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 ding
a human
Registered: 04/16/04
Posts: 14
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
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 Strong antirecreational bias? 
#2569467 - 04/16/04 08:50 PM (20 years, 4 days ago) |
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I seem to notice a very strong antirecreational bias on these forums (as well as other similar ones). Sure, there are many recreational trip reports, but when posting on the forums, most people automatically expect others to accuse them of using psychedelics recreationally and internalize these accusations and also, start to be on the lookout of others who they think are using psychedelics recreationally and joke/tease/accuse them of it, even though I'm pretty sure a good number of these very same people have used these drugs recreationally themselves. People are always on the defensive about being accused of recreational use and come up with all sorts of justifications for their behavior (spirituality, self-therapy, personal growth, creativity, etc.) and ever being on the watchout for how often others trip (too much, and they're "drug abusers"/addicts and "dumb, wild hedonists guilty of the grave sin of going for kicks" while, we, of course, know much better and are wiser and goal oriented and "above" them, despite having used drugs recreationally ourselves!!!). I'm not saying psychedelic drugs don't have other uses. They do. But why such a strong antirecreational bias? Is it a legacy of the Puritanical/Victorian era with its strong work ethic?
It's like cultural attitudes towards sex, I think. People go about having affairs, watching pornography, masturbating in private, constantly surrounded by sexual plays/novels/movies, while publicly saying sex is not for recreation or fun, but for procreation within the context of marriage and then listing goals like procreation and love and intimacy within marriage (and also long-term relationships, if less Puritanical) (I'm not saying procreation, love and intimacy aren't worthwhile goals, but all too often, they're just used as rationalizations) as the real reason for sex and accusing each other of being sleazy, promiscuous, sluts, etc. ...
I mean, wouldn't it be better if we could just come out and say "I took psychedelic drugs for recreation, fun, experiential enhancement, for the hell of it, for kicks, etc and what's wrong with that?" Actually, even the last part reveals some guilt. It would be much better if we could just mention as-a-matter-of-factly about recreational use and not have to feel defensive about it or go about accusing each other of doing things we ourselves have done in private... After all, isn't one of the common goals of self-help fun and happiness? I mean, what's REALLY wrong with recreational use?
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mockeylock
head
Registered: 02/07/04
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 Re: Strong antirecreational bias? [Re: ding]
#2569488 - 04/16/04 08:55 PM (20 years, 4 days ago) |
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And hello to you too! Welcome! And....what?
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Euphoria
watch theweatherchange...
Registered: 08/04/03
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Re: Strong antirecreational bias? [Re: mockeylock]
#2569620 - 04/16/04 09:32 PM (20 years, 4 days ago) |
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Hell of a first post, ding! I sympathize and agree with most of what you are saying. I think what comes across as people being against recreational use is in fact people responding to the type of user that is irresponsible.
The type of user that eats 50 hits of acid then comes here looking for help. The type of user that says eating mushrooms is 'l33t r0ck0rz'. You get the idea.
Surely when I consume mushrooms I'm not doing it entirely for spiritual reasons (that is a significant, enjoyable, unavoidable part of it, though) but I would consider myself a responsible user.
Maybe I'm off the mark - good post regardless and welcome!
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ding
a human
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Re: Strong antirecreational bias? [Re: Euphoria]
#2569658 - 04/16/04 09:48 PM (20 years, 4 days ago) |
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Thanks for the welcomes.
Actually, I was searching and reading lots of posts about tolerance/cross tolerance here and I guess this might have skewed my observations somewhat, not to mention there's another forum I participate in which definitely has a much stronger and contemptuous antirecreational bias, with people frequently mentioning psychedelics are sacred and recreational use is "disrespectful" of their sacredness.
Still, I've noticed quite a number of accusations here about recreational use after someone merely mentioned that he/she takes psychedelic drugs frequently, without any additional information or giving any hint of being irresponsible/addicted.
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PsychosMind
One of thosefriendly crazies
Registered: 04/13/04
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Re: Strong antirecreational bias? [Re: ding]
#2569703 - 04/16/04 10:05 PM (20 years, 3 days ago) |
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I think that doing anything too much is bound be a bad thing, hell if i eat too many carrots i'm gonna die of malnutrition. But I think it all depends on the person, if they can eat mushrooms often and still lead a normal life and it doesn't interfere with there social and work life then it shouldn't be a problem. If someone is aware of the consequences and isn't addicted then i don't see why someone should look down on another person, it really shouldn't be our place to judge someone for why they use a substance. 
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I'm one of those hugging crazies, as opposed to the stabbin' crazies
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gotmagog
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Re: Strong antirecreational bias? [Re: ding]
#2570314 - 04/17/04 05:03 AM (20 years, 3 days ago) |
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Yeah, nice post.
