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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Whats your favorite Political Disinformation? [Re: krypto2000]
    #25687428 - 12/18/18 03:16 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
So you really think a Russian sharing this conservative American article on Instagram is an "especially potent weapon in the Russian social media arsenal"?



The way I read the post's sentence is that "they were sharing this article on instagram, [instagram which has become] a very powerful weapon used by russia..." They are calling instagram the popular weapon, not the specific article being shared on Instagram.



I see what you're saying, but I think posting a picture to Instagram isn't nearly as damaging as this wording implies.

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
What's your point, that this isn't a problem and we shouldn't talk about it because there are more influental things out there?



YES!  You finally interpreted one of my posts correctly.  :thumbup:

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
What do you think incurs more fear in the public?

1.) ISIS

2.) Some pathetic crack head in baltimore with a 9mm?

I guess we should just not care if crack heads have illegal firearms bc ISIS is more of a threat? Do you see hoe that works? It doesn't.



That may be a good example.  Why should anyone care about a crack head in Baltimore with a 9mm, unless there's more to the story?


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Whats your favorite Political Disinformation? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25687434 - 12/18/18 03:18 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

krypto2000 said:
I am confused. You're ssying thst tue eashington post is disinformation because they call out disinformation by others?



Yes.  It's the media's job to verify that the information they post is truthful, and not just to repeat establishment propaganda.




Right, but to what extent is that viable/realistic? To some extent we have to rely on an appeal to authority for information. So long as the source is reported, even if that source is labelled anonymous, I'd say they did their due diligence. From there it should be up to the reader to weight the credibility of their source, it's simply their job to report the news and verify that it is factual as the reported it.


Quote:

krypto2000 said:
So you assume you are correct and consider it true/information but did not even prove to yourself that they were incorrect yet that constitutes an example of them spreading disinformationto you? Even if you're right here I don't even see how they are spreading disinformation in that scenario, but if you're wrong here then you on the other hand are in fact spreading disinformation.



No.  I didn't say a thing about whether the news article or the Instagram post is true or not.  I'm saying that a news article on a popular news site is more damaging than some Russian posting a picture to Instagram, and that calling the Instagram post an "especially potent weapon in the Russian social media arsenal" is just plain stupid.




As I was trying to explain and koods just said you're misinterpreting this. They are not saying the specific post is a powerful weapon, they are saying the platform is. It was worded ambiguously so I can see how you misinterpreted that.


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Re: Whats your favorite Political Disinformation? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25687442 - 12/18/18 03:21 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

krypto2000 said:
What do you think incurs more fear in the public?

1.) ISIS

2.) Some pathetic crack head in baltimore with a 9mm?

I guess we should just not care if crack heads have illegal firearms bc ISIS is more of a threat? Do you see hoe that works? It doesn't.



That may be a good example.  Why should anyone care about a crack head in Baltimore with a 9mm, unless there's more to the story?




1.) Because they live in Baltimore and it directly effects them

2.) Because it's a problem not local to baltimore, I'm sure there are crackheads with illegal 9mms in our cities too.

3.) I have never seen an ISIS member in my city, or any of our cities, so how is that a large threat?

4.) We can confront multiple problems at once, we shouldn't ignore every issue that comes down the pipeline until the previous one has been dealt with, we would never get anything done.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Whats your favorite Political Disinformation? [Re: krypto2000]
    #25687498 - 12/18/18 03:43 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
That may be a good example.  Why should anyone care about a crack head in Baltimore with a 9mm, unless there's more to the story?



Because they live in Baltimore and it directly effects them



How so?


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Whats your favorite Political Disinformation? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25687503 - 12/18/18 03:47 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

How do crack heads with illegal firearms effect the locals? Do you think they have the firearms because they're collectors and gun connoisseurs?

edit: You're getting fairly off topic at this point too. You're nit picking my example to illustrate a point, argue against the merits of the point, not potential flaws in the example.


Edited by krypto2000 (12/18/18 03:49 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Whats your favorite Political Disinformation? [Re: krypto2000] * 1
    #25687516 - 12/18/18 03:52 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Agreed - let's go back to the original point.  A Russian posting a photo on Instagram of a point already printed in the news is an absolute nothing burger.

