Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9  [ show all ]
The human mind is a muscle.
    #25722117 -

Its become a pillar stone of my beliefs so here's a chance to crumble pillars.



--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Edited by sudly (01/04/19 03:12 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25722351 -

The contrivance of Order & Chaos as a unilateral standard permits a variance of opinion on the matter. That being the case the conviction of our ideas and the wellbeing we associate with security may very well be of a transient nature. If this is true then how might we rephrase the following:

sudly said:
I once had a psychiatrist tell me that in order to have a disorder you need to be disordered and you are not that, since then I haven't thought of myself as having any sort of mental illness.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25722690 -

I am reading this one for now
https://www.cell.com/trends/cognitive-sciences/pdf/S1364-6613(13)00122-8.pdf

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25722938 -

sudly said:
Its become a pillar stone of my beliefs so here's a chance to crumble pillars.



Maybe your beliefs are muscle bound?
Then again who knows, ...
Maybe you can sell the idea somewhere?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25723828 -

Very nice! Will be reading through shortly.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25723829 -

Buster_Brown said:
The contrivance of Order & Chaos as a unilateral standard permits a variance of opinion on the matter. That being the case the conviction of our ideas and the wellbeing we associate with security may very well be of a transient nature. If this is true then how might we rephrase the following:

sudly said:
I once had a psychiatrist tell me that, "in order to have a disorder you need to be disordered and you are not that", since then I haven't thought of myself as having any sort of mental illness.



Honestly I don't know what you mean. So quotation marks maybe?


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25724356 -

sudly said:
Honestly I don't know what you mean. So quotation marks maybe?


OK; I'll try a different tack in this attempt to change/strengthen your mental muscle...

Disregarding sensory input, as a means of maintaining equilibrium, could be the mark of a stoic and steadfast constitution. Adding the criterion of honesty however adds an unnecessary complication to the poise.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown] * 1
    #25724827 -

hmm,
I would say, to exercise this muscle, regard everything, but keep your seat for a duration:
do observe sensory input(, including odd seeming bits and pieces - between the frames of perception).
in addition, neither indulge nor avoid perceptions and ideas within the observing practice.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25724879 -

redgreenvines said:
do observe sensory input(, including odd seeming bits and pieces - between the frames of perception).



Well I'm not going to observe the language in that scholarly article of yours.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25726515 -

Buster_Brown said:
redgreenvines said:
do observe sensory input(, including odd seeming bits and pieces - between the frames of perception).



Well I'm not going to observe the language in that scholarly article of yours.


did you just reflect back a non-observation?


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25727233 -

redgreenvines said:
regard everything,


Everything?

The horror, the horror

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25727789 -

if it is there, yes, observe
if you invoke it, that too, observe
prompted and not prompted phenomena


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25736031 -

Buster_Brown said:
sudly said:
Honestly I don't know what you mean. So quotation marks maybe?


OK; I'll try a different tack in this attempt to change/strengthen your mental muscle...

Disregarding sensory input, as a means of maintaining equilibrium, could be the mark of a stoic and steadfast constitution. Adding the criterion of honesty however adds an unnecessary complication to the poise.


I like the idea of maintaining equilibrium be it through the possibility of stoic and steadfast constitution. Though the disregard of sensory input doesn’t sit well with me, or at least it isn’t clear how they relate.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25736286 -

sudly said:
I like the idea of maintaining equilibrium be it through the possibility of stoic and steadfast constitution. Though the disregard of sensory input doesn’t sit well with me, or at least it isn’t clear how they relate.


Morals can be an example here e.g. Mary spurned his advances on moral grounds despite the quickening of her senses.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25736323 -

it is an archaic turn of phrase but that just makes the argument pertinent to an historical period.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25736494 -

redgreenvines said:
it is an archaic turn of phrase but that just makes the argument pertinent to an historical period.


In her defense we at least can't attribute these words to her: "Honestly, I don't know what you're talking about."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25737308 -

Okay, so you're saying that morals (however they are attained or maintained), are useful in enduring hardships and governing behaviour.

I don't disagree, and I don't see how you disagree.

To me you're like a riddler, you make a riddle of words that doesn't have a clear understanding and then when questioned, you align it with whatever suits. It's okay but I don't think it makes a point, at least not in regard to this thread.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25737350 -

I used morals as an example of stoicism and steadfastness. A derivative pertaining to the topic on hand, mental aberration, and personal aptitude, is that no matter how informed/intelligent the premise is, it cannot be fortified with dissimulation.

Edited by Buster_Brown (01/11/19 02:23 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25737361 -

Personal aptitude is developed, maintained and matured.

Where is the mental aberration though, and what the hell is being hidden?


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25737388 -

Dissimulation synonyms:
pretense, dissembling, misrepresentation, deceit, dishonesty, duplicity, lying, guile, subterfuge, feigning, falsification, shamming, faking, bluff, bluffing, counterfeiting, posturing, hypocrisy, double-dealing

You are assuming a position of authority, for the sake of argument, in defense of Democratic socialism and a progressive agenda.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25737413 -

Progressives are pretty schnazzy but nowhere in this thread has politics been discussed.

You can not tell me what is hidden, nor where the mental aberration is.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25737417 -

Suit yourself.

link in this thread to where mental aberration & politics were introduced.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25737420 -

Buster_Brown said:
The contrivance of Order & Chaos as a unilateral standard permits a variance of opinion on the matter. That being the case the conviction of our ideas and the wellbeing we associate with security may very well be of a transient nature. If this is true then how might we rephrase the following:

sudly said:
I once had a psychiatrist tell me that, “In order to have a disorder you need to be disordered and you are not that”, since then I haven't thought of myself as having any sort of mental illness.



The opposite of mental aberration was discussed here and there’s no mention of politics.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25737423 -

Having run it's course we might count on the judges to determine relevance, unless they have succumbed to dissolution.

Edited by Buster_Brown (01/11/19 04:28 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25737474 -

Buster_Brown said:
Dissimulation synonyms:
pretense, dissembling, misrepresentation, deceit, dishonesty, duplicity, lying, guile, subterfuge, feigning, falsification, shamming, faking, bluff, bluffing, counterfeiting, posturing, hypocrisy, double-dealing

You are assuming a position of authority, for the sake of argument, in defense of Democratic socialism and a progressive agenda.


you forgot paranoid, shallow, xenophobic, cronyistic, sneaky, germophobic, small handed, underhanded and pussy grabbing.

