Home | Community | Message Board


Sporeworks
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Jordan's King: U.S.-Arab Tension at Worst
    #2571942 - 04/17/04 08:42 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Jordan's King: U.S.-Arab Tension at Worst
Fri Apr 16,11:26 PM ET  source 


By BETH FOUHY, Associated Press Writer

SAN FRANCISCO - King Abdullah II of Jordan said Friday that the twin images of Israelis battling Palestinians and American troops occupying Iraq (news - web sites) have generated more animosity toward the United States in the Arab world than he has ever seen.


The enduring Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the issue that still consumes most Arab countries, the 42-year-old king said.


Abdullah said Americans are "being held responsible, rightly or wrongly" for that conflict. "That is the recruiting ground for extremism and terrorism that we see in the Middle East," he said.


Abdullah, who spoke Friday to San Francisco's Commonwealth Club, is meeting President Bush (news - web sites) next week to discuss the Iraq war and ways to relaunch the administration's "road map" to Middle East peace. He declined comment on Bush's endorsement of an Israeli proposal to withdraw from the Gaza Strip (news - web sites) but keep some Jewish settlements on the West Bank.


As part of that plan, Palestinian refugees would not be allowed to return to Israel. Jordan, which borders Israel to the east, is home to more than 1.4 million of those refugees, and many Palestinians were critical of Bush's endorsement.


Like his late father, King Hussein, Abdullah has been praised as a moderating voice in the region, and Jordan is considered one of the United States' closest Arab allies.


Another in a long list of slanted articles.  :rolleyes:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Jordan's King: U.S.-Arab Tension at Worst [Re: Swami]
    #2571975 - 04/17/04 08:57 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
King Abdullah II of Jordan said Friday that the twin images of Israelis battling Palestinians and American troops occupying Iraq (news - web sites) have generated more animosity toward the United States in the Arab world than he has ever seen.



Come on Swami, who are you going to believe, some "Jordanian King" who doesn't know shit about the mideast or our boy genius President who is fluent in all Arabic tongues and deeply immersed in Arab culture? They hate us because of our freedoms, they're jealous of our freedoms! Now go back to sleep...

... and don't forget, "Bush and Cheney '04"


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Jordan's King: U.S.-Arab Tension at Worst [Re: Swami]
    #2574714 - 04/18/04 08:23 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:


As part of that plan, Palestinian refugees would not be allowed to return to Israel. Jordan, which borders Israel to the east, is home to more than 1.4 million of those refugees, and many Palestinians were critical of Bush's endorsement.





In 1948 about 500,000 newly immigrated Arabs left Israel because Arab government told them to get out because Israel was about to be massacred. Most left by their own will anticipating a return home after the Jews were all dead. Instead Israel won the War of Independence and now 5 million people want into Israel. That is ten times the number that left. Moreover that number is as big as Israel's entire Jewish population. The 'Righ of Return' would mean the end of Israel period. The Israeli constitution says Israel must be a Jewish state. With Jews in the minority Israel could not exist. The 'right of return' is means nothing else than the destruction of Israel by letting millions of Arabs who have never even lived there in. That CANNOT be part of any peace process as the end result is the end of Israel.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGernBlanston
unintended sideeffect

Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 841
Loc: In my pants
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
Re: Jordan's King: U.S.-Arab Tension at Worst [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2574915 - 04/18/04 09:24 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Valid point, for sure. Not a black and white issue, so I can't say that I agree necessarily, but valid nonetheless.

And it is precisely the validity of arguments from both sides of the equation that have me about 2/3 of the way scared out of my skull.

If anyone saw the press conference with Bush(*) and Sharon in Israel on Wednesday, you know what I'm talking about. * and Co. have set themselves up in exactly the position where if Israel continues it's assasination policy (and they will) and the Arab world unites against Israel in defense (and you can be damn sure that they'll do that too), then the US will literally have no choice but to come in behind Israel and fight on their side, since they will be "united against a terrorist threat to the region and to the stability of the middle east".

November may not be soon enough. I see World War III through the peephole and he didn't bring enough Tabouli for everyone. (I don't know what that means either, but you get the idea.)


--------------------
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Jordan's King: U.S.-Arab Tension at Worst [Re: Swami]
    #2576041 - 04/19/04 01:08 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

*sings in head... *duh duh DUH DUH DUH duh DUH* *

I really am surprised at people who think that this whole issue is about how "they hate us, cause they are jealous"

Ive said it before, and ill probably say it again.