Edit:  Take a look at the poltical cartoons thread.  Deceptive shit is posted there all the time.  Maybe a Russian saw one of our posts there and decided to repost it on their Instagram, Facebook, or Twitter account.  As a result we're now calling those platforms "especially potent weapons in the Russian social media arsenal".  Ridiculous if you ask me.


--------------------
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Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (12/18/18 04:46 PM)


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Whats your favorite Political Disinformation? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25687633 - 12/18/18 04:55 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

I think we're arguing two different points now though.

1.) Should deceptive advertising in politics be legal? Is it ethical?

2.) Is it okay for foreigners to do so.

I would argue both 1 and 2 should be illegal if it can be properly legislated and controlled. Whether it can be is another can of worms.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Whats your favorite Political Disinformation? [Re: krypto2000]
    #25687660 - 12/18/18 05:14 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
1.) Should deceptive advertising in politics be legal?

2.) Is it okay for foreigners to do so.

I would argue both 1 and 2 should be illegal if it can be properly legislated and controlled.



Yes I actually agree with you.

But the only organization accused of being a troll farm and paying for ads that I'm aware of is Concord Management, who is currently fighting the charges, and keeps catching Mueller off guard (Mueller has to keep saying he can't share the evidence because it's a secret!)

Russians don't have to pay to post things on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.  Should posts like the one above be illegal if it wasn't paid for?  Should we ban certain countries from posting on the Shroomery?

I don't think so.


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Whats your favorite Political Disinformation? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25687669 - 12/18/18 05:19 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Also cambridge analytica, we're not hearing enough about them, but they're at least as much of a problem as the russian's I'd imagine.

I think the problem here is how do you determine who is a troll and who is not? Do we ban anyone that has the signature of a troll even if it means some honest people get caught in the net? How would such banning operate? I definitely do not think it should be controlled within the internet itself (eg internet ID) and instead controlled instead on the ground level (Eg. you don't lock down the internet to prevent hacking, you arrest people who hack).

edit: Here's a proposal. We issue fines for trolling and the troll must be proven to a court to have had a "reasonable impact" whatever that may be determined to be. Perhaps additional fines if the troll personally profitted off of it.

So if a troll campaign can be linked to a political candidate that candidate is held responsible (or wherever the money/decisions came from). This would eliminate/protect petty trolling, if XUL decided to flame us he's not having a major impact on politics and thus isn't a concern/subject to fine.

This idea sounded a little unrealistic/absurd to me at first but then I thought about music piracy. If the RIAA can sue people for $10,000 for pirating a single song, and our ISPs cooperate in that racket, then surely something like this is viable when it actually has wide spread socioeconomic implications; any politician who argues otherwise is probably either naive or an outright liar who is in on it.


Edited by krypto2000 (12/18/18 05:24 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Whats your favorite Political Disinformation? [Re: krypto2000] * 1
    #25687752 - 12/18/18 06:02 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I actually agree with you.

But the only organization accused of being a troll farm and paying for ads that I'm aware of is Concord Management...



Also cambridge analytica, we're not hearing enough about them, but they're at least as much of a problem as the russian's I'd imagine.



That was a British company that used Facebook data for targeting ads to people.  Obama did the same.  The reason Cambridge Analytica was controversial is because of the way they acquired their data.  They had nothing to do with Russia.

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
I think the problem here is how do you determine who is a troll and who is not? Do we ban anyone that has the signature of a troll even if it means some honest people get caught in the net? How would such banning operate? I definitely do not think it should be controlled within the internet itself (eg internet ID) and instead controlled instead on the ground level (Eg. you don't lock down the internet to prevent hacking, you arrest people who hack).

edit: Here's a proposal. We issue fines for trolling and the troll must be proven to a court to have had a "reasonable impact" whatever that may be determined to be.