I wonder if people(including myself  ) who say they take psychedelics entirely for spiritual purposes, really do so, or just say this to avoid the guilt feeling of being a hedonistic drug user?
Well , it is all a personal choice. I have decided for myself that I smoke weed or drink beer occasionally just for fun.
When i shroom or smoke salvia it may be also fun, but I really do it for the purpose of geting understanding of my life. If I don't have this higher purpose I will almost feel bad doing those things, like a child playing with serious things which it does not understand. And if I go with the mindset that I am doing useful learning, even a bad trip might seem later a good thing, while if I want just 6 hours of fun a bad trip might seem horribly wrong.
And finally , what is this other forum where people are so strongly against recreational use? I am curious about their ideas, can u please give me the link?
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 Krishna
कृष्ण,LOL
Registered: 05/08/03
Posts: 23,285
Loc: oakland
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Re: Strong antirecreational bias? [Re: ding]
#2570340 - 04/17/04 05:30 AM (20 years, 3 days ago) |
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I believe in the use of psychedelics for two purposes, and two distinct purposes.
The first might be called "recreational" - this to me is taking some acid or mushrooms and seeing a concert. They vastly increase the aesthetic value of such a show (especially with the  ) - and for certain bands ( ) they are integrated very much with the music.
The second would be the "spiritual" use - using psychedelics as a tool for spiritual insight, for meditation, etc. While I think that people should be free to do what they wish with their bodies, I think that this type of use must be emphasised if drug policies towards psychedelics are ever to change.
And to gotmagog - read anything by Terrance McKenna - he is 100% against the "recreational" use of psychedelics.
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tezcatlipoca
but you can callme tez
Registered: 10/26/03
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Re: Strong antirecreational bias? [Re: ding]
#2570621 - 04/17/04 09:59 AM (20 years, 3 days ago) |
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i'm not down with the "recreational" use of psychedelics, so i suppose i would fit the niche you've laid down.
personally, i see recreational use as an abuse of the plant -- abuse as in "the incorrect relationship" not as in personal substance abuse. in other words, it seems as if recreation use leads to taking for granted the true spritual power of these plants.
it's almost an insult to the mushroom -- a divine tool at our fingertips -- to use it for the "buzz" or to make your shitty house parties seem better, rather than what it was truely intended for, that is, an aide for us to reach the higher planes of consciousness, if i may use such a cliche.
it's like someone taking their aston martin vanquish and putting a big KENWOOD banner on it, or plastering it with Fox Racing stickers.
sorry for the poor english today. my brain is liquid at the moment. it will take a day to re-congeal.
in other words, there is so much to be learned from mushrooms (or most other psychedelics) that not only is it a waste to simply use them for their asthetic value, but it's an insult to the plant and to the true practitioners of the plant's religion, as well.
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Re: Strong antirecreational bias? [Re: tezcatlipoca]
#2570649 - 04/17/04 10:15 AM (20 years, 3 days ago) |
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Some drugs are meant to be used recreationally, others mixed, and others spiritually. Alcohol is definitely a recreational drug, marijuana mixed depending on the circumstance, and drugs like mushrooms, while used recreationally, are meant more to be spiritually IME. I don't like it when people abuse the mushroom and take it twice a week just to get fucked up, if you want to get fucked up drink some alcohol. Acid is mixed, but leans towards spiritual, and drugs like DMT and salvia are completely spiritual, I don't see how anyone would use them recreationally.
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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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rdnp2035
Stranger
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 Re: Strong antirecreational bias? [Re: ding]
#2570785 - 04/17/04 11:17 AM (20 years, 3 days ago) |
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I think part of the anti-recreational bias is due to a different understanding of what psychedelics can do. I get the feeling that people who use psychedelics with the primary intent of just having fun have never had a super deep experience with them and don't fully understand what these spiritual trip preachers are talking about. When you stop watching movies and talking to people and such and really focus on the experience, things get different. I look at it in terms of value, as an easy way to consider it. Do I want to eat 3 grams of shrooms and go to a party or something where I will feel great and see trails. Or do I want to eat 3 grams, close my eyes and focus, which will lead me to something of a mystical experience. Once you go mystical, the party attitude dosen't seem very interesting, almost a waste. I think the bridge between these two stances is participating in creative activity. You can have fun and have a deep experience on psychedelics by playing music or making art or dancing. I play guitar and I go much deeper by playing it on a trip than I normally do just laying there. Personally, I think that's the ultimate trip (sort of), playing music on psychedelics.
