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Invisible2Experimental
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why do people choose 'evil' over 'good'
    #2572135 - 04/17/04 10:03 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Yes I know good and evil are just concepts, but is there perhaps a true and untrue, having no association to good and evil? Like for example, is it untrue to nature to kill needlessly? Yes... does this mean sometimes you could justify killing someone/thing? yes...... Does this mean there is also a many numbers of things untrue to nature besides killing? ...I would say so, or at least I would hope. I think if humanity could find some of these things that are untrue and change them, the world would be a better place. ..... but back to the title of the post, why do we so many times to give into hate and anger and murder others? hell, even get mad and resort to violence? Why do we choose to destroy things natural to better ourselves even when sometimes the choice is not a consciouss one?......Why? Because human nature is inherently evil, and once souls taste of its 'pleasures' it is a lifelong battle to remain of the 'true nature'.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: why do people choose 'evil' over 'good' [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2572204 - 04/17/04 10:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I don't think people are inherently evil. Some people are lazy and self-centered. They want what they want, and they want it the easy way.

The ego gets in the way. Usually when someone kills someone, it's because of anger, or because they want what the other person has.

The bad part is that those people will have to keep coming back until they learn to do things the right way. The hard way.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: why do people choose 'evil' over 'good' [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2572240 - 04/17/04 10:57 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Noone chooses evil. They think they are doing good.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: why do people choose 'evil' over 'good' [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2572347 - 04/17/04 11:47 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

So true.

I don't think evil is chosen so much as goodness is derailed. People live in their own dillusions of goodness. I mean, save for a select few, most people think they are a good person... but if you look at the ratio of good and bad that seems to be going around lately, the numbers don't match the claims of the individuals.

I'm not entirely sure that made perfect sense.

If not, I apologize. I've been sampling the tea.  :blush:


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: why do people choose 'evil' over 'good' [Re: Frog]
    #2572377 - 04/17/04 11:57 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Usually when someone kills someone, it's because of anger, or because they want what the other person has.

Usually when someone kills an animal or plant, it's because they want what the other critter has. Is that evil?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineViaggio
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Re: why do people choose 'evil' over 'good' [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #2572378 - 04/17/04 11:57 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Good and evil are too simple of concepts to be considered as motives or labels. I think people do things because of selfish (or selfless) desires.


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."


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OfflineRenegade8
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Re: why do people choose 'evil' over 'good' [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #2572412 - 04/18/04 12:09 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

JacquesCousteau said:
I don't think evil is chosen so much as goodness is derailed.





Interesting that you posted that right now 'cause I've recently realized that sometimes the system is set up to make it hard for people to do good even when they want to. This veers a little off-topic from what you were getting at, but that one sentence just struck me.

A couple months ago, I let a friend's sister and her young son come live with me 'cause they were about to be kicked out of a shelter onto the street. Everything was fine 'til Thursday, when this tweaker bitch in my apt. complex complained to the manager about my unauthorized guest (I'd forbidden the tweaker's son from playing here 'cause he's a little punk, so she was pissed.)

I got a 3-day notice to either put this lady on my lease (with approved credit, which ain't gonna happen for her), kick her back out onto the streets, or get evicted. I have a year lease & it's going to cost me 2 months rent (at 875/mo!) to get out of here. She's not even responsible for any rent here, but because she has a prior eviction, we're fucked.

So, I've tried to do a good thing, but I'm now in the position of fucking myself over or being a complete asshole to save myself. I could never live with myself if I did that, so I'm gonna end up moving & then getting sued by this shitty complex. I feel like if I let the system force me into behaving a way that is against everything I stand for, I might as well give up on all this spirituality stuff & just be a selfish dick like everyone else.

I know that's not quite where the thread was going, but it's yet another thing that makes it hard to do what's right, even when you want to.