Again, I don't think trolling should be illegal.  That's a price of free speech.  I was agreeing that paid political ads could/should be limited and perhaps paying people to troll should also be illegal.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Whats your favorite Political Disinformation? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25687767 - 12/18/18 06:10 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Right, I agree. I wasn't saying CA was Russian, just that they are another prominent player that this is applicable too. Afaik Obama simply used Facebook to run an ad campaign, he didn't use deceptive/false ads or trolls in thr guise of humans.

I don't think trolling should be illegal either. I don't think the issue is trolling per say. It's kind of like free speech vs fraud, if you use your speech and speech alone to deceive and fraud someone that doesn't make your fraud protected, it just means you used a legal tool to do illegal things. Similarly it's not the trolling or even the manipulation thst is the issue, it's the intended outcome of the trolling and manipulation that should be the issue.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Whats your favorite Political Disinformation? [Re: krypto2000]
    #25687834 - 12/18/18 06:39 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
Right, I agree. I wasn't saying CA was Russian, just that they are another prominent player that this is applicable too. Afaik Obama simply used Facebook to run an ad campaign, he didn't use deceptive/false ads or trolls in thr guise of humans.



Did Cambridge Analytica use deceptive/false ads or trolls?

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
I don't think trolling should be illegal either. I don't think the issue is trolling per say. It's kind of like free speech vs fraud, if you use your speech and speech alone to deceive and fraud someone that doesn't make your fraud protected, it just means you used a legal tool to do illegal things. Similarly it's not the trolling or even the manipulation thst is the issue, it's the intended outcome of the trolling and manipulation that should be the issue.



I'm not sure I agree.  Let's look at the example above.  Someone posted a news article explaining how he believed Mueller worked with radical Islamists.  Kind of true, but kind of deceptive.  Allowed speech, or not?  I tend to favor the side of allowed if there is any doubt; hence I think that Instagram post above is fair game.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Whats your favorite Political Disinformation? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25688043 - 12/18/18 08:14 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

I'm not actually sure what cambridge did with the users data actually, that's a very good question. There are two main things they did that I take issue with.

First they, imo, fraudulently stole Facebook user data to target them. Second is they, oer their ceos own admission, engage in illegal activities such as black mail, extortion, etc to sway elections.

To the best of my knowledge it's never actually been said, nor have I even seen speculation, with what they did with the user data. We can assume they did not acquired 87 million users data simply for the hell of it. Maybe they did work with Russia for all I know (they did have a lose coordination with them in some way, directly or indirectly, as they requeested first access to the emails from wikileaks).

As to the Instagram thing, I don't think the question of "is this allowed speech or not" is a relevant question to ask. The focus shouldn't be on any one post, it should be who is posting these things and what is their intent? If their primary intent is to willfully deceive the public for personal benefit then I think that should be deemed illegal(edit* and it should have a significsntly wide impact).

There's going to be a lot of gray area there and there is no fine line to draw. If I pay you 20$ to spend an hour on reddit posting on conservstive subreddits thst Trump is a pedo have I substantially effected anything (or even decieved anyone? There's real evidence he is a pedo after all)? No, that would be hard to argue. If I operate a troll farm with a 5 million monthly budget on the other hand tasked eith doing similar things have I affected anything? Yeah, I m think it's safe to conclude I have or it wouldn't be worth investing millions of dollars. So where's the line between two people and 100$ and an army with multi millions? That's not so cut and dry.


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Re: Whats your favorite Political Disinformation? [Re: krypto2000]
    #25688075 - 12/18/18 08:29 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Speaking of Cambridge  nvm the company is owned by a foreign government..

A mystery foreign company has just been ordered to comply with a mueller subpoena. Not saying it’s cambridge, just it could be. This is the case they closed the courthouse floor for last week
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/world/national-security/prosecutors-win-court-fight-over-secret-subpoena-of-a-foreign-company/2018/12/18/b56dafac-0315-11e9-b5df-5d3874f1ac36_story.html

Quote:

federal appeals court ruled Tuesday against a foreign company embroiled in a secret subpoena fight believed to involve special counsel Robert S. Mueller III’s far-reaching investigation of Russian interference in the 2016 election.