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DoktarDemento
Alien WitchDoctor
Registered: 02/05/04
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Re: Strong antirecreational bias? [Re: ding]
#2571340 - 04/17/04 02:53 PM (20 years, 3 days ago) |
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My own bias is in regards to certain sacrements which nearly destroyed me when I "got high", just for the fun of it. certainly many substances may well be great for shits and giggles, but I personally have been kicked in my ass by the dear little ones for using them so,a nd i don't think they much appreciate it.
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ooh eeh ah ah ah ting tang walla balla bing bang ooh ah
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psikooz
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Re: Strong antirecreational bias? [Re: DoktarDemento]
#2571398 - 04/17/04 03:30 PM (20 years, 3 days ago) |
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When i first tried musrhooms i did it recreationalaly, but during the trip i discovered that there were underlying reasons behind it. I was seeking for understanding and the truth. So to this day i use them spiritualy, while at the same time having a little fun of course.
PEACE
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TrippinNinjaBuddha
ShroominSamurai
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Re: Strong antirecreational bias? [Re: ding]
#2571569 - 04/17/04 04:53 PM (20 years, 3 days ago) |
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I have no problem with people using mushrooms for any reason. You can't deny it, mushrooms are amazing. If you want to have a fun time and see some crazy things and you happen to come out of it in a super positive mindset, curious about buddhism, curious about whatever... that's great! If you don't come out of it feeling any desire for something deeper, well at least you are learning how fucking stupid some drug policies are.
I agree with Krishna in that if we ever want to deschedule mushrooms, the spiritual side would have to be emphasized more than the 'dude, I totally just got fucked UP for like, 4 hours!' part. I think mushrooms can definitely lead you somewhere deeper, but can also be an fun, positive, purely recreational experience.
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Jumped in a river, what did I see?
Black eyed angels swimming with me
Moon full of stars and astral cars, all the figures I used to see
All my lovers were there with me
All my past and all my futures
We went to heaven in a little rowboat
There was nothing to fear and nothing to doubt
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Noviseer
Percussion isFree
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Re: Strong antirecreational bias? [Re: ding]
#2572967 - 04/18/04 02:34 AM (20 years, 2 days ago) |
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Mushrooms are fun! Sure, I've had amazing times on them that have change the course of my life, my world view, conception of the divine, etc. But at the root of it all, and in lower doses, fuck, its just fun to take a few mushies  I hear what you are saying. You've got to be sympathetic to the people that are so quick to criticize recreational use, however. Throughout human history, mushrooms and other psychedelics have been used as a shamanic/sacramental instrument. Now we've got a bunch of kids eating them because they're relegated to the status of "just another illegal drug" in our culture. If this was happening to your personal sacrament, you'd be pissed to. Its like if a catholic saw a bunch of stoners munching on the communion wafers like popcorn 'cause they taste good' or drinking the blood of christ cause it gets you way drunk. Thats where that comes from.
my own opinion: mushrooms are a serious thing, a sacred thing. but that doesn't mean they're not fun. If I want a spiritual experience, I'll take a higher dose, by myself, and the trip overwhelmes me and lets me see a bit more of the picture, the beauty that mushies allow you a fleeting glimpse of. On the other hand, i'll pop a gram or two with some friends and go surfing, and have a purely FUN experience. They're a great ally: they can do both 
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namaste said:
no flamz in da ODD, if you got nothing to contribute then keep yo lips zipped
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MOTH
Wild Woman
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Re: Strong antirecreational bias? [Re: Noviseer]
#2573110 - 04/18/04 03:16 AM (20 years, 2 days ago) |
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I completely agree, Noviseer.
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vladk
OM Shanti
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Re: Strong antirecreational bias? [Re: ding]
#2578184 - 04/19/04 02:14 PM (20 years, 1 day ago) |
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To me the only problem with recreational use is that in most cases those are the people giving drugs a bad name. People who don't understand what they are doing and just want to get f*cked up on something are the ones the real 'drug war' is against. Sensible and responsible use of mushrooms and such is good for recreational use because no matter what there will be more to it than just stupid fun and maybe you will learn something.
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Ekstaza
stranger than most
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Re: Strong antirecreational bias? [Re: ding]
#2578509 - 04/19/04 03:36 PM (20 years, 1 day ago) |
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There are so many points brought up in this thread that I'd like to discuss but I'm not sure that I'll remember them all.
My main issue with what some of you are saying is that I get that same ol' feeling of "You got to do it my way or you ain't doing it right". This crap is rediculous. It's been handed down to us from the beginning of time. Have fun my way or no way. Worship my way or no way. Have sex my way or no way. Think my way or no way. Well, I just want you all to know that you don't have to do anything someone else's way or no way. Do it you're own way. There's not even an 'or' in there. If your way is to follow the leader, then do it that way. Too many wars have been fought over one guy saying that his way is the only right way to do anything.
