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Technical Shroomerites: aircooling a water cooled Sake still - how much airflow? * 1
    #25672043 -

Guys take a look at this charming little contraption:





Whats done with it, is to ferment rice, grains or sugar in water into a wine and then after filtering and clarifying, distilling the wine into lets say 1/4 of the volume alcohol of whiskey strength.

Now that I got your attention :naughty: listen up!

The hot alcohol rich fumes rise throught the oval column, obviously a packed column, and the fumes enter the second chamber. Through this second chamber, a stainless cooling coil runs.

The coil cools the alcohol vapor, condensing it to liquid, which pours out the long tube into a collection bottle, and presto: The Sake moon shines :smile:

As you see, the second chamber has an inlet and outlet for water cooling tubes. The idea is that you have a tub of water nearby, and an immersion pump pumps this coolant water round and round.

This is not what I intend!

What I intend is to connect the coolant tube to a small air pump, so that not water but air rushes through the cooling coil, cooling it, without need for big tubs of water with spill risks and all that.

So now you in essence have an all foodgrade stainless device standing on a hotplate being cooled by an aquarium or koi pond air pump, both plugged into the same interruptor-secured box.

Neato huh? You could fire it up anywhere you have an AC socket, no need to lug around coolant water in big tubs.


Now the question to the tech inclined Shroomerites!

Vapor is going to enter at 80'C
Air temperature is about 20'C
coil crossection is about 1cm2

What airflow in liter/min would do the trick, you feel?

You're blowing 20'C cool air through a metal coil warmed on the outside by 80'C warm alcohol vapor.

A very good output for the device would be 1-2 liters of liquid whiskey strength (50-60%) alcohol per hour. It might even be tweaked, note the temperature gouges, to get as close to azeotrope as 92%.

How many liters of air per minute would suffice?


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Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Re: Technical Shroomerites: aircooling a water cooled Sake still - how much airflow? [Re: Asante] * 2
    #25672055 -

I don’t think air will cool the same as water will something to do with heat being k/cals and water being able to use those k/cals to break its own bond
Sorry I don’t have more of an answer for you
I would think the size of the contraption area you’re trying to cool (volume of it) is what would determine your lpm. and would think you would need to have some sort of conversion equation as to the rate of cooling as this is important to the airflow too
Hopefully there’s some sort of smarty pants on here who can really help


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theRealrollforever said:
That’s not possible; even with computers

Edited by theRealrollforever (12/11/18 10:52 AM)

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Re: Technical Shroomerites: aircooling a water cooled Sake still - how much airflow? [Re: theRealrollforever]
    #25672071 -

theRealrollforever said:
I don’t think air will cool the same as water will
Sorry I don’t have more of an answer for you
I would think the size of the contraption area you’re trying to cool (volume of it) is what would determine your lpm. and would think you would need to have some sort of conversion equation as to the rate of cooling as this is important to the airflow too
Hopefully there’s some sort of smarty pants on here who can really help



The difference is flow speed, Cool air at greater flow speed will carry increasing amounts of warmth away, and the cooling air is forced through a much warmer metal tube  where a lot of heat transfer will take place, methinx


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Re: Technical Shroomerites: aircooling a water cooled Sake still - how much airflow? [Re: Asante] * 1
    #25672085 -

Asante said:
theRealrollforever said:
I don’t think air will cool the same as water will
Sorry I don’t have more of an answer for you
I would think the size of the contraption area you’re trying to cool (volume of it) is what would determine your lpm. and would think you would need to have some sort of conversion equation as to the rate of cooling as this is important to the airflow too
Hopefully there’s some sort of smarty pants on here who can really help



The difference is flow speed, Cool air at greater flow speed will carry increasing amounts of warmth away, and the cooling air is forced through a much warmer metal tube  where a lot of heat transfer will take place, methinx

i agree but the maths required are very complex me thinks.  Plus does the device have a baseline for how much water needs to be pumped.  Then work out a conversion to how much air will be equivalent in cooling effect?  Too much sciences for me I stopped after calculus and don’t remember a damn thing


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theRealrollforever said:
That’s not possible; even with computers

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Re: Technical Shroomerites: aircooling a water cooled Sake still - how much airflow? [Re: theRealrollforever] * 1
    #25672173 -

You would need a hell of a fan/ compressor

Them shits is loud

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Re: Technical Shroomerites: aircooling a water cooled Sake still - how much airflow? [Re: Asante] * 2
    #25672217 -