I mean if you want to get political,


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25737507 -

Apparently these traits can't be hidden.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25738821 -

You still haven't pointed to any mental aberration or explained what you meant by exclaiming dissimulation.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25738921 -

Ah, well, it might take a certified psychoanalyst to point out to you the finer points of grandiosity and defensive posturing. In maximizing aptitude you couldn't go wrong in bringing these two threads to the attention of professionals with the hope of at least proving me wrong if they have no insight into reshaping your public image.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25738956 -

Rational pride comes to mind, and I appreciate the insight of others on this matter, even yours.

I see you've mentioned there being two threads and I'm not sure why.

I'm still curious as to where you see dissimulation.
And while I disagree on what you may think of as mental aberration, I think I can see where you are coming from.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25739011 -

Quote:
I see you've mentioned there being two threads and I'm not sure why.


I'm astounded you don't recognize the association ofthe other thread with this one.

other than that, you might agree that some people will resort to a falsehood at the drop of a hat, and an effective speaker must take pains never to be caught out making falsehoods, this means practicing never to tell a lie, it's very difficult and proficiency takes years of tangling with one's ego. I was clearing brambles from a garden recently and was accused of cutting live trees by the house-bound occupant and the best I could come up with was "not all of them". Similarly, I have to guard against answering positively to demands to not cut any live trees on the property, that's easier cuz I just have to make no response.

Do you think the following response is an example of overt dissimulation?

"it is an archaic turn of phrase but that just makes the argument pertinent to an historical period."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25739044 -

What is the association between the two threads? I mean if it's that clear to you surely you can explain it.

I think your whole response is a fine example of dissimulation and underhanded attempts to deflect from the question.
And that response to me reads as, "It's an old saying the makes the discussion historical".
I don't know what to make of that response, it doesn't mean anything to me.

Please, again for the many'eth time, where do you see dissimulation in this thread?


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25739082 -

It's distinctly odd, I think, not to associate the very first response to you in this thread to the other thread given that said response contains your quote from that thread. Be it as it may, 'not making anything' of said response or it's inferred question of pertinence reflects a further dissimulation, and a hearty goodwill towards further altercations of this sort.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25739089 -

How does me saying a psychiatrist told me I'm fine in another thread relate to this one?

And how is that dissimulation?

I've already pointed out the quote you shared was the opposite of mental aberration.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25739112 -

I thought the observation that truth is subjective was pertinent to your premise here and could lead to you changing the wording in that quote thus fulfilling the requirements set forth in your challenge.

Now, however, I am aware of a peculiar obstinacy of character that resolves to be firm without regard to coherence. Are you sure you wont change your mind?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25739161 -

A question for the audience:

With everything that has been revealed in this thread, do you think the end justified the means?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25739164 -

Quote:
Buster_Brown said: the observation that truth is subjective


Excuse me?

What wording would need to be changed and how could it make a difference?

And where in this has coherence been lost?


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25739456 -

Maybe you wouldn't concede that this exercise has proved to be more recessive than progressive in the aims of your aforementioned concerns, and that consideration alone may alert you to the detriment this style of rhetoric has contributed to a perceived coherence. But your personal satisfaction is the crux here, so I'll be the first to congratulate you on this vigorous spectacle and hope that with further experiment you will continue to evolve the wording into something that truly reflects your potential.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25739481 -

I don’t have concerns here. You’ve merely brought up suggestions of mental aberration and dissimulation without explanation so I’ve aimed for clarity.

There is no need to reword my quote from the other thread, it was one that soothed my past qualms of mental illness. When I was younger I ended a tough relationship and took time to come to terms with my own value. It’s not relevant to this thread but I’m happy to share it.

In a way I want someone to crumble my pillar, so that I may improve upon it in a fashion not too dissimilar from kintsugi.
Quote:
Translated to “golden joinery,” Kintsugi (or Kintsukuroi, which means “golden repair”) is the centuries-old Japanese art of fixing broken pottery with a special lacquer dusted with powdered gold, silver, or platinum. Beautiful seams of gold glint in the cracks of ceramic ware, giving a unique appearance to the piece.




--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25739524 -

Quote:
I don’t have concerns here.


The progressive agenda of the Socialist Democrat doesn't extend this far?

Quote:
There is no need to reword my quote from the other thread, it was one that soothed my past qualms of mental illness. When I was younger I ended a tough relationship and took time to come to terms with my own value. It’s not relevant to this thread but I’m happy to share it.


Ah, that particular pillar is out of bounds then (can you at least recognize the lack of coherence of that statement with the topic of this thread?)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25739674 -

OK
actually mind is not a muscle,
this language is just a metaphor related to exercising the mind to strengthen good habits, and relaxing (not indulging) against impulses that would strengthen bad habits.


this is an important topic - no matter what your politics or age.


BB is highlighting 'moral' judgement which is essential in determining what are good habits - those worth reinforcing by repetition, however, BB is extremely conservative (maybe due to lack of confidence in his own ability to discern what is good or not), and accordingly, he refers to archaic literature and the 'old fashioned' moral choices of a chaste young woman.





I think Sudly is really trying to increase open mindedness for the future, and BB is reaching back in romanticism of a bygone era.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25739816 -

that was very beautiful red

I understand a good time to all you cats now

I just needed to awaken a little more to understand it this way

I am reading books by bhante gunaratana, loving kindness in plain english


--------------------
Make love not war
And art
Save the planet
Fix the earth

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25739866 -

Oh really? I 'm under the impression that Sudly is interested in "muscling" out the competition with "strong arm" tactics independent of reason.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25740165 -

Democratic socialism is not the same as a socialist, that’s a FOX talking point you’ve got there. And this isn’t a thread about politics.

The quote you shared of another thread was not related to this thread.

And although it’s hard to take, what red said about a metaphor actually resounded with me to a point.

Yet I’m still under the impression the mind is an actual autonomous and somatic muscular system.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25740349 -

Therefore I have learned that not all of your pillars were to be put to the test in this thread, and that democratic ownership by the community is not the same as ownership by the community.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25740360 -

sudly said:
I’m still under the impression the mind is an actual autonomous and somatic muscular system.


Somatic relating to the body, especially as distinct from the mind.

Maybe the brain could be construed to be seperate from the mind,but how can the mind be somatic according to the link given?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25740511 -

I have heard the term muscle head used quite a bit, and as the arm wrestling continues it's all I can think here


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25740518 -

I take it that you are not convinced of the transient nature of his pillar?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25740796 -

pillar is no less a metaphor than muscle,
I kinda like where he is going with it, metaphorically speaking.
hang on tightly


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25741183 -

Quote:
pillar is no less a metaphor than muscle,


As is sir Lancelot in the lists for the Queen, if you can see it, and then the excuse for Her actions due to a foundation on insanity.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25741235 -

So does that mean the mind can grow?


--------------------
Thank you for your Time...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #25741236 -

Expand?


