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Offlineimachavel
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Re: Whats your favorite Political Disinformation? [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #27002283 - 10/25/20 09:14 AM (1 month, 7 days ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
My new favorite is this one from Russia:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2018/12/16/new-report-russian-disinformation-prepared-senate-shows-operations-scale-sweep/?noredirect=on

Whats your favorite? Who has the most convincing propaganda?




I don't have a source. But here are some somewhat reworded quotes from people representing disinformation, yet I try and stay as accurate to the quotes as possible:

"Voting for one President is voting for a socialist government while voting for the other is voting for Democracy"

"Voting for one President is voting for Communism while voting for the other is voting for Democracy"

"Voting for one President will surely be a vote to fix the coronavirus pandemic. The other has no plan. We as people are not really responsible for fixing this mess. The right President will cure this country."

"Voting for one President will surely be a vote to fix the issues with the economy. The other has no plan. We as people are not really responsible for fixing our lives and working hard to make money and keep our jobs and grow a company so there are jobs for other people. The right President will pump enough money into this country that the economy will flow again and jobs will rain from the sky and getting a good paying job will be easy. All jobs will pay great. Essential jobs will pay great. Being a mechanic, day laborer, construction worker, working demo, washes dishes will all pay as much as being a doctor or a lawyer or having an MBA. You just need to vote for the right President. Then having a job will practically not be a job anymore. Its not something you do on your own because you make it happen. It is something the President will help you with."


If you don't believe any of these statements that the public sector can fix the private sectors problems all on their own then at some point you must realise both of these candidates are extreme liars that have promised the world if one wins the election over the other. Impossible. Pure bullshit.


--------------------
The point to meditating is to feel the same when you are meditation as when you aren't. To be balanced inside and out. Difficult to do when being aware of breath and sensation. However, not impossible. Feeling ok about yourself at all times seems to be a great difficult skill to master. The concept so simple a snail could understand it. To practice it some of the greatest Albert Einstein type minds couldn't master it.

It's like the trick to human problems is to be even more human. Not less human but as human as possible, only understanding human nature.

Understanding subtleties is hard. What is subtle? Subtle is powerful. Atoms are subtle. Atoms make up everything we are. Understanding subtleties is one of the hardest parts of life.


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Whats your favorite Political Disinformation? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27002297 - 10/25/20 09:33 AM (1 month, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Ok, aside from the other examples above, I'm going to nominate ex RT journalist William Dunbar's story 13.15 - 16.20



That wasn't a fake news story.  It was RT saying they didn't want something covered.  So the journalist voluntarily left.




Hang on a second, back the truck up. What he said was after he went on air and reported that there was 'unconfirmed reports of Russian fighter jets bombing apartment blocks in Gori(just outside of Tbilisi)' he was given a berating by his editor in her office for saying so.
By which time however, his report was proven as Reuters etc had footage of the attack.
He then goes on to say CNN incorrectly claimed Tbilisi had been bombed :facepalm3: not Gori.
The narrator then says that later that night RT's editors asked him if he would go on air and correct CNN's blunder and confirm Tbilisi isn't being bombed, to which he says sure no problem as this was the case.
He then says that he is going to broadcast confirmed reports that the towns of Poti and Zugdidi have been bombed and there are civillian casualties.
He was told he could not say that.

That is a purposeful attempt to manipulate a reporters story.
It is fake news.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Whats your favorite Political Disinformation? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27002618 - 10/25/20 02:02 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
:awkwardconfusion:

Ok, so which RT story is true?

The aircraft was shot down by a Ukrainian jet or a BUK?

Which one?
Because one story and/or both are complete fucking bullshit.



Actually, both can be true.  As we've already shown, the first story aligns with eyewitness accounts and seems to be what the Russians were saying.  The second story specifically says that the claims are "according to an international team of investigators led by the Netherlands".  It doesn't really matter which side you want believe as they both point to Ukraine.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Whats your favorite Political Disinformation? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27002701 - 10/25/20 02:47 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Hang on a second, back the truck up. What he said was after he went on air and reported that there was 'unconfirmed reports of Russian fighter jets bombing apartment blocks in Gori(just outside of Tbilisi)' he was given a berating by his editor in her office for saying so.



He was berated for giving an unconfirmed report.  I don't think that's unreasonable.

