics? [Re: Peyote Road]
    #25736886 -

Peyote Road said:
I've seen his videos before and they tend to be unnecessarily long and rambling


I've never finished one of his videos for that very reason. Even when I was interested in what he had to say, I just couldn't take it.

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Re: Books Arguing Against Psychedelics? [Re: kabel]
    #25737479 -

I find people with short attention spans to be far mkre interested in reinforcing their own viewpoint than challenging them. You don't necessarily need to even agree with different ones but being interested in them is a lot more healthy than thinking you've got it down so much that you feel bored listening to other ones.


--------------------
Everything you need in one spot.

My Q&A thread. Ask me questions here rather than in Private Message
Bod's chat thread

5g a day keeps the 5g away

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Re: Books Arguing Against Psychedelics? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25737496 -

My English teacher in high school made the class read Go Ask Alice by Beatrice sparks. very anti drug book looking back on it, seemed like it coulda been something from dare.

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Re: Books Arguing Against Psychedelics? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25738052 -

bodhisatta said:
I find people with short attention spans to be far mkre interested in reinforcing their own viewpoint than challenging them. You don't necessarily need to even agree with different ones but being interested in them is a lot more healthy than thinking you've got it down so much that you feel bored listening to other ones.


It's not that I'm not interested in other views. I imagine I probably agree with him to some extent, disagree on others, but he just talks to slow won't get to the point. I think that talk was an hour and 40 minutes. So I could listen to him talk for 1:40, or I could read Ramakrishna for an 1:40, I'll go with the latter.  He's got that yoga "slow talk" thing going and it's just not my frequency. Alan Watts on the contrary I can listen to all day.

If he has a great point that we're missing could you just say what it is?

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Re: Books Arguing Against Psychedelics? [Re: kabel]
    #25738124 -

kabel said:
I could read Ramakrishna for an 1:40, I'll go with the latter.  He's got that yoga "slow talk" thing going and it's just not my frequency. Alan Watts on the contrary I can listen to all day.

If he has a great point that we're missing could you just say what it is?


Thanks for the recommendation! Also, I love Alan Watts flow.

Admittedly, I did watch much of the video, but tuned out into thoughts as it went on after about halfway. Much of what I got was that, while I felt much unrelated to the "you" that he was speaking to, he was speaking to the average materialist in an effort to move them away from dismissing metaphysics under the notion of science and to consider the possibility of an appearance of a something from true nothingness. My mind loved exploring the no-vacuum, no-space, timeless possibility of nothingness. Now to think of his video, where does my mind exist or come from? He argues it doesn't have to be within the brain, because there (talking to the materialist) does not need to be a substrate for something to propagate, I guess.... eventually there's an appearance of something out of nothingness when it comes to explanation of reality. Realistically, a false notion of reality wouldn't change reality, but it is a limiting paradigm within which one may become stuck within.

Honestly, it might be wise for him to have the length of time allotted to such a radically different perspective of reality than the materialist would be limited to. Having that time is probably good to allow thoughts to simmer like bone stew for us bone heads.


To be honest, it made me think a lot of systems and the importance of the connections between the elements. It's like one of those theories of consciousness that states that it's an emergent property that results from neuronal interaction. Though, he took it way down to eventual nothingness to challenge my culturally reinforced view of a necessary substratum.

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Re: Books Arguing Against Psychedelics? [Re: Lanc3r117] * 1
    #25738245 -

I agree alan is far more interesting. The video i posted i havent watched in a long time but really what i remember the jist of it being was a helpful tool for some people who have maybe never tried to have the perspective of interconnectedness and inherently being inseparable from everything in the universe. I find a good starting point for people to remove themselves from the traditional dogma of the flesh sack until death point of view is to teach people that things like the earth and sun are "external organs" things you rely on just as much as whats inside your body. You don't have to take it as truth but just to ponder the possibility is healthy.


--------------------
Everything you need in one spot.