--------------------
Thank you for your Time...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #25741279 -

What, like as a muscle expands or atrophies with or without use? I dunno; Perhaps savant abilities hint at an alternative possibility.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25741426 -

I guess if you keep adding pillars?


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25742565 -

Well with the knowledge of information.. not only is knowledge gained through every instant but so does information increase at each moment as well..

So the question is: does the mind grow to support the knowledge and information..?


--------------------
Thank you for your Time...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25742866 -

Buster_Brown said:
Quote:
sudly said: I’m still under the impression the mind is an actual autonomous and somatic muscular system.


Somatic relating to the body, especially as distinct from the mind.

Maybe the brain could be construed to be separate from the mind,but how can the mind be somatic according to the link given?


If you'd like to test my political pillars you're free to do so, I believe that quid pro-quo donations are a threat to democracy and that an amendment to remove large sum donations from corporations and the likes should be implemented, in essence to remove legal bribery within the political sphere.

It's interesting that anyone would suggest somatic systems are not correlated to mind interactions as they are responsible for gathering environmental information and relaying it to the brain via the CNS.

Quote:
The somatic nervous system consists of afferent nerves or sensory nerves, and efferent nerves or motor nerves. Afferent nerves are responsible for relaying sensation from the body to the central nervous system; efferent nerves are responsible for sending out commands from the CNS to the body, stimulating muscle contraction


We can then expand this to a description of the sensory-somatic nervous system.
Quote:
The sensory-somatic nervous system is made up of cranial and spinal nerves and contains both sensory and motor neurons. Sensory neurons transmit sensory information from the skin, skeletal muscle, and sensory organs to the CNS. Motor neurons transmit messages about desired movement from the CNS to the muscles to make them contract. Without its sensory-somatic nervous system, an animal would be unable to process any information about its environment (what it sees, feels, hears, and so on) and could not control motor movements.


There's even a term called somatic psychology which to me reflects interesting ideas.
Quote:
Somatics is a field within bodywork and movement studies which emphasizes internal physical perception and experience. The term is used in movement therapy to signify approaches based on the soma, or "the body as perceived from within,


Quote:
The theory behind somatic therapy is that the mind, body, spirit, and emotions are all related and connected to each other. As a result, the stress of past emotional and traumatic events affects the central nervous system and can cause changes in the body and even in body language, often resulting in altered facial expressions and posture as well as physical pain. Through developing awareness of the mind-body connection and using specific interventions, somatic therapy helps you to release the tension, anger, frustration and other emotions that remain in your body from these past negative experiences. The goal is to help free you from the stress and pain that is preventing you from fully engaging in your life.


To add to this there is the somatosensory system which is a part of the sensory nervous system.
Quote:
The somatosensory system is a complex system of sensory neurons and pathways that responds to changes at the surface or inside the body.

The somatosensory system tells us what the body is up to and what’s going on in the “environment” by providing information about bodily sensations, such as touch, temperature, pain, position in space, and movement of the joints. Unique among sensory systems. It is not localized in the head as are vision, hearing, taste, and smell, but rather is distributed throughout the entire body. (Kolb, 368)


There is however a distinction between sensory and somatosensory systems as explained here.
Quote:
As adjectives the difference between sensory and somatosensory is that sensory is of the senses or sensation while somatosensory is (biology) of or pertaining to the perception of sensory stimuli produced by the skin or internal organs.



--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25742961 -

sudly said:
Its become a pillar stone of my beliefs so here's a chance to crumble pillars.




yet I need to know your definitions in use to come to this conclusion prior to completely pulling a Diogenes's on your ass?


inb4 too durnk to read thread assuming you never stated your reasoning? d:shrug::smugjerry:


--------------------
:bliss:To be altruistic and humble, to spread love and positivity where ever I go.*:bliss: 

*Does not include the Romp 
:inlove3::sunny::shroomeryhead::feelsshroomyman::shroomeryhead::sunny::inlove3:
Test Kits? SurRealitys gocchu'!

Edited by Ras Rising (01/14/19 04:31 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25743010 -

Quote:
It's interesting that anyone would suggest somatic systems are not correlated to mind interactions as they are responsible for gathering environmental information and relaying it to the brain via the CNS.


Yes there is a correlation between the mind and body, the former using signals from the latter. It has not been suggested here that there is no correlation between them, but only that they are separate which could mean that the mind could continue to function after the body dies.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Ras Rising] * 1
    #25743012 -

I do not have quotes for you today, but the approach towards definitions of mental words is of high importance prior to any good discussion of mind or even in the modeling of what happens in the brain.
these words need some consistency and are foundational:
experience
sensation
memory
engram
perception
feeling
thought
learning
imagination
fact
knowledge.


precision has to be applied so that the words are not used synonymously as that makes the model collapse, but good interrelated definitions will make the model robust.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25743020 -

Buster_Brown said:
Quote:
It's interesting that anyone would suggest somatic systems are not correlated to mind interactions as they are responsible for gathering environmental information and relaying it to the brain via the CNS.


Yes there is a correlation between the mind and body, the former using signals from the latter. It has not been suggested here that there is no correlation between them, but only that they are separate which could mean that the mind could continue to function after the body dies.


not the mind, but possibly a copy of a mind could one day operate after the body of the original mind had deceased in a specially built cybernetic vessel.
functional mind is never 100% disembodied.
otherwise what continues is the impressions of dead or missing people  living on in minds that have not yet deceased.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25743082 -

redgreenvines said:
Buster_Brown said:
Quote:
It's interesting that anyone would suggest somatic systems are not correlated to mind interactions as they are responsible for gathering environmental information and relaying it to the brain via the CNS.


Yes there is a correlation between the mind and body, the former using signals from the latter. It has not been suggested here that there is no correlation between them, but only that they are separate which could mean that the mind could continue to function after the body dies.


not the mind, but possibly a copy of a mind could one day operate after the body of the original mind had deceased in a specially built cybernetic vessel.
functional mind is never 100% disembodied.
otherwise what continues is the impressions of dead or missing people  living on in minds that have not yet deceased.


I believe you're insisting that the mind is one and the same as the brain. Perhaps science will one day prove this incorrect. In the meantime we can enjoy pitting geniuses against Oxford University in the honorable pursuit of truth.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25743120 -

the brain hosts the phenomenon of mind/consciousness, because the brain receives sensations, makes memories, and mixes those memories with the streaming of sensations as perceptions, any one of which could cascade into more memory (thought) including all reactions.

if you think the brain can exist without flesh, then a mind can be disembodied (at least in your thought) but you and I still think differently on this topic


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25743136 -

Personally I think the mind (as distinctly separate from the brain) can be transferred from one body to another; But that's neither here nor there in this argument. Sudly's claim is with the department of dictionaries at the university and no longer with a highschool dropout.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25743177 -

your idea of transferring a mind from one body to another is interesting, and I have no doubt that some impressions, ideas, sensations, feelings can IN PART be transferred to another brain using helmets and electrostimulation.
However, the personality and several decades of memory are non-trivial to access in a flash, and even harder to implant since memories are formed over time, and that time relation is what makes them useful to a creature so that they can form reasonable attitudes to situations as they arise.


you do not have to declare where you stand on the matter.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25743232 -

Quote:
can IN PART be transferred to another brain using helmets and electrostimulation.