Regardless, some background is in order:

Ossetia is a very pro Russian region of Georgia (very much like Crimea was a very pro Russian region of Ukraine).  Ossetia wanted independence from Georgia, and of course Georgia didn't want to let them go.  A war broke out in 2008.  Georgia and The West said it was a Russian invasion of Georgia, while Russia blamed Georgia for starting the war.

The Guardian link I provided in my last post shows that a nine month EU investigation determined that Georgia had indeed started the war and the West was making up another story to make Russia look like the aggressor:
Quote:

"The war started 'with a massive Georgian artillery attack', the report said".  "There was no ongoing armed attack by Russia before the start of the Georgian operation ... Georgian claims of a large-scale presence of Russian armed forces in South Ossetia prior to the Georgian offensive could not be substantiated ... It could also not be verified that Russia was on the verge of such a major attack."  "It is not possible to accept that the shelling of Tskhinvali with Grad multiple rocket launchers and heavy artillery would satisfy the requirements of having been necessary and proportionate."  "...the proper Russian response to the artillery barrage came – by land, sea and air – 12 hours after the Georgian action."  "On the night of 7-8 August 2008 … heavy fighting erupted in and around … Tskhinvali in South Ossetia [and] soon extended to other parts of Georgia. It caused serious destruction, reaching levels of utter devastation. Altogether about 850 persons lost their lives, more than 100,000 civilians fled their homes."




Quote:

Stable Genius said:
By which time however, his report was proven as Reuters etc had footage of the attack.
He then goes on to say CNN incorrectly claimed Tbilisi had been bombed :facepalm3: not Gori.
The narrator then says that later that night RT's editors asked him if he would go on air and correct CNN's blunder and confirm Tbilisi isn't being bombed, to which he says sure no problem as this was the case.
He then says that he is going to broadcast confirmed reports that the towns of Poti and Zugdidi have been bombed and there are civillian casualties.
He was told he could not say that.

That is a purposeful attempt to manipulate a reporters story.
It is fake news.



Again, they asked a reporter not to report on something; they didn't ask him to give fake news.  The West had already begun its false narrative of Russia being the aggressor.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Whats your favorite Political Disinformation? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27002818 - 10/25/20 04:01 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

So you're saying it was a 140mm missile launched from a jet AND ALSO a BUK missile launched from the ground.

And you're also saying that NOT reporting on verified news is ok, and we don't need to think any further about it because.... Georgia!?

Sorry man, I don't agree :thumbdown:


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Whats your favorite Political Disinformation? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27002847 - 10/25/20 04:21 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
So you're saying it was a 140mm missile launched from a jet AND ALSO a BUK missile launched from the ground.



No.  Russia is saying it was launched from a jet and the West is saying it was launched from the ground.

Both stories point to Ukraine as the culprit.

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
And you're also saying that NOT reporting on verified news is ok, and we don't need to think any further about it because.... Georgia!?

Sorry man, I don't agree :thumbdown:



Though I see your point that reporters should be able to report on anything they want on the stations they work for, news outlets can (and do) have a say in this.

We have evidence from Abby Martin and Ed Schultz (among other people) that rt.com is FAR less strict about what its reporters can say than other news outlets like MSNBC.

But the West was starting their fake news story about Russia invading Georgia (the EU investigation I linked to confirmed that was a fake story), and RT didn't want to spread news about the counter-attack that would help the West promote their fake news narrative.


--------------------
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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Whats your favorite Political Disinformation? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27002869 - 10/25/20 04:30 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

Fair enough I take your point on the missile.
But in regards the reporting in Georgia, the editors asked the reporter to not report on 2 different verified attacks on civilians. They asked him to engage in propaganda, to play politics.

That isn't the way things should be regardless of whatever crap is coming out of Washington.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Whats your favorite Political Disinformation? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27002889 - 10/25/20 04:38 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

I see your point, but let's continue that argument.

First of all, I still think that not reporting on something is different than putting out fake news about it.

But more importantly, how many mainstream American news stations reported on the EU Investigation results - which found that Russia DID NOT invade Georgia?

I don't think any of them did.  Was it because they had stupid reporters, or was it because they didn't want any of their reporters to admit their stations were putting out fake news?  My guess is the latter.

I think the motivation of RT withholding news was better than that of the American mainstream media withholding news.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Whats your favorite Political Disinformation? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27004041 - 10/26/20 07:48 AM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Stable Genius said:
So you're saying it was a 140mm missile launched from a jet AND ALSO a BUK missile launched from the ground.



No.  Russia is saying it was launched from a jet and the West is saying it was launched from the ground.
Both stories point to Ukraine as the culprit.