--------------------
I'm just see-through faded, super jaded, and out of my mind. - R.I.P. Layne


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Anonymous

Re: why do people choose 'evil' over 'good' [Re: Renegade8]
    #2572891 - 04/18/04 04:15 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

you have a heart of gold dude.  Its all about the fucking money for many souls, its a damn shame isnt it.  lost sight of what realy matters and totally fucking materialistic.  im so sorry to hear this :crying:

Frog said: "The ego gets in the way."  and i say :thumbup: exactly, this is the best most simple answer you can get(as long as u know what ego is)

everybodies reply is the shit.

Jacques, yes your post made perfect sense  :heart:

Quote:

does this mean sometimes you could justify killing someone/thing?




i also wan to comment on this, since im a know it all asshole :wink:.  There is no justifiable reason to kill someone in the end, you will look and look for an excuse and see jack shit because it was not done out of love.  love is all you will be looking for in your life, please just trust this, i know this is for real man, i know it.  I know that while you are embodied and have an ego you may think there is a justifiable reason, but there is not.


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Offlinepsikooz
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Re: why do people choose 'evil' over 'good' [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2572952 - 04/18/04 04:31 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

SpecialEd said:
Noone chooses evil.  They think they are doing good.




Very true.

Very few commit any action believing that the action is evil. It is from the perspective of an observer that an action can be deemed evil.

There is a general truth of what is evil, and what is good. But you can train a group of people to believe that something that is generally "Evil" is good.

People do not choose what they know to be "evil", they choose what they have been conditioned into believing is the right thing to do.

Someone that chooses to do "evil" things and knows that it is evil, and is not good, well they could be considered evil. while i believe there arent that many of this type in existence.

Somebody that believes killing people is a good thing, and kills someone is different than someone that knows killing is wrong but kills anyway.  Although the same acts are commited, one is performing from the perspective that is good, and one from the perspective that is bad. While and outside perspective would view both as evil, this is an example of how evil is subjective.

Thats enough philosophical rambling.

Peace and Love

:heart: :mushroom2: :grin:


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Anonymous

Re: why do people choose 'evil' over 'good' [Re: psikooz]
    #2573080 - 04/18/04 05:05 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

People do not choose what they know to be "evil", they choose what they have been conditioned into believing is the right thing to do.





yes, true. Though you can be misguided, the truth is still within you. your heart tells you when you are doing something that is bad, but many like to ignore that divine feeling.

i dont think anyone is evil, no such thing, all there is, is love. We are all good within, and within is who we really are, as humans we arent entirely our true selves with all of our wisdom of love, its actually a challenge to use it, to find it within, that love that is always there to show ourselves and others. we just make some really shitty choices.


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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: why do people choose 'evil' over 'good' [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2573493 - 04/18/04 11:57 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

>Why? Because human nature is inherently evil
-Mrs.Bainbridge: "Greetings and salutations, scholars! Open your "Lord of the Flies" books to page 54. Now, did anyone notice the motif that men are inherently evil? No? Well, we shall be examining this subject for the next 3 days, and everyone is required to write 2 pages on a 2 paragraph excerpt that has seemingly no correlation to the subject at hand."

But on the subject at hand... good and evil are completly relative. Choose on or the other or both or niether. To judge all others by your concept of good and evil is egotisical... and this leads to very bad scenarios. However, Mrs. Bainbridge has also rubbed off on me and I'm inclined to destroy... A masterpeice can take a life-time to make, and a few seconds to destroy. In general, people only take themselves into account.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: why do people choose 'evil' over 'good' [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2573829 - 04/18/04 02:18 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Good and Evil are NOT merely "concepts," they are Pure Ideas that have 'emanated realities' in all the worlds. The Biblical myth of the fall of 1/3 of Heaven's angels speaks to the reality of Evil in the Highest realm (Azilut in the Kabbalistic model). In the Jewish Kabbalistic model, the spheres of Judgement and Mercy compliment each other from the Left and Right, or Passive and Active columns on the Tree of Life. Also, there is the Idea of the 'Kellipoth,' the 'Shadow' cast by GOD's Light upon creation. In humans, there is the 'Yetzer Hara' - the 'evil inclination.' This is a far healthier idea than St. Augustine's doctrine of Original Sin which has forever after effected Christianity. An evil inclination can be managed, especially with the Grace of GOD, whereas in the doctrine of Original Sin, all humans are inherently and spiritually heir to the rebellious nature expressed in the Adam & Eve mythos. That is why the Incarnation of Christ was said to be absolutely essential to each individual's salvation (whereas Jesus Himself recognized that He was here 'not for the righteous, but for the sinners,' which contradicts the doctrine of Original Sin).