...discounting telepathy. Yes, well, which jury can we have faith in on that one?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25743260 -

it's really not up to a jury you know.


telepathy, FTL travel, other universes, these things are not made real or unreal by taking a vote.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25743311 -

Ha! I wonder if sudley's issue will be decided upon by a vote at the uni.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25743455 -

he might get some cash which can keep the issue open and active for a while.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25743563 -

Technically then, until such time as the big wigs change their tune, I win.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25743947 -

every one's a winner, BB


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25743994 -

The brain, muscles and bones have in common, that if you don't train them, they will shrink. I guess that's true for more, if not most organic components...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25744747 -

Buster_Brown said:
Quote:
It's interesting that anyone would suggest somatic systems are not correlated to mind interactions as they are responsible for gathering environmental information and relaying it to the brain via the CNS.


Yes there is a correlation between the mind and body, the former using signals from the latter. It has not been suggested here that there is no correlation between them, but only that they are separate which could mean that the mind could continue to function after the body dies.


That by no means does mean the mind could continue to function if the body dies.

It was suggested the mind and body are distinct, yet at the same time that they hold a correlation to one another, which to me would diminish their distinctiveness.

Can you humour me then, what would it mean to you if the somatic system was a part of the mind?

I can agree with this however,
Quote:
I have no doubt that some impressions, ideas, sensations, feelings can IN PART be transferred to another brain using helmets and electrostimulation.



--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25744890 -

Quote:
what would it mean to you if the somatic system was a part of the mind?


It would mean to me that the mind acquired a vehicle and operated it.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25744933 -

I think the mind is subject to affiliations and associations that can instigate psychosomatic phenomena that can persist after the association or affiliation has been consciously rejected. For instance the affiliations with a church group or the associations with an ethnic background could underlay illness post transformation, or post relocation.

Edited by Buster_Brown (01/15/19 05:43 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25745373 -

based on the assumptions in this thread, especially re mind and transferring memories, it would seem you all are more confident of memory being 'object like' than it is in fact...
see for example:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/07/180717194600.htm

Forty percent of people have a fictional first memory
——————————
http://brainblogger.com/2011/07/14/memory-not-as-good-as-we-think/

“….However, there are a number of confounding factors: 1) as best as we know now, memories are not stored in the brain like photographs or audio recordings of events; memories are recreated when they accessed; 2) memory is unreliable; 3) false memories are common…..” etc. article
——————————
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-memories-are-literally-recreated-each-time-they-are-remembered
Is it true that memories are literally recreated each time they are remembered?

“Jeff Kesselman, Deeply read amateur,married to someone with a psych BS.
Answered Apr 13 2014 · Author has 11.7k answers and 15.3m answer views

"Yes.  This is well established in psychology.

With the exception of people with true "photographic memories" we actually have very bad memories for raw sense information such as what we saw or heard.  What our memories do best is build associations.  These take the form of impressions or feelings.  We remember best impressions that come with strong emotional reactions.....”

it would seem that like the self which manifests differently according to the role being played, age, and gender etc. ; that both memory and mind are to some degree rather relative, mutable, and actually always in flux, so to think of them, and discuss them as  independent from environment objects, as opposed to interrelated constantly changing (every micro second) processes (with numerous interrelated feedback loops)(as well as parallel processing) **, can only lead to inaccurate conclusions IMO.  Thus mind is very different from muscle in important respects. but also very different from any notions of an immaterial mind and very different from any notion of a silicon based "mind", using binary based switching, at this time.

**
http://jonlieffmd.com/blog/neuronal-connections-and-the-mind-the-connectome

..."In a human fetus, almost a trillion neurons are produced. During the last month, they are produced at the unbelievable rate of 250,000 per second.  Eighty-to-hundred billion of these neurons will be utilized by experience and become permanent, while the other 900 billion will be pruned – that is, carefully dismantled with the material recycled by the brain’s unique immune system.

Later, during life, a relatively small number of new cells will be added in several parts of the adult brain related to memory and learning.  Amazingly, each of the remaining neurons can connect with up to a hundred thousand other cells. This number of connections is a truly enormous number: 10 thousand trillion. Even further complicating this picture is that these connections occur in many different ways, including different placements on neurons, as well as connections with the larger number of other brain cells that aren’t neurons.  Many of these connections change every day. While popularly it is thought that there is just one axon, in reality, the one axon ends with a large number of different connections.  As well, one neuron can have as many as 100,000 dendrites."

not meaningfully like a muscle

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: laughingdog]
    #25745678 -

memory is not an object it's more of a trail left in the sand


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25745742 -

"Where oh where did I leave that acetone?" -The debilitating effect of not having an onboard computer.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25745908 -

redgreenvines said:
memory is not an object it's more of a trail left in the sand


yes that must be it,
how silly of us all not to see it.
that accounts for false memory,
creating them differently from time to time,
repressed memory,
implanted memories,
fictional first memories,
and the very occasional others
who have a photographic memory
etc.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: laughingdog]
    #25746031 -

laughingdog said:
based on the assumptions in this thread, especially re mind and transferring memories, it would seem you all are more confident of memory being 'object like' than it is in fact...
see for example:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/07/180717194600.htm




The word "Suggest" in the article supports a hypothesis less definite than "Fact":

Quote:
"We suggest that what a rememberer has in mind when recalling fictional improbably early memories is an episodic-memory-like mental representation consisting of remembered fragments of early experience and some facts or knowledge about their own infancy/childhood.


Second article:"as best as we know now,"

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25746068 -

I sympathize with your view, sudly, although I must point out that so little is known about the brain/consciousness interface, and the causes and effects of will, that it can really only be a metaphor.

One example for it is that, after heavy cannabis use, one must work to get one's brain faster and stronger again -- by working it out. In this sense, it's a constructive comparison.

I have often thought of it this way: Anyone who has done advanced maths knows the nature of effort. But don't get caught up in the illusion that you're "doing" it. One has to flex that brain muscle to get results, and the fact of the matter is that that flexing is the extent of one's "free will." In this sense, I agree with you. But, again, it is really only a metaphor and a convenient way of thinking about it.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #25746642 -

So can the working out of the brain or mind be taking drugs..

