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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot?
    #2570204 - 04/17/04 04:04 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Since its establishment in 1967, Canada's Medicare system has earned the envy of the international community. Many Canadians see free public health care as the hallmark of what Pierre Elliott Trudeau called "The Just Society"

I wish, from the bottom of my heart, that people would realize how a strong dose of socialism in a capitalist economy goes so far to better the condition of the people.

Medicare, aka public health insurance, means freedom. No more insurance tied to employment, no more "sorry, your policy doesn't cover you for this",etc. It's comprehensive and universal.


In Canada, you can smoke all you want, drink all you want, snowboard like a maniac, whatever, you're covered.

Canada has a healthier population than private insurance USA.


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2570214 - 04/17/04 04:13 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Communist plot.

We should let "charity" pay for healthcare not "theft" :rolleyes:


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2570269 - 04/17/04 05:36 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Them insurance companies sure can be crooks sometimes.

Canada spends far less as a % of GDP on healthcare than the USA, yet fully covers everyone. It's a true success story of civilization in the 20th century.

Private insurance companies lobby constantly to destroy it.

People might not realize how much public health insurance is under attack in Canada. If we lose it, it will be illegal to get back again, thanks to NAFTA, which outlaws creating a government monopoly in any sector of the private marketplace. Only exisitng ones are aloud to continue.

This could, maybe, be the last days of public health insurance in Canada. Already the leader of the opposition is basically advocating tearing up the Canada Health Act, which outlaws most types of private health insurance. He is unlikely to win government, and there is a lot of support for medicare here, however, the unthinkable is becoming more and more thinkable a s time goes on.



--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


Edited by carbonhoots (04/17/04 05:39 AM)


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2570893 - 04/17/04 02:00 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

carbonhoots said:
I wish, from the bottom of my heart, that people would realize how a strong dose of socialism in a capitalist economy goes so far to better the condition of the people.



Medicare in the U.S. is headed for bankruptcy. The unfunded socialist liabilities of medicare and social security (due to the ageing of the baby boomers) will require massive tax increases if spending is not curtailed, some estimates put the future burden as high as 80% on the average working American. How will such a high tax rate better the condition of the people?

Consider this:
"...projected future spending across all federal programs plus the amount of debt currently held by the public exceeds projected future revenue by $43.4 trillion in present value, as of 2003. That imbalance is over 11 times the $3.8 trillion debt held by the public that the government officially reports. $35.5 trillion of this $43.4 trillion imbalance stems from Medicare (Parts A and B) alone while Social Security accounts for another $7.2 trillion."

"This calculation allows us to determine how much money the government must come up with immediately in order to put fiscal policy on a sustainable course. Alternatively, the government must make cuts or increase revenue totaling more than $43.4 trillion in future years so that, when discounted to today, the sum of those cuts and extra revenue equals $43.4 trillion."

"... the government could, in theory, put the country on a sustainable course by raising the payroll tax on all uncapped earnings by 16.3 percentage points starting in 2004 and lasting forever. That would forever more than double the amount of taxes that are already being paid by employees to the Social Security and Medicare systems and the dollar-for-dollar matching paid by their employers. But even this calculation is conservative in that it assumes that taxes are raised on uncapped earnings, which is a larger tax base than used by Social Security. If capped earnings were taxed, an even larger tax rate would be needed."

"Waiting just four years (until 2008) to implement this type of tax hike would require a permanent tax increase of 17.4 percentage points to close an even larger imbalance of $51.5 trillion. The fiscal imbalance grows by about $1.5 trillion each year between 2004 and 2008 (Table 1). That number is about ten times the deficit that the government officially projects for 2004. As with government debt, the fiscal imbalance grows with interest if no reforms are taken."

"Such tax increases, of course, would probably put our economy into a tailspin."

"...shutting down half of the rest of government forever is not enough to put the U.S. fiscal policy on a sustainable course."


* taken from the testimony of Kent Smetters to the U.S. Congress. Submitted on March 3, 2003, BEFORE Bush raised Medicare entitlements with a bill signed on Dec. 8, 2003.

Quote:

In Canada, you can smoke all you want, drink all you want, snowboard like a maniac, whatever, you're covered.



So the costs of irresponsible behavior are subsidized...

Quote:

Canada has a healthier population than private insurance USA.



The U.S. also has a higher percentage of third world immigrants and probably the worst dietary habits and most sedentary lifestyles in the western world.

I pay only $208 a month for health insurance for a family of four. This is less than what many people spend on weed every month... it's not that much.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (04/17/04 03:32 PM)


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2571120 - 04/17/04 03:07 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

This could, maybe, be the last days of public health insurance in Canada. Already the leader of the opposition is basically advocating tearing up the Canada Health Act, which outlaws most types of private health insurance.

An excellent idea. Canada's socialized medicine system is broken, and has been for a long time. Evolving posted some figures on Medicare -- Canada's system will be bankrupted long before Medicare will be.

The quality of health care delivered to Canadians is already a national disgrace, and gets worse each year.

pinky


--------------------


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: Phred]
    #2571399 - 04/17/04 05:30 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!


Socalism is the answer to all things!


--------------------


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2571435 - 04/17/04 05:47 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

carbonhoots said:

In Canada, you can smoke all you want, drink all you want, snowboard like a maniac, whatever, you're covered.




So if I choose to take care of myself I still have to pay for those who don't? sounds like a great deal to me.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: z@z.com]
    #2571455 - 04/17/04 05:55 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

yep. when that fat, cola swilling, fast-food and wonderbread eating woman down the street needs meds for the high cholestorol and diabetes her choices brought on her, you and i will get to foot the bill.

when old bill's black lungs finally sprout a tumor from a lifetime of cigarettes, who will pay for his hospital bills before he dies? why the ever benevolent tax-payer of course...