Personally, I am a Jewish Christian who believes in the notion of an Evil Inclination rather than the automatic total depravity of Original Sin. All may have fallen short of the glory of GOD, but there are ARE righteous human beings, just as Abraham's faith was recognized as imputing righteousness to him, AND salvation I might add, centuries before Jesus appeared on the planet. The contrived doctrine of Jesus in the Nicean/Apostle's Creed which says "...He was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into Hell..." was a provision for the righteous of pre-Jesus times to be saved from 'Limbo' (another Catholic notion), a Purgatorial state, as well as for those in Hell.

Of course, the doctrine of evil as simply the 'absence of goodness,' or 'Privatio Boni,' versus the infernal will of Satan and his minions are additional perspectives in the West. In Islam, sinners may go to Hell, but not for Eternity. The Eastern takes on evil are extensions of 'shame' cultures rather than our 'guilt' cultures. In much of Indian thought, evil is the result of ignorance and unenlightenment, whereas for the West, we are guilty of 'offending' the Holy One.

The bottom line for East and West would appear to be ethics that are grounded in Compassion as the yardstick for Goodness. I concur, but would point out that the Wisdom-Compassion formulation of Vajrayana Buddhism is an important clarifier, lest Westerners equate saccharine-sweet sentimentality or co-dependent, passive behavior with Compassion. Compassion-in-action is sometimes a slap in the mouth, an arrest or an involuntary hospitalization.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: why do people choose 'evil' over 'good' [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2574548 - 04/18/04 05:51 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

How about just killing someone because you can? Just to see how far your personal sphere of influence can go? Just to humiliate the one you're killing? The only real power people have over eachother is the power to make them suffer. That's what power is, IMHO.

Choosing evil is not always the easiest thing to do. It might actually take a whole lot of willpower to kill another man, but if you do it to best / test yourself, you'd want to conquer yourself, wouldn't you?


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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OfflineHahzist
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Re: why do people choose 'evil' over 'good' [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2574633 - 04/18/04 06:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"Usually when someone kills someone, it's because of anger, or because they want what the other person has.

Usually when someone kills an animal or plant, it's because they want what the other critter has. Is that evil?"

But does that someone get what the other critter or plant has? Yes. (meat, nutrients, or turning trees into paper) So I would say thats not evil

But does a person kill another person because the other person has the personality that they want? Maybe.. Do they get that personality by killing them? No. So is that evil? Quite possibly.


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: why do people choose 'evil' over 'good' [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2575338 - 04/18/04 10:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

SpeciaEd:
"Noone chooses evil. They think they are doing good."

I tend to disagree. Are you saying people do know know what is 'wrong' at the time they are doing it? Even if they think they are stealing thier neighbors car for a 'good' reason(cause they crashed thiers and needed a car for drug dealz/pimping), they know it is 'wrong' even though doing it makes them 'feel good' at the time, or perhaps for weeks. . Good feelings do not = 'good' or right.


Frog: "Usually when someone kills someone, it's because of anger, or because they want what the other person has. "
Swami: "Usually when someone kills an animal or plant, it's because they want what the other critter has. Is that evil"

Well, this would bring up the question: Are there moral or perhaps eartly rules that are 'good', even though they may seem contradictory to certain people at the time. I think killing plants and eating animals was part of 'gods' plan for the way things were going to 'work' on planet earth. Life is built on sustaining energy, and humans must rely on the Earth for thier food. There is a difference between killing a buffalo because your hungry, and slaughtering 100,000 in one day for the sole purpose of the hunt. The first is 'right' the second is 'wrong'.