No that's incorrect, they have changed their story, I wasn't imagining things. However you'll have to cross back over from the dark side and read bellingcat to understand :shrug:

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/01/05/kremlins-shifting-self-contradicting-narratives-mh17/

Quote:

The Kremlin's Shifting, Self-Contradicting Narratives on MH17

Mixed Messages: 2014-2016
Over the next few years, the Kremlin would vacillate between the Ukrainian fighter jet and the Ukrainian Buk theories.




Quote:

The Current Kremlin Position
The Kremlin has shifted entirely away from the Ukrainian fighter jet theory, without any explicit redaction and after years of special media reports, fabricated radar evidence, witness reports, and official statements to the contrary. Throughout 2017 and going into 2018, the Kremlin narrative around MH17 is now focused on one theory: a Ukrainian Buk missile system downed MH17. Along with the promotion of this narrative, Russia intensified its attempts to discredit the Dutch-led criminal investigation into the downing, the Joint Investigation Team (JIT).




Quote:

In early 2017, the primary focus of the Russian messaging on MH17 was focused on the Russian radar data presented to the Dutch investigation. This radar data was first presented in September 2016 after it was “discovered” accidentally during “scheduled maintenance.” This data was presented in the same room and in the same fashion as the July 21, 2014 MoD press conference, yet it dismissed evidence presented two years prior of a Ukrainian fighter jet in the area. This contradiction was not acknowledged in the Kremlin messaging around MH17, with the focus instead shifting to how this radar data did not show a Buk missile launch from the field south of Snizhne where Buk 332 was present at the time.



It will be interesting to see what comes out of the trial in the Hague, apart from the predictable whining from Russia.



Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I see your point, but let's continue that argument.

First of all, I still think that not reporting on something is different than putting out fake news about it.

But more importantly, how many mainstream American news stations reported on the EU Investigation results - which found that Russia DID NOT invade Georgia?

I don't think any of them did.  Was it because they had stupid reporters, or was it because they didn't want any of their reporters to admit their stations were putting out fake news?  My guess is the latter.

I think the motivation of RT withholding news was better than that of the American mainstream media withholding news.




Ok I agree there is a difference between not reporting something and purposely engaging in fake news.

As for U.S. media reporting, I don't know, maybe?
This is what the ABC reported here... it seems resonable :shrug:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2008-08-10/unrest-in-south-ossetia-timeline/471112


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Whats your favorite Political Disinformation? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27005583 - 10/27/20 02:55 AM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Bellingcat, true to form, calls the Russian evidence as "fabricated radar evidence", while the West suppresses the Ukrainian air-traffic control conversations.  They didn't let Russia, or even Malaysia (whose aircraft it was) participate in the early investigation; only Ukraine, the Netherlands, Australia, and Belgium (pro-West countries).  Why were Western countries rather than neutral or mixed countries investigating?

That makes me highly suspicious.

Also, at least two forensic experts said the tape of a discussion of Russian separatists that Ukraine claimed shot down MH17 was highly edited (see 14:15 - 15:12 and 17:50-18:30 of the clip below).  And a member of the Ukrainian military said military radar WAS working that day, contrary to the official story (see 26:17 - 27:00).  More evidence of a cover up.



Note the timing as well.  This was during the time when the United States was heavily involved in trying to take Crimea back from Russia after the US backed coup.

I'll grant you there's a lot of conflicting evidence.  But I'm always suspicious when evidence is suppressed or kept secret.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Whats your favorite Political Disinformation? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27005649 - 10/27/20 04:44 AM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I'll grant you there's a lot of conflicting evidence.  But I'm always suspicious when evidence is suppressed or kept secret.




Fair enough.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Whats your favorite Political Disinformation? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 4
    #27005987 - 10/27/20 12:05 PM (1 month, 5 days ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:

Whats your favorite? Who has the most convincing propaganda?




1. When Republicans are in power, The Democrats are powerless to stop them.
2. When Democrats are in power, they’re powerless to do anything because the Republicans stop them.


--------------------


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Whats your favorite Political Disinformation? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27040627 - 11/15/20 03:53 PM (17 days, 14 hours ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Stable Genius said:
The other two stories were regarding Ebola and the Zika virus which I haven't looked at so far.



Let me know if you find anything interesting.





I had a chance to look at a few articles yesterday but it was via the phone.
There was one from the New York Times that I'll post later :thumbup:


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