With everyone running around talking about mushrooms having some ultimate sacredness, I?m left wondering how long it?s going to be before there are fines against the using of the shrooms name in vain. IMHO, there are no sacred cows of the drug world. There are some that are worse for you than others, but I don?t put any up on a pedestal above all else.
Mushrooms are wonderful at home, in the woods, or in the club. They don?t penalize me for wanting to have fun. Why should I have a bad trip if I intended to have fun? This mentality comes from the ever present leftovers of a puritanical past. What is this, psychedelic entrapment?
I always begin any trip knowing that I?m doing it to have fun. Sometimes I notice things along the way. One of the main themes that has become evident during many many mushroom journeys is that we should all enjoy one another. During just about every trip I?ve had, that message has been present. The message is that I should be having fun. That what I?m doing is good and right.
All of that having been said, I now want you all to know that each and everyone of you have the right to disapprove of my way of thinking in any way that you please. And you know what, you won?t be wrong.
P.S. The drug war doesn?t care about why any of us are doing drugs. The original reasons behind drug prohibition are because drugs were used for spiritual reasons. It has only been about health and social issues for a very short time. It has always been political, though.
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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.
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gnrm23
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Re: Strong antirecreational bias? [Re: ding]
#2581652 - 04/20/04 07:41 AM (20 years, 14 hours ago) |
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jonathan ott called it "ludibund" (Homo ludens = man the playful)
but, be warned - while it is permissible to be taking these powerful substances "for shits & giggles" --- well, one may be planning to have a fun-filled day, & somehow end up taking their soul out & examining it for hours...
& as wasson pointed out about his first mushroom trip (at a velada conduct by maria sabina in the mid-50s):
" 'ecstacy' is not 'fun' "
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old enough to know better
not old enough to care
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MrMolotov
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Re: Strong antirecreational bias? [Re: gnrm23]
#5180723 - 01/14/06 04:19 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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I find that anytime i use any drug its mostly for the experience and chance to learn new things but i also love the great feelings.
I smoke pot every day at least 2 or 3 times yet i don't spend all my money on it, i don't do it for shits and giggles, and its always ingested with a certain level of respect more of a kind of meditation just sit on my bathroom floor eyes closed take a deep hit from my vaporizer and just hold it and lay down for as long as i can hold it then exhale slowly and breathe in and just feel so alive,spiritual, and relaxed excellent! and even though i smoke i still have a 3.7 GPA yet those around me(parents) don't understand just how much i love and respect weed for how it makes me think and its just a great thing.
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OI OI OI
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kaniz
That one, overthere.
Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 4,166
Loc: Ontario
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Re: Strong antirecreational bias? [Re: MrMolotov]
#5180782 - 01/14/06 04:40 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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My introduction to drugs and psychedelics was largely a recreational interest in the substance. I wont bash anyone for using them just for the recreation of it - as that is how I first started to use them myself.
However, its not so much the recreational use that bothers me, its the irresponsible use, and disrespectful use - although, some say using for any recreational purpose is disrespectful, they have the right to hold that opinion.
Its when you hear stories of "OMG, I hate 6 grams, then I pissed on a cop and he chased me, and OMG!?X it was FUCKED UP and then I smoked some salvia and totally freaked out and ran down the street screaming and ...." - those are the types of users which give all drug use a bad name.
There are ways to use drugs in a way to reduce the harm, minimize risk and in a responsible way that does not give them a bad name. The people who just use them to 'get as fucked up as possible' end up in hospital because they ran into traffic while tripping or get thrown in jail for being an ass in public - is what is wrong.
You know, mushrooms are great for a laugh - a nice way to add some social lubrication to the night, to enjoy your music a bit more - to find humor in the simple things. As powerful and profound as mushrooms can be - I do think that their 'recreational and fun' side shouldn?t be ignored either, as long as it's done in a responsible way.
Mushrooms have a playful spirit - to ignore it, is to not give full respect to it
However, Mushrooms, and Psychedelics in general - can also be FAR more profound, and I think it's a shame if people treat them 'just as a way to have fun', they are missing out on some potentially life-changing experiences (for the better).
As 'fun' as they can be - they are also missing out on a HUGE potential for them.
I have no problem with the recreational use of them, as long as its done in a safe and responsible way.
That being said - I've found that the more 'profound' trips I've had on mushrooms and LSD, where the purpose of the trip has been for reflective/insightful reasons, the less desire I have to do them for purely recreational reasons.
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