TheShroomHermit: . "To judge all others by your concept of good and evil is egotisical"

You mean Ms Quinten??? Did I ever say I judged people by thier acts and my interpretation of what is good or evil? Saying someone who murders is 'wrong'(let me make clear the meaning of murder in this instance: useless butchery of man or animal or plant for the sole purpose of fun, excitement, anger managment, ect) , is like saying I exist. We can not know for sure but we damn well have a good feeling about it.

Alanstone:
"How about just killing someone because you can? Just to see how far your personal sphere of influence can go? Just to humiliate the one you're killing? The only real power people have over eachother is the power to make them suffer. That's what power is, IMHO."

Yes, that sums up most wars... Now a days though killing for power isen't just an ego rush of " I can hurt you", it is political and world wide. 'Power' now a days is greed, money, 'sin'.


Thanks for all the replies there were great and if I did not respond it is because I agree/and or have no coment.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: why do people choose 'evil' over 'good' [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2575430 - 04/18/04 10:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Frog: "Usually when someone kills someone, it's because of anger, or because they want what the other person has. "

Swami: "Usually when someone kills an animal or plant, it's because they want what the other critter has. Is that evil"

2Experimental: Well, this would bring up the question: Are there moral or perhaps eartly rules that are 'good', even though they may seem contradictory to certain people at the time. I think killing plants and eating animals was part of 'gods' plan for the way things were going to 'work' on planet earth. Life is built on sustaining energy, and humans must rely on the Earth for thier food. There is a difference between killing a buffalo because your hungry, and slaughtering 100,000 in one day for the sole purpose of the hunt. The first is 'right' the second is 'wrong'.


Yes.  I was talking about killing for the "wrong" reasons, not killing for the "right" reasons.  I believe it's okay to kill a plant or animal for food.  However, I do not believe it's okay to kill another human for food.  :grin:  That would be wrong.

It's also wrong to kill another human being out of anger, or out of greed.  Which is why I said that the ego gets in the way.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: why do people choose 'evil' over 'good' [Re: ]
    #2576852 - 04/19/04 08:10 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Kottonmouth said:
you have a heart of gold dude.  Its all about the fucking money for many souls, its a damn shame isnt it.  lost sight of what realy matters and totally fucking materialistic.  im so sorry to hear this :crying:



So an apartment manager who is trying to feed and clothe his family should allow unacceptable risks (people with 'bad' credit and prior evictions) just out of love? If he did this to everyone, eventually he wouldn't be able to pay the bills on the place, and would either jack up the rent, or have to close up shop, kicking much more people out of affordable housing.

Quote:


i also wan to comment on this, since im a know it all asshole :wink:.  There is no justifiable reason to kill someone in the end, you will look and look for an excuse and see jack shit because it was not done out of love.  love is all you will be looking for in your life, please just trust this, i know this is for real man, i know it.  I know that while you are embodied and have an ego you may think there is a justifiable reason, but there is not.



Lets say that I love my family. Lets say that a man is trying to kill my family.  If I don't kill him, my entire family dies, if I do kill this person who has made the decision to hurt my family, they'll live. Explain how me killing him isn't done out of love.


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Offlinefilthysock
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Re: why do people choose 'evil' over 'good' [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2576906 - 04/19/04 08:34 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Evil gets you the quick fix of satisfaction and will of way, but truely, satisfaction from good lasts a life time and pays off better, its just not as appearant for the majority people at least not yet.


--------------------
Magic mushrooms are not addictive, the shroomery is!


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: why do people choose 'evil' over 'good' [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2576944 - 04/19/04 09:00 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

In my opinion, and in my observed reality, based on my interpretation of all the "facts" at hand, people dont CHOOSE anything. They just do or do not, either is what must be at that moment. But if u wanna debate this, there are other posts for that.


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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: why do people choose 'evil' over 'good' [Re: ]
    #2577371 - 04/19/04 12:20 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

>There is no justifiable reason to kill someone in the end, you will look and look for an excuse and see jack shit because it was not done out of love.
-Mercy killings. What if, for some reason, someone you loved begged and begged to die. If you killed them, no matter how much it hurt you to do it, you would never feel relief from the guilt because you could never justify it? You say it's impossible to kill out of love but I disagree.


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