:thumbdown:

of course, it would make sense if healthcare was provided... but everyone was required to eat healthy, excercise, and refrain from using drugs, then this wouldn't be a problem... yes... everyone would be healthier, and have their health taken care of by the government... why we could be the healthiest society on earth! everyone with a clean bill of health! think of that!

:wink:


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OfflineMorningStar
Stranger
Registered: 01/30/04
Posts: 2
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: ]
    #2571542 - 04/17/04 06:40 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

When one pays a private company for insurance, part of that payment is profit for the owners of that company. This means there is a large amount of money (from the fact that insurance is a very profitable business) which is not being used for health benefits. Of course all the advertising one sees is against public health insurance, the people who are rich now are the ones who stand to lose from public health care.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: MorningStar]
    #2571719 - 04/17/04 07:41 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Hey, it's Lucifer.


Wassup lou!


--------------------


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: MorningStar]
    #2571953 - 04/17/04 08:49 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

MorningStar said:
When one pays a private company for insurance, part of that payment is profit for the owners of that company. This means there is a large amount of money (from the fact that insurance is a very profitable business) which is not being used for health benefits...



So, all the politicians and bureaucrats don't skim anything off on government programs? Ever heard of the term 'pork barrel?' Government agencies are notoriously top heavy with bureaucracy and inefficient in their allocation of resources, this is what happens when you don't have to satisfy the consumer but are legally allowed to pick his pocket no matter how shoddy your product or service. Please tell us all how efficient the postal services is, tell us how good the military is at getting value for your tax dollars.

Do you know what is probably the single greatest expense for a doctor or hospital? Malpractice insurance - well, at least it is for the doctors I know. Do you know what would go a long way towards lowering or controlling health care costs? Tort reform, but don't hold your breath waiting for a political system controlled by lawyers to do anything meaningful about that.

How about a free market in medicine? Nope, the pharmaceutical companies (read: 'big campaign donors') and the FDA both want to say how things should be run.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: ]
    #2571993 - 04/17/04 09:05 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

yep. when that fat, cola swilling, fast-food and wonderbread eating woman down the street needs meds for the high cholestorol and diabetes her choices brought on her, you and i will get to foot the bill.

when old bill's black lungs finally sprout a tumor from a lifetime of cigarettes, who will pay for his hospital bills before he dies? why the ever benevolent tax-payer of course...


While there is some difference in costs between systems, those that live healthy lifestyles pay proportionally more for healthcare to subsidize the abusers either way.

This is the same with private auto insurance. Having never filed a claim in 30 years, my insurance is still gougingly high because of uninsured transients in Las Vegas. Yup, I am paying for the irresponsible ones.

Anyone want to move to another planet with me and start afresh?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: Swami]
    #2572007 - 04/17/04 09:12 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Anyone want to move to another planet with me and start afresh?




Why?  2012 is just around the corner.  :nut:


--------------------
I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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Anonymous

Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: Swami]
    #2572012 - 04/17/04 09:13 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

that's true...


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OfflineMorningStar
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Registered: 01/30/04
Posts: 2
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: Evolving]
    #2572425 - 04/18/04 12:13 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

As for your comment on malpratice insurance, I agree that it is a big scam. I think that all insurance should be public. I also never said the current government was the ideal place to enact that.
I urge all who are dissatisfied with the way things are, to, at the very least, spend some time thinking about what would be better.


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: Evolving]
    #2572648 - 04/18/04 01:51 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

What are you trying to prove with your figures?

That universal health coverage is just impossible for USA?

That it is inevitable that some people will be written up as YOYO MF? (your on your own mother fucker)

People have been coming up with these facts and figures to prove socialized health insurance will bankrupt the country for 40 years now. Those kinds of people are the same sort who say that CO2 emissions don't cause global warming. They are paid well to play Devil's advocate. Before Canada actually implemented the law, those people said newborn babies would be owned by the government if there was public health insurance. Fortunatly, back in reality, some people knew what was going on.

Why do some people think they need a middleman, who makes boatlaods of money, to provide them with health insurance? Why not cut out the middleman and spend those dollars on patients and technology?

Do you and your family have fully comprehensive coverage for your 208 per month? Do you have any restrictions? Can you see a doctor out of state no problem? All that? How about a deductible?

I like my health insurance written into law rather than the fine print of some insurance policy. And, God forbid, if I'm ever down on my luck, I'd like to have the same care as the next guy with fat wallet.

It's called being a member of a civilized society.


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


Edited by carbonhoots (04/18/04 02:15 AM)


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: MorningStar]
    #2572760 - 04/18/04 02:50 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

There is also competition in a private system. If company A outperforms company B guess which company makes more money? Government has no incentive to keep costs low. Just look at the overhead in all of our current government programs. To assume it would be any different in healthcare seems foolish to me.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: ]
    #2572821 - 04/18/04 03:36 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

yep. when that fat, cola swilling, fast-food and wonderbread eating woman down the street needs meds for the high cholestorol and diabetes her choices brought on her...when old bill's black lungs finally sprout a tumor from a lifetime of cigarettes,

Do either of these people actually exist anywhere but your imagination?


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2572824 - 04/18/04 03:38 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

It's called being a member of a civilized society.

A civilised society?

COMMIE!! :whoa:

:laugh:


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,718
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Medicare...A burden removed, or a communist plot? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2573178 - 04/18/04 06:13 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Do either of these people actually exist anywhere but your imagination?



What an incredibly stupid question.

They exist in droves. Right alongside those who drink themselves to death, those who go hiking without the proper equipment, those who ride without helmets and many more people who bring their misery on themselves.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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