My Q&A thread. Ask me questions here rather than in Private Message
Bod's chat thread

5g a day keeps the 5g away

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Re: Books Arguing Against Psychedelics? [Re: kabel]
    #25738587 -

kabel said:
bodhisatta said:
I find people with short attention spans to be far mkre interested in reinforcing their own viewpoint than challenging them. You don't necessarily need to even agree with different ones but being interested in them is a lot more healthy than thinking you've got it down so much that you feel bored listening to other ones.


It's not that I'm not interested in other views. I imagine I probably agree with him to some extent, disagree on others, but he just talks to slow won't get to the point. I think that talk was an hour and 40 minutes. So I could listen to him talk for 1:40, or I could read Ramakrishna for an 1:40, I'll go with the latter.  He's got that yoga "slow talk" thing going and it's just not my frequency. Alan Watts on the contrary I can listen to all day.

If he has a great point that we're missing could you just say what it is?


Yes, I actually like to have my viewpoint challenged provided it's a well thought out argument and not intellectually dishonest or full of snide remarks toward people with my view.

The thing is, there is so much material available on the internet that if I am going to watch an hour long video or more I need a good reason  to. It needs to be either a topic that interests in me a lot or very well made. Otherwise why should I waste my time listening to some dude ramble on youtube? I am not even a materialist, so I am not even sure whether what he was saying would challenge my views. I just have no idea what he means "the brain doesn't exist" and I tried watching the first few minutes of the video and it still was not clear to me what his point was.


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra

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Re: Books Arguing Against Psychedelics? [Re: Lanc3r117]
    #25738603 -

Lanc3r117 said:
kabel said:
I could read Ramakrishna for an 1:40, I'll go with the latter.  He's got that yoga "slow talk" thing going and it's just not my frequency. Alan Watts on the contrary I can listen to all day.

If he has a great point that we're missing could you just say what it is?


Thanks for the recommendation! Also, I love Alan Watts flow.

Admittedly, I did watch much of the video, but tuned out into thoughts as it went on after about halfway. Much of what I got was that, while I felt much unrelated to the "you" that he was speaking to, he was speaking to the average materialist in an effort to move them away from dismissing metaphysics under the notion of science and to consider the possibility of an appearance of a something from true nothingness. My mind loved exploring the no-vacuum, no-space, timeless possibility of nothingness. Now to think of his video, where does my mind exist or come from? He argues it doesn't have to be within the brain, because there (talking to the materialist) does not need to be a substrate for something to propagate, I guess.... eventually there's an appearance of something out of nothingness when it comes to explanation of reality. Realistically, a false notion of reality wouldn't change reality, but it is a limiting paradigm within which one may become stuck within.

Honestly, it might be wise for him to have the length of time allotted to such a radically different perspective of reality than the materialist would be limited to. Having that time is probably good to allow thoughts to simmer like bone stew for us bone heads.


To be honest, it made me think a lot of systems and the importance of the connections between the elements. It's like one of those theories of consciousness that states that it's an emergent property that results from neuronal interaction. Though, he took it way down to eventual nothingness to challenge my culturally reinforced view of a necessary substratum.


But the appearance of something out of nothingness doesn't change the importance of the brain. If your brain gets damaged, your mind generally goes along with it. Take it from someone who has had two brain injuries. The brain is a very important organ. It may be that the seed of our consciousness exists beyond the brain, like the signal for a TV set comes from outside the TV. But it's the TV that takes that signal and translates it in a form we can understand. Similarly, it is the brain that serves of the seat of our mind. Damage to the brain can result in the loss of all kinds of mental functions. There's no reason this should take an hour and forty minutes to explain either.

What new or interesting points does he make in the video? Why does he say there's no such thing as a brain and that no experience has "tooken" place there?


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra

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Re: Books Arguing Against Psychedelics? [Re: Peyote Road]
    #25738801 -

If it's over your head idk what to say lol.


--------------------
Everything you need in one spot.

My Q&A thread. Ask me questions here rather than in Private Message
Bod's chat thread

5g a day keeps the 5g away

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Re: Books Arguing Against Psychedelics? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25738836 -

Regarding "the brain doesn't exist", here's an explanation from a neuroscience (yes, ironic) and perception/evolution perspective.


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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Psychedelic Experience
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