In even high doses..

Like running an engine.. on allot of Mushrooms or DXM.. for example..

The strain on the mind is the workout specifically


--------------------
Thank you for your Time...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25746782 -

Buster_Brown said:
laughingdog said:
based on the assumptions in this thread, especially re mind and transferring memories, it would seem you all are more confident of memory being 'object like' than it is in fact...
see for example:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/07/180717194600.htm




The word "Suggest" in the article supports a hypothesis less definite than "Fact":

Quote:
"We suggest that what a rememberer has in mind when recalling fictional improbably early memories is an episodic-memory-like mental representation consisting of remembered fragments of early experience and some facts or knowledge about their own infancy/childhood.


Second article:"as best as we know now,"


And your point is what?
That memory is a stable permanent always reliable record?
And you have statistical evidence of this?
And you have studied the literature on false, but well intentioned, first person witnesses from court cases.
And can account for false and implanted memories?
And  that very few have any sort of photographic memory?
And many are absent minded?
And fail tests on material they just studied?
Just because all the details aren't worked out, and one can point this out, doesn't mean that some accurate conclusions can't be drawn. This nonsense is typical of creationist arguments.
Especially when one has no superior theory capable of making any accurate predictions.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: laughingdog]
    #25746821 -

Quote:
Just because all the details aren't worked out, and one can point this out, doesn't mean that some accurate conclusions can't be drawn.


The chance that the arrived at conclusions are false are included in a well worded hypothesis; Something your source from Quora seems to have overlooked.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #25746824 -

I’d argue a heck of a lot is known about the brain and its various pathways throughout the body.

As too are the effects of will known. As for the causes that’s debatable as it may differ between individuals.

What do you mean don’t get caught up in the illusion that you’re doing it?

And I’ve recently come across an idea that I’m looking further in to that posits, ‘action precedes perception’.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #25746924 -

DividedQuantum said:
...One has to flex that brain muscle to get results, and the fact of the matter is that that flexing is the extent of one's "free will." In this sense, I agree with you. But, again, it is really only a metaphor and a convenient way of thinking about it.


flexing is not the extent of "free will" but rather it is the opposite of slothfulness, it is the application of mental energy.

free will is what transcends reflex (including the reflex to get things done).

this transcending of reflex response to one's predicaments occurs when you are aware of your mental contents and can see a way to make a desired change over time, and then you also do use the flexing or application of mental energy to keep steering towards your perceived goal.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #25746957 -

sudly
Many of Robert Louis Stevenson's
stories came to him in dreams

I wonder how that fits the theories here

must be someway to make it fit.

Perhaps the greatest psychological healer Milton Erickson,
when asked about his theory of psychology,
said he formed a new one for every patient.

just might be something to learn from that attitude

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25746966 -

Buster_Brown said:
Quote:
Just because all the details aren't worked out, and one can point this out, doesn't mean that some accurate conclusions can't be drawn.


The chance that the arrived at conclusions are false are included in a well worded hypothesis; Something your source from Quora seems to have overlooked.


You are of course welcome to disagree. And to try and show you are better informed and more logical, but as far as I can tell have nothing interesting to say on the subject of memory itself.
So there would be no point in replying, especially as no interesting view has been presented by yourself on the subject of memory, and I have no need or desire to score some sort of debating points, if there even are such things.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: laughingdog]
    #25747034 -

Quote:
You are of course welcome to disagree.


I did, and once again you lose.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25747302 -

according to you which is a v. small sample of a population.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25747322 -

sudly said:
What do you mean don’t get caught up in the illusion that you’re doing it?



I mean that the ego-self might feel it has just cleverly solved a difficult equation, when in reality it was a happening in the subconscious mind that one really had nothing to do with in an intentional way. Such brain output seems just to happen; we are present merely at the beginning and end of the chain. The nature of self can be decidedly ambiguous at times.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25747490 -

redgreenvines said:
according to you which is a v. small sample of a population.


Ah! an innuendo supporting the ability of a democracy to elevate a theory to the status of fact.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25748366 -

clearly one man is making a very good go of being the only one who believes a wall has to be erected at the northern limit of Mexico, and all of his facts are unique as well.

very strong muscle in the head there perhaps.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25748400 -

"your brain is like an engine, and you can blow out parts"

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #25748665 -

DividedQuantum said:
sudly said:
What do you mean don’t get caught up in the illusion that you’re doing it?



I mean that the ego-self might feel it has just cleverly solved a difficult equation, when in reality it was a happening in the subconscious mind that one really had nothing to do with in an intentional way. Such brain output seems just to happen; we are present merely at the beginning and end of the chain. The nature of self can be decidedly ambiguous at times.


So you're saying that math equations aren't solved intentionally?

When I was studying I read the material and put in effort to figure out the solutions so I can only see this sort of happening if someone is a math professor and they're doing an equation they've done a thousand times over to the point they've developed some sort of muscle memory to figure it out..

So to me it seems these equations may be solved more efficiently through motor learning.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25749112 -

Well, to look at it that way, it is one's intent to solve an equation, of course. My contention is that it's a little disingenuous, in an objective way, to brag about it, since one's subconscious mind carried out the computations, and one's "self" is only aware of the input and output. I will say, though, that in some way, one's flexing of the brain muscle is necessary for the process to be carried out. So it's rather subtle.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #25749361 -

It’s disingenuous to say I solved a math equation?

Where are you getting this information from..


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly] * 1
    #25749432 -

"Disingenuous" perhaps in that "neurological circuits... involve a redirection of consciousness through pathways in the fabric of the cosmos itself."

http://nine.dividedquantum.info/

Which could mean that your mind is not actually performing the task.

The information being distributed by the Akashic Hall of Records, so to speak.

Therein laying the principle that if the mind is a muscle at all, it merely needs to push the right buttons to get what it needs.

Edited by Buster_Brown (01/17/19 02:17 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25749481 -

sudly said:
It’s disingenuous to say I solved a math equation?

Where are you getting this information from..



No. It's disingenuous to take full credit for a process that is almost entirely automatic. Buster's suggestion is also relevant, for related reasons.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #25749742 -

I could say the exact same thing about muscle movement, that it’s disingenous to take credit for moving your foot or arm.

No one looks at a math equation and then has it automatically or subconsciously calculated for them without their knowledge. Sure, neural processes happen, though they also happen when you move your foot or blink. In one way blinking could be considered a subconscious action, as too could breathing, but to suggest math equations are subconsciously completed is utterly ridiculous to me.