--------------------
What?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Jordan's King: U.S.-Arab Tension at Worst [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2576482 - 04/19/04 03:13 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

To evolving and Divided: I said nothing; merely linked an article without offering an opinion.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Jordan's King: U.S.-Arab Tension at Worst [Re: Swami]
    #2576609 - 04/19/04 04:07 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
To evolving and Divided: I said nothing; merely linked an article without offering an opinion.




And I was commenting on one statement in the article. It looks like I misread that Abdullah was insising the Right of Return for refugees when he was not. oops.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Jordan's King: U.S.-Arab Tension at Worst [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2576635 - 04/19/04 04:21 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

about 500,000

Source?

now 5 million people want into Israel

Source?

Most left by their own will

Yeah, kinda like the jews went to the gas chambers of "their own free will"  :rolleyes:

On July 13, 1948, Israeli troops forcefully compelled the entire population of as many as 70,000 men, women and children to flee their homes. Systematic looting followed. Swarms of new Jewish immigrants flocked to Lydda and Ramleh, and within days these ancient towns were transformed from Palestinian to Jewish municipalities. 

The initial attack against Lydda-Ramleh was led on April 11 by Lt. Col. Moshe Dayan, who was later Israel's defense minister and foreign minister. Israeli historians describe him as driving at the head of his armored battalion "full speed into Lydda, shooting up the town and creating confusion and a degree of terror among the population."1

Two American news correspondents witnessed what happened in the ensuing assault. Keith Wheeler of the Chicago Sun Times wrote in an article titled "Blitz Tactics Won Lydda" that "practically everything in their way died. Riddled corpses lay by the roadside." Kenneth Bilby of the New York Herald Tribune wrote that he saw "the corpses of Arab men, women and even children strewn about in the wake of the ruthlessly brilliant charge."2

Israeli historian Benny Morris reported: "All the Israelis who witnessed the events agreed that the exodus, under a hot July sun, was an extended episode of suffering for the refugees, especially from Lydda. Some were stripped by soldiers of their valuables as they left town or at checkpoints along the way .... One Israeli soldier ... recorded vivid impressions of the thirst and hunger of the refugees on the roads, and of how 'children got lost' and of how a child fell into a well and drowned, ignored, as his fellow refugees fought each other to draw water. Another soldier described the spoor left by the slow-shuffling columns, 'to begin with [jettisoning] utensils and furniture and in the end, bodies of men, women and children, scattered along the way!

"Quite a few refugees died-from exhaustion, dehydration and disease-along the roads eastwards, from Lydda and Ramleh, before reaching temporary rest near and in Ramallah. Nimr Khatib put the death toll among the Lydda refugees during the trek eastward at 335; Arab Legion commander John Glubb Pasha more carefully wrote that 'nobody will ever know how many children died."6

More than just the murderous sun and rough terrain contributed to the miseries of the displaced Palestinians. Israeli soldiers searched them for valuables and indiscriminately killed those they took a dislike to or thought were hiding possessions. The London Economist reported: "The Arab refugees were systematically stripped of all their belongings before they were sent on their trek to the frontier. Household belongings, stores, clothing, all had to be left behind."7 One youthful Palestinian survivor recalled: "Two of my friends were killed in cold blood. One was carrying a box presumed to have money and the other a pillow which was believed to contain valuables. A friend of mine resisted and was killed in front of me. He had 400 Palestinian pounds in his pocket."


http://www.palestineremembered.com/al-Ramla/al-Lydd/Story761.html


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Jordan's King: U.S.-Arab Tension at Worst [Re: Xlea321]
    #2576643 - 04/19/04 04:26 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)



--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Jordan's King: U.S.-Arab Tension at Worst [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2576682 - 04/19/04 04:49 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

And your source?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,733
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 4 months, 5 days
Re: Jordan's King: U.S.-Arab Tension at Worst [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2576806 - 04/19/04 07:36 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

In 1948 about 500,000 newly immigrated Arabs left Israel because Arab government told them to get out because Israel was about to be massacred.




Source? I dont think it was quite that simple. The fact that the Israelis systematically destroyed hundreds of Arab villages might have played a small part in the mass exodus of arabs from Israel as well dont you think?

Quote:

5 million people want into Israel. That is ten times the number that left.




Well obviously the number would be larger as they would want to return with their families as well.

Quote:

The 'right of return' is means nothing else than the destruction of Israel by letting millions of Arabs who have never even lived there in.




Oh, sort of like the Balfour decleration in reverse you mean?

Quote:

That CANNOT be part of any peace process as the end result is the end of Israel.