For weeks, the court had kept secret the nature of the fight over evidence, leading to a guessing game about who the secret witness is — a government official, a private citizen or a company.

Officials have not confirmed who the prosecutors on the case are, but on the day the court order under appeal was issued, two lawyers were observed exiting a sealed hearing before Chief Judge Beryl A. Howell of the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia — who oversees grand-jury proceedings — along with five prosecutors with the special counsel’s office, including appellate specialist Michael Dreeben.

Siding with prosecutors Tuesday, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit issued a vaguely worded judgment that revealed a few new details but still kept the key facts under seal.

“The grand jury seeks information from a corporation owned by Country A,” the three-page decision said. The company had sought to quash the subpoena by arguing it is immune from such demands under the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act and because complying with the subpoena would cause the company to violate its own domestic laws.





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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Whats your favorite Political Disinformation? [Re: koods]
    #25688105 - 12/18/18 08:45 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Cambridge Anslytica is actually owned by a foreign government though. They're based in the UK, not the US. It could be them.


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Re: Whats your favorite Political Disinformation? [Re: krypto2000]
    #25688123 - 12/18/18 08:56 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Owned?


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Re: Whats your favorite Political Disinformation? [Re: koods]
    #25688143 - 12/18/18 09:08 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Errr.. you know what I mean. Not owned, but resides in.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Whats your favorite Political Disinformation? [Re: krypto2000]
    #25688171 - 12/18/18 09:26 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
To the best of my knowledge it's never actually been said, nor have I even seen speculation, with what they did with the user data. We can assume they did not acquired 87 million users data simply for the hell of it.



Of course we know what they did with the data.  They profiled individuals in order to target them with personalised political advertisements.

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
Maybe they did work with Russia for all I know (they did have a lose coordination with them in some way, directly or indirectly, as they requeested first access to the emails from wikileaks).



That's highly unlikely, given the investigation looked very closely for illegal ties to Russia and didn't find any.

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
As to the Instagram thing, I don't think the question of "is this allowed speech or not" is a relevant question to ask. The focus shouldn't be on any one post, it should be who is posting these things and what is their intent? If their primary intent is to willfully deceive the public for personal benefit then I think that should be deemed illegal(edit* and it should have a significsntly wide impact).

There's going to be a lot of gray area there and there is no fine line to draw. If I pay you 20$ to spend an hour on reddit posting on conservstive subreddits thst Trump is a pedo have I substantially effected anything (or even decieved anyone? There's real evidence he is a pedo after all)? No, that would be hard to argue. If I operate a troll farm with a 5 million monthly budget on the other hand tasked eith doing similar things have I affected anything? Yeah, I m think it's safe to conclude I have or it wouldn't be worth investing millions of dollars. So where's the line between two people and 100$ and an army with multi millions? That's not so cut and dry.



Once again, I think foreigners have every right to post whatever they like on the Internet.  It's when someone pays them to do it that I can see a possible problem.

We don't know if anyone was paid to post that instagram message, do we?


--------------------
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Re: Whats your favorite Political Disinformation? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25688195 - 12/18/18 09:43 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

I think a fake identity is enough justification to ban that speech.


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Re: Whats your favorite Political Disinformation? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25688211 - 12/18/18 09:52 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

To point #1:

Yes, that's what I assume, but maybe I didn't quite ask the right question. Given that they use nefarious and illegal tactices like bribes, blackmail, prostitution, and whatever else I think that raises the more pertinent question of what was the extent to which they used the data.

#2:

I'm not sure what you mean by this, the Meuller investigation? It's on record that Cambridge wanted to go through the emails and parse them (for lack of a better word) before they were released. I'm not trying to debate if Russia hacked the emails.

#3:

I agree. I sure don't, IDK if "we" do. I couldn't care less about the Instagram post just as I'm sure you don't. What concerns me are the broader aspects behind the Instagram post.

This is another reason I think controlling it on the internet side is not wise. It's quite clear from the perspective of the troll farm that they are an intentionally malicious entity. Looking at any individual ad or comment however you really can't know.


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