This is an incredibly silly suggestion in my opinion. Plus what Bb linked was full of quantum flapdoodlery with little to no substance I could see. Again feel free to fill me in. Or at least to point out its relevance.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25749796 -

Your point is well taken, and I think what is happening is that we are taking different perspectives on the same phenomena. Your way of seeing it is not wrong, and my way works for me.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #25750171 -

My way of seeing it still doesn’t see how what Bb said is related.

I don’t even know what phenomena you’re talking about.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25750209 -

where did you really want this thread to go?
mind is associateed most with brain and that is nervous tissue, not muscle tissue, so the topic is methaphoric, and unconstrained by rules of science, and here, we have no implicit rules except maybe 'no personalisms', and 'try not to post what belongs in mysticism'.

so whereever this thread goes, it is metaphorically sanctioned by the title.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25750552 -

I wanted to see how far I could take it in calling the mind a muscle and to see what I could learn from it.

To me the growth of the mind, as in learning and adapting and developing new behaviours, is so similar to that of how a muscle grows when it is consistently trained.

I don't think it is a metaphor to say the brain is connected to muscles yet for some reason they're often considered separate. To me the brain and the muscle systems it is connected to are not that different from one another. They are interrelated and intertwined in a way that helps us grow and I wanted to see why someone might oppose this simple notion.

I wouldn't so much mind if someone shared their personalisms that actually helped them to develop or grow in whatever it is they were trying to improve.

Even if something belongs in mysticism I'd appreciate an explanation rather than a dodge, though at the same time that's what mysticism's about IMO.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25750562 -

Quote:
unconstrained by rules of science


The bizarre is as constrained by science as much as the slice of reality we try to organize our precepts around. Just because someone hasn't experienced something out of their normal routine (such as telepathy)doesn't mean that phenomena has no possibility of existing, right?

Psychology or the Bizarre, I put it to you:

"I dreamed you had left my side
No warmth not even pride remained
And even though you needed me
It was clear that I could not do a thing for you

...I woke to the sound of drums
The music played, the morning sun streamed in
I turned and I looked at you
And all but the bitter residue slipped away slipped away"

Edited by Buster_Brown (01/18/19 12:49 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25752783 -

Despite what someone’s routine may be, some things are impossible as far as we know, like telepathy. Although technologically there may be similar possibilities.

That also doesn’t rule out the possibility that someone could experience something outside of their routine like an epiphany that helped them to gain an understanding or to see a certain subject from a certain angle that helped them to strive towards a goal they previously may not have thought achievable.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25752923 -

In the final analysis I have nothing to prove. Order and the appearance thereof is there for us to see.

We are here for our own entertainment. And from a scientific standpoint the order that surrounds us here should be discernable, over time. We can test hypothesis' and posit theories.

Edited by Buster_Brown (01/19/19 03:51 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25752947 -

sudly said:
Despite what someone’s routine may be, some things are impossible as far as we know,


Objection,your honor, plaintif assumes a position of majority.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25752983 -

Buster_Brown said:
sudly said:
Despite what someone’s routine may be, some things are impossible as far as we know,


Objection,your honor, plaintif assumes a position of majority.


Requesting motion for a directed verdict, there has been an appeal to an argument ad populum without presentation of exhibit.
Quote:
Rhetoric of science, as a branch of inquiry, does not look at scientific (natural science) texts as a transparent means of conveying knowledge, but rather it looks at these texts as exhibiting persuasive structures. Although the natural sciences and humanities differ in a fundamental way, the enterprise of science can be viewed hermeneutically as a stream of texts which exhibit an epistemology based on understanding.

This train of thought goes back to Gorgias who noted that truth is a product of discourse, not a substance added to it.

Aristotle could never accept the unavailability of certain knowledge, although most now believe the contrary. That is to say, Aristotle would have rejected the central concern of rhetoric of science: knowledge. Knowing itself generates the explanation of knowing, and this is the domain of the theory of knowledge. The knowledge of knowledge compels an attitude of vigilance against the temptation of certainty.



--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25753012 -

Objection, your honor, plaintiff presupposes accuracy of exhibit.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25753989 -

The defendant has no case!

Fo real though it's not a position of majority in saying some things are not known to be possible, it's staying within the known laws of nature to posit that flapping your hands will not allow humans to fly.



--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25754010 -

On second thoughts, plaintiff, I second your call for a directed verdict.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25754032 -

Do you have any exhibits to present?

If you do not,


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25754079 -

sudly said:
as far as we know,


Assuming a position of authority for the sake of argument presupposes a knowledge of the facts.

I herewith posit that the 64% Dark Matter in the universe outweighs the Light by almost 2 to 1, and when taken into consideration may forestall the certitude of "We". As an expert witness on the matter I hereby call Sunshine to the stand.

Furthermore, In hermeneutics "The interpretation of a text must proceed by framing its content in terms of the overall organization of the work." Link and careful perusal of this thread reveals glaring errors of conduct, in my opinion, that present a spectacle of wilful disregard to rational enquiry.

Edited by Buster_Brown (01/19/19 04:16 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25754111 -

Scientific knowledge is best established by evidence and experiment rather than argued through authority as authority has no place in science.

BBs exhibit on dark matter is inadmissible and the rules of evidence permit it to be excluded from the proceedings given it is not probative (no relevance).

Quote:
He said that every problem of interpretation is a problem of understanding and even defined hermeneutics as the art of avoiding misunderstanding.


Can you point to the misunderstanding?


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Edited by sudly (01/19/19 11:21 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25754134 -

It stands to reason that a dead person posting on the internet is more knowledgeable on the subject of Dark Matter and therefore a credible witness.

In conclusion, your honor, may I point out the discrepancy in the testimony of the plaintiff; To wit: compare the original reference to hermeneutics

Quote:
Rhetoric of science, as a branch of inquiry, does not look at scientific (natural science) texts as a transparent means of conveying knowledge, but rather it looks at these texts as exhibiting persuasive structures. Although the natural sciences and humanities differ in a fundamental way, the enterprise of science can be viewed hermeneutically as a stream of texts which exhibit an epistemology based on understanding.


...with the follow-up:

Quote:
Scientific knowledge is best established by evidence and experiment rather than argued through authority as authority has no place in science.


Defense rests.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25754160 -

No discrepancy has been noted, quotes show scientific inquiry follows by exhibiting a persuasive structure established by an understanding of evidence and experiment.

Considering to file for psychological evaluation on the defendant for claim of dead people being being able to partake in living actions.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25754204 -

For the time being I think the jury will not take long deliberating on whether the mind is somatic, what with dead people posting an'all.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25754279 -

You may as well call democratic socialist Marxist with that attitude. The deliberation was on the query of how plausible it is that the somatic muscular systems are a part of mind.