The Israelis arent showing much interest in any peace process right now. They have completely abandoned the roadmap, remember it was the Israeli's who abandoned it not the Palestinians. But still Bush supports the Israelis.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
enthusiast
Registered: 04/14/04
Posts: 399
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
Re: Jordan's King: U.S.-Arab Tension at Worst [Re: Xlea321]
    #2576920 - 04/19/04 08:46 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
http://www.palestineremembered.com/al-Ramla/al-Lydd/Story761.html




ob?jec?tive ( P ) Pronunciation Key (b-jktv)
adj.
Of or having to do with a material object.
Having actual existence or reality.

Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices: an objective critic. See Synonyms at fair1.
Based on observable phenomena; presented factually: an objective appraisal.



This source hardly seems objective. However, since most US news sources have a jewish owner somewhere near the top, it'd be hard to say that they are objective either. I doubt that Redstone edits Fox's news to make sure it's not to harsh to the nation he donates millions of dollars to each year.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Jordan's King: U.S.-Arab Tension at Worst [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2576969 - 04/19/04 09:14 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Anyone else smell some lysergic/johnnyrespect/enima lately?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Jordan's King: U.S.-Arab Tension at Worst [Re: GazzBut]
    #2577650 - 04/19/04 01:57 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:

Oh, sort of like the Balfour decleration in reverse you mean?

The Israelis arent showing much interest in any peace process right now. They have completely abandoned the roadmap, remember it was the Israeli's who abandoned it not the Palestinians. But still Bush supports the Israelis.




First of all, the Balfour declaration gave about 80% of British Mandate Palestine to the Arabs. Arabs got two states, Transjordan (Jordan) which makes up most of the land of British Palestine, and the Palestinian State. At the time of Israel's independence the numbers of Jews and Arabs were about equal. In fact from the time of the Balfour declaration MORE Arabs than Jews immigrated to Palestine (700,000 as compared to 500,000) If this did not happen Jews would outnumber the original mostly Beduin population of Palestine ten to one. Seeing that their number was almost the same as the number of Arabs that immigrated in the same period and got only a fraction of land their share of land far was less porportional to their size.

As for the roadmap, perhaps you should listen to some of the things Arafat says in Arabic. After the Oslo accords Arafat publicly stated that he lied to Rabin and Clinton and that his real goal was the destruction of Israel and the Jews. This is a fact. There is no peace process. It is very clearly documented by facts that the Palestinians will make no concessions and only use the guise of a failed peace process as a way of avoiding retaliation for suicide bombings. When the PA knowingly sends suicide bombers into Israel, and then when Israel strikes back scream 'Peace Process!' 'Peace Process' it is completely absurd. Israel has been the only participant in that process. Once it was crystal clear the Palestinians were not acting in good faith they gave up. Fatah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the Al Aksa Martyrs Brigade don't want peace, they want victory. Whenever you see Arafat make what looks like a peace sign it is really the 'V' for victory, which is what 'Fatah' means in Arabic. There is no peace process if one side is hell bent on destroying the other.

The 'peace process' ended in 2000 when Arafat refused to take back almost all of the West Bank, Gaza and half of Jerusalem. He was offered nearly everything he wanted and rejected it. From there the Palestinians chose violence instead of diplomacy and the second Intifada began.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Jordan's King: U.S.-Arab Tension at Worst [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2577742 - 04/19/04 02:24 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

He was offered nearly everything he wanted and rejected it.

Come off it. The agreement Arafat signed was the most craven humiliation imaginable and even then the Israelis wern't satisfied. God knows what the palestinians felt when they saw him sell them out with that peice of shit agreement.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Jordan's King: U.S.-Arab Tension at Worst [Re: Xlea321]
    #2577794 - 04/19/04 02:34 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
He was offered nearly everything he wanted and rejected it.

Come off it. The agreement Arafat signed was the most craven humiliation imaginable and even then the Israelis wern't satisfied. God knows what the palestinians felt when they saw him sell them out with that peice of shit agreement.




Arafat didn't sign the 2000 Camp David Accords. You are talking about the OSLO ACCORDS of 1993, which gave the Palestinian Authority control over 98% of all Palestinian land in return for an end to terrorism (which never ended). Seeing your position on the Oslo Accords, the basis for the peace process, I would assume you DON'T support the peace process.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Jordan's King: U.S.-Arab Tension at Worst [Re: Evolving]
    #2577795 - 04/19/04 02:35 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

... and don't forget, "Bush and Cheney '04"



*'84


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
enthusiast
Registered: 04/14/04
Posts: 399
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
Re: Jordan's King: U.S.-Arab Tension at Worst [Re: Xlea321]
    #2577986 - 04/19/04 03:19 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
He was offered nearly everything he wanted and rejected it.