I'd like to forward those files, the defendant is still positing mention of dead people partaking in living action.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25754290 -

Quote:
The deliberation was on the query of how plausible it is that the somatic muscular systems are a part of mind.


Will you provide the specific reference to that in this thread?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25754357 -

Quote:
sudly said: Yet I’m still under the impression the mind is an actual autonomous and somatic muscular system.



--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25754390 -

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the posit that the mind is an actual autonomous and somatic muscular system, is the same as saying that the somatic muscular systems are a part of mind.



Quote:
Yet I’m still under the impression the mind is an actual autonomous and somatic muscular system.



Quote:
The deliberation was on the query of how plausible it is that the somatic muscular systems are a part of mind.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25754401 -

First one suggest the somatic muscular system is a part of mind, and that so to is the autonomous system a part of mind.
Second one suggest the somatic muscular systems are a part of mind.

I think you're splitting hairs here.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25754461 -

The posit that the mind is an actual autonomous and somatic muscular system is not the same as saying the somatic muscular systems are a part of mind.

A mainframe computer system is housed in a building, but the building is not part of the mainframe computer system.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25754468 -

let's try your point of view for the moment, how is the mainframe computer system powered?


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25754474 -

An autonomous mainframe could be powered by a number of means, for one, rats on tread wheals for the sake of argument

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25754498 -

Your suggestion is not analogous to a mind body problem then is it.. because normally the computing system would be powered via the building it is contained within. If rats powered it there would be no need for a building.

And what is the difference between saying the mind is an actual autonomous and somatic muscular system and saying somatic muscular systems are a part of mind?


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25754512 -

You changed the premise, during the argument, to fit the circumstance. I don't think that holds up under scrutiny.

Edited by Buster_Brown (01/19/19 07:54 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25754541 -

The only thing different in the second statement was that I didn't mention the autonomous system because the main focus so far has been on the somatic system.

It is still my belief that the autonomous systems and somatic systems are a part of mind. That no sole system represents what the mind is, and that it is achieved through an intermingling of these systems and the brain.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25754544 -

Great, you have a modified pillar to defend.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25754549 -

What exactly has been modified?


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25754574 -

Under pressure, the premise of the mind being a muscle, changed to an autonomous somatic muscle, and then to the plausibility that the somatic muscular systems are a part of mind, as a defensive maneuver apparently, against the jury deliberating solely on whether the mind is somatic.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25754602 -

In light of comment by rgv I thought it more descriptively accurate to say my beliefs were that the mind consisted of autonomous and somatic systems. The plausibility of the claim is something I wanted to discuss and it doesn't change the premise.

The deliberation is not on if the mind is somatic, but on whether and if so, how somatic systems are a part of mind.

I must say your acts of distortion are legendary.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25755054 -

Furthermore the appeal that "some things are impossible as far as we know," confronts a stumbling block in the shape of religious conviction. From the rhetoric presented the "we", who accept that some  things are impossible, must exclude the participants in prayer. Apparently "we" in the scientific community insist that any linguistic response they receive must necessarily come somatic muscular systems, which is simply not the case. Now you'll have to impress us to the "fact" that anybody with ties to a religious organization cannot by default be a member of the scientific community.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25755066 -

As far as any understanding goes, human beings are incapable of flight through the flapping of their hands.

Quote:
Buster_Brown said: Apparently "we" in the scientific community insist that any linguistic response they receive must necessarily come somatic muscular systems, which is simply not the case.


I don't understand?

It's pretty ironic some religious folk are a part of the scientific community but they surely are, I know a guy who is pretty religious but still believes in evolution and is fascinated by chemistry.

Some of the views taken within the scientific community are surely at odds with religious texts, but cherry picking's a pretty common thing among the religiously inclined.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25755077 -

Haha, anyone who claims to receive spiritual communication must be deranged because the "we" accept that this is impossible. The "we" then reject any communication from the Church of England and from the University of Oxford by association. I think the "we" is better construed as "I".

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25755089 -

Not necessarily, though anyone who thinks humans can flap their hands to fly may need a new jacket and lots of care.

Church communications are context dependent, pushing for no contraceptives can be harmful, pushing for loving can be helpful, but not if you're gay lol


Publications by the university of Oxford are G.

Quote:
Scientists have established a link between brain damage and religious fundamentalism

A study published in the journal Neuropsychologia has shown that religious fundamentalism is, in part, the result of a functional impairment in a brain region known as the prefrontal cortex. The findings suggest that damage to particular areas of the prefrontal cortex indirectly promotes religious fundamentalism by diminishing cognitive flexibility and openness—a psychology term that describes a personality trait which involves dimensions like curiosity, creativity, and open-mindedness.

Religious beliefs can be thought of as socially transmitted mental representations that consist of supernatural events and entities assumed to be real. Religious beliefs differ from empirical beliefs, which are based on how the world appears to be and are updated as new evidence accumulates or when new theories with better predictive power emerge. On the other hand, religious beliefs are not usually updated in response to new evidence or scientific explanations, and are therefore strongly associated with conservatism. They are fixed and rigid, which helps promote predictability and coherence to the rules of society among individuals within the group.

Religious fundamentalism refers to an ideology that emphasizes traditional religious texts and rituals and discourages progressive thinking about religion and social issues. Fundamentalist groups generally oppose anything that questions or challenges their beliefs or way of life. For this reason, they are often aggressive towards anyone who does not share their specific set of supernatural beliefs, and towards science, as these things are seen as existential threats to their entire worldview.

https://www.alternet.org/2019/01/scientists-have-established-link-between-brain-damage-and-religious-fundamentalism/



--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25755094 -

Haha, "AlterNet"- Alternative history commonly regarded as "speculative fiction"

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25755102 -

Quote:
As implied earlier in the introduction, previous research indicates that certain forms of religiosity are associated with a preference for certainty and avoidance of uncertainty (Jost, Glaser, Kruglanski, & Sulloway, 2003). In particular, fundamentalism is associated with the need for cognitive closure (Brandt & Reyna, 2010; Saroglou, 2002), which mediates the relationship between fundamentalism and prejudice towards value-violating outgroups, with close-mindedness and preference for order and predictability accounting for the effect (Brandt & Reyna, 2010). A need for cognitive closure represents the desire for predictability and rigidity instead of openness, and is correlated with conservative, conforming values (Calogero, Bardi, & Sutton, 2009; Kruglanski & Webster, 1996). Recently, a number of studies have found an inverse relationship between analytic thinking and religious disbelief (Gervais & Norenzayan, 2012; Norenzayan, Gervais, & Trzesniewski, 2012; Willard & Norenzayan, 2013). These studies describe analytic thinking as an underminer of religious beliefs which may either suppress default tendencies to form religious beliefs or inhibit culturally acquired concepts. Finally, it has been argued that religious beliefs arise from deficits in perceptual tracking of ecological variation (e.g. Foster & Kokko, 2009; Guthrie, 1993). Collectively, these findings predict that fundamentalism may be related to reduced cognitive flexibility and trait openness, and that these cognitive strategies critically rely on processing in the PFC.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5500821/




--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25755110 -

I don't think the 'preference for certainty' in context with cognitive disorder is going to help your position.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25755121 -

Are you certain it's not impossible to fly via the flapping of your hands?