Come off it. The agreement Arafat signed was the most craven humiliation imaginable and even then the Israelis wern't satisfied. God knows what the palestinians felt when they saw him sell them out with that peice of shit agreement.





That isn't the agreement I was alluding to, nor do I believe it to be the one he was. The offer at Camp David was for allof the pre-67 War territory returned, basically it gave every single concession that the Pal's were asking for. Arafat's response? He didn't even counteroffer.

Answer me, if you please, why you believe that the side that is willing to give every concession (except for Jerusalem, which is one that you DIDNT mention) to the other side is morally wrong, while the side that doesn't even consider or make a counter offer is the one that is peace bound?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,733
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 4 months, 5 days
Re: Jordan's King: U.S.-Arab Tension at Worst [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2578274 - 04/19/04 04:39 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

The point I was making was that the Balfour agreement paved the way for many people to migrate to a country they had never lived in. Not a right to return more a right to turn up.

Quote:

In fact from the time of the Balfour declaration MORE Arabs than Jews immigrated to Palestine (700,000 as compared to 500,000)




Really? In 1922 the make up of the area was thus: Palestine consisted of 78 percent Muslim Arabs, 9.6 percent Christian Arabs and 11 percent Jews (mainly new immigrants to the region).
link

Quote:

As for the roadmap, perhaps you should listen to some of the things Arafat says in Arabic.




And you would do well to pay attention to what Sharon says in Hebrew.

Quote:

There is no peace process. It is very clearly documented by facts that the Palestinians will make no concessions and only use the guise of a failed peace process as a way of avoiding retaliation for suicide bombings.




Dont make me laugh. Hamas offered ceasefires to aid the peace process. Israel continued bombing and killing. 3:1 on the kill ratio, or doesnt that count for anything with you? Both sides have held back the peace process at different times. Of late it is Israel who seem to be willfully destroying any chance of peace.

Quote:

The 'peace process' ended in 2000 when Arafat refused to take back almost all of the West Bank, Gaza and half of Jerusalem.




What was the general consensus amongst Palestinians regarding the deal put on the table? Or doesnt that matter? Would be interesting to know. If somebody stole from you would you be happy if they offered to only give some of it back?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
enthusiast
Registered: 04/14/04
Posts: 399
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
Re: Jordan's King: U.S.-Arab Tension at Worst [Re: GazzBut]
    #2578322 - 04/19/04 04:52 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)


Dont make me laugh. Hamas offered ceasefires to aid the peace process. Israel continued bombing and killing. 3:1 on the kill ratio, or doesnt that count for anything with you? Both sides have held back the peace process at different times. Of late it is Israel who seem to be willfully destroying any chance of peace.

I agree with you that both sides have held back the peace process. However, if Arafat had accepted (or even counteroffered! even TRIED!) Sharons offer at Camp David, the entire thing would have, in theory, ended. Arafat was offered everything but TOTAL control of Jerusalem, and some locations that have strategic military importance (such as the golem hights, which the syrians used to launch missles from). That is, geez, probably 99.999999% of what the Palestinean movement allegdly wanted.


What was the general consensus amongst Palestinians regarding the deal put on the table? Or doesnt that matter? Would be interesting to know. If somebody stole from you would you be happy if they offered to only give some of it back?

Well, I can't be sure since I can't find and you didn't provide a source, but I think that the camp david accords were EXTREMELY arab friendly., and I'd think that the Palestinean people would be in support of them.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Why Arabs Lose Wars
( 1 2 all )
wingnutx 2,393 23 04/20/03 02:05 AM
by EchoVortex
* Faces of 553 Victims of Arab terror since Sept2000 Ellis Dee 961 18 07/04/02 11:39 AM
by Rono
* Bush says (Arafat) encourages terror. Ellis Dee 540 3 06/25/02 12:38 PM
by hongomon
* Israeli Cabinet votes to Expel Arafat in Theory
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
SquattingMarmot 3,909 92 09/17/03 03:07 PM
by shakta
* Arafat has suffered heart attack, admits aide wingnutx 429 2 10/08/03 04:40 PM
by wingnutx
* Arab Jews and the Borg
( 1 2 all )
Ed1 2,434 25 10/09/05 11:05 AM
by Los_Pepes
* Arab Americans are more highly evolved Los_Pepes 521 2 11/10/05 07:05 PM
by Los_Pepes
* Arab Americans support George Bush's WOT!!! Los_Pepes 532 1 11/11/05 05:36 PM
by Los_Pepes

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Prisoner#1, Enlil
1,504 topic views. 4 members, 2 guests and 7 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Mushrooms.com
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2016 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.125 seconds spending 0.003 seconds on 16 queries.