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25755143 -

depends on the conditions, occupant of space station, diver...

Did you change the title of this thread from "The mind is a muscle" to "The human mind is a muscle"? cuz that would constitute a change of mind.

Yes, the human mind is tied to the sensory somatic nervous system.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25755186 -

Breathe easy, you’ll be alright.

Nope, but this is an interesting turn of events.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: sudly]
    #25755588 -

It could be posited that the mind is tied to the body like a hermit crab is tied to it's shell, by choice, but that doesn't make the mind somatic nor the hermit crab part of it's shell.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25757671 -

Quote:
Buster_Brown said: Yes, the human mind is tied to the sensory somatic nervous system.


Members of the Jury, this Court dismisses you and thanks you for a job well done. This court is adjourned.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25758141 -

Buster_Brown said:
It could be posited that the mind is tied to the body like a hermit crab is tied to it's shell, by choice, but that doesn't make the mind somatic nor the hermit crab part of it's shell.


hermit crabs change their shells when they grow too big.
our minds do not get different bodies like hermit crabs.
the analogy is junk-ish


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25758181 -

I bet there's a "we" in there somewhere.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25758765 -

a wee bit junkish

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25758897 -

Browndirt Cowboy 1

Captain Fantastic 0

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25759920 -

Moment Of Truth



May meditation continue to provide you with solace
When the world tries it's darndest to knock you off center

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25762004 -

Do you think doing heavy drugs is a workout for the mind body system/field..?


--------------------
Thank you for your Time...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #25762126 -

Must be. Everything is in hindsight, I guess.

But I'll steal a march and say: "You're right, watching TV, reading a novel or sleeping, are not comparable to the workout on drugs, from the linear perspective."

Edited by Buster_Brown (01/23/19 01:02 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #25762467 -

BrendanFlock said:
Do you think doing heavy drugs is a workout for the mind body system/field..?


heavy use is more of a sanity competition or test like the Olympics rather than a workout such as in training and maintenance - where you might use micro-dosing and or meditation.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25763124 -

the mind is a muscle
the penis is a muscle
the mind is a penis

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: laughingdog]
    #25763202 -

laughingdog said:
the mind is a muscle
the penis is a muscle
the mind is a penis



I think a great number of women would agree with this.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #25763362 -

you are on a roll
one bad metaphor deserves another.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25763821 -

rolling on the floor laughing?
while eating jelly rolls

could just as well be

the mind is a muscle
the anal sphincter is muscle
the mind is an asshole

or

the mind is a muscle
the mollusk is a mussel
Mussels are muscles
the mind is a mollusk

time to clam up
for now

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: laughingdog]
    #25765503 -

goo you too

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25785708 -

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bhante+gunaratana


--------------------
Make love not war
And art
Save the planet
Fix the earth

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Ferdinando]
    #25785824 -

"the Buddha warned that counterfeit Dhamma will arise in the world, just like counterfeit gold, causing the True Dhamma to disappear." link

Is not the true dhamma then subjective?

One person's way to end suffering is thru planning
Another's is thru drug therapy
And another is thru vigorous self-promotion

It all simmers down to a subjective preference.

Whose subjective preference do you follow? (rhetorical question)

Edited by Buster_Brown (02/02/19 11:07 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25786680 -

the quote of the dying Buddha indicates that monks should refer to what has been recorded in the suttas, not what some new guru claims is meant by the suttas. i.e. don't take my interpretations of Buddhism as dharma.

delve in yourself and read and meditate...

Otherwise, the meanings of words that were written over 500 years ago drifts, and, in my opinion, while I am no buddha, many of the descriptions in the suttas and in abhidhamma are inconsistent in many accepted empirical details (about how the mind works, etc.) - even if the totality of all those is still substantially correct. but this is due to differences in what we now can see in modern biology compared to the best approximation of natural science that they had 1000 years ago etc.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25786734 -

Quote:
the quote of the dying Buddha indicates that monks should refer to what has been recorded in the suttas, not what some new guru claims is meant by the suttas.


I believe the first sutta was recorded 30 years after Gautama's passing, so we could readily expect some adornment.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25787263 -

In my opinion all writing and conjecture furthers the human race..

Although some ideas are purely devils advocate it doesnt mean that the counter assumption has gone to waste..

Anything said or done furthers the brow of the thinker!


--------------------
Thank you for your Time...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #25787489 -

OK, I will keep writing

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25787965 -

yay

have you seen milarepa? I highly recommend it. it's awesome, the movie

the reason I'm asking is because I want to watch it as you, I am in favor of treating others as you want to be treated, this is a very sensible philosophical indicator

I like this philosophy, moving things because you want it to be like that for yourself, from others, like I am you and you are me etc.


--------------------
Make love not war
And art
Save the planet
Fix the earth

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Ferdinando] * 1
    #25788968 -

if you watch it as you then you are doing both of us a service.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25789558 -



--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25789897 -

Quote:
the reason I'm asking is because I want to watch it as you





link

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The human mind is a muscle. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25790516 -

alien intrusiveness

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9  [ show all ]

Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Human mind vs body(Re:the self post)
( 1 2 all )		 PsycheStudent 3,870 24 05/03/10 04:11 PM
by BluePixieWaves
* The Human Mind EvilGir 1,461 12 07/31/02 06:57 AM
by Murex
* Geometry of the human mind. infidelGOD 663 4 01/08/03 10:23 AM
by Zero7a1
* the duelity of the human mind. Larrythescaryrex 855 10 08/31/03 06:08 AM
by Rhizoid
* Human vs. Chimpanzee Strength
( 1 2 all )		 Swami 11,983 29 07/16/02 01:34 PM
by francisco
* Alien/Human Relations, Version 2
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )		 ShroomismM 15,712 103 02/08/04 06:12 PM
by Shroomism
* Human Logic, Linguistics and The Mushroom ParabolaChair 3,297 6 04/29/04 05:59 AM
by fireworks_god
* The future of human existance JuR 954 2 02/15/02 11:10 AM
by skaMariaPastora

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
4,367 topic views. 1 members, 27 guests and 5 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.077 seconds spending 0.015 seconds on 16 queries.