It's not the answer you want, but you're not going to get enough airflow through it.  Water has a specific heat four times that of air and a density hundreds of times that of air, depending on temperature, etc.  In any case, the actual volume of air necessary will be over a thousand times the volume of water needed.  Meaning the speed of the air travel will have to be over a thousand times more....assuming you can create that flow and still keep the air at 20 deg., which is probably not possible either.  To get that flow, you will necessarily increase pressure which will increase the temperature of that air.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Technical Shroomerites: aircooling a water cooled Sake still - how much airflow? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #25672226 -

The heat capacity of water is 3,330 times that of air, so good luck with that


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Technical Shroomerites: aircooling a water cooled Sake still - how much airflow? [Re: koods] * 1
    #25672231 -

He can draw in air from outside, air has water in it.

I think it would work, but at what cost?

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Re: Technical Shroomerites: aircooling a water cooled Sake still - how much airflow? [Re: cannabinated] * 1
    #25672234 -

I think contamination/ fucking with the flavor becomes a risk with pressure leaks tho

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Re: Technical Shroomerites: aircooling a water cooled Sake still - how much airflow? [Re: cannabinated] * 2
    #25672237 -

compressed air bro

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Re: Technical Shroomerites: air-cooling a water cooled Sake still - how much airflow? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #25672240 -

Yeah, this is not going to work. Just going by the fact that the designers didnt opt for air cooling if that was a real possibility.

If its a Japanese design you can be sure they looked into that


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Ach en wee ben ik de klos, met mijn boog schoot ik een albatros...

A philosopher is a person who knows less and less about more and more, until he knows nothing about everything.


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Re: Technical Shroomerites: aircooling a water cooled Sake still - how much airflow? [Re: Enlil]
    #25672269 -

Enlil said:
It's not the answer you want, but you're not going to get enough airflow through it.  Water has a specific heat four times that of air and a density hundreds of times that of air, depending on temperature, etc.  In any case, the actual volume of air necessary will be over a thousand times the volume of water needed.  Meaning the speed of the air travel will have to be over a thousand times more....assuming you can create that flow and still keep the air at 20 deg., which is probably not possible either.  To get that flow, you will necessarily increase pressure which will increase the temperature of that air.




Its not what I hoped for but it IS the answer I needed, much thanks!

Cooking dinner I was figuring that air weighs a ballpark 1.25kg/m3 or so so to match the kilos of vapor being condensed, thousands of liters of air need to pass through, and in the documentation it was specified that total runtime would be in the order of 1.5-3 hours.

1000s of liters of air through 1 cm2 - definitely not going to happen. A compressor woluld be needed costing many times that what a simple water pump and trashcan setup could solve, especially since it wont be industrial production, just a lil household :laugh:


Thanks for taking the time!


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Re: Technical Shroomerites: air-cooling a water cooled Sake still - how much airflow? [Re: Tripsurfer]
    #25672273 -

Tripsurfer said:
Yeah, this is not going to work. Just going by the fact that the designers didnt opt for air cooling if that was a real possibility.

If its a Japanese design you can be sure they looked into that



Its a Chinese design, its specified to be also suitable for coal gas and even a wood fire, its developing nation proof.


Speaking of proof, do y'all realize that


A pound of sugar can be converted into a fifth of vodka


I don't intend heavy consumption, I drink ridiculously little alcohol, I want to use it primarily as a foodgrade solvent for experiments and cleaning (everclear-type 96%/192pr costs 10x as much as DIY here which is a horrid waste if you're not even going to drink it)


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Re: Technical Shroomerites: air-cooling a water cooled Sake still - how much airflow? [Re: Tripsurfer]
    #25672292 -

Tripsurfer said:
Yeah, this is not going to work. Just going by the fact that the designers didnt opt for air cooling if that was a real possibility.

If its a Japanese design you can be sure they looked into that


Thing is, there are discreet little 1 gal still units that ARE aircooled and if you make a coil stil you dont even have to cool the coil as enough heat radiates off the coil into the open air.




--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Re: Technical Shroomerites: air-cooling a water cooled Sake still - how much airflow? [Re: Asante]
    #25672347 -

koods doesn't know what a fifth is.

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Re: Technical Shroomerites: air-cooling a water cooled Sake still - how much airflow? [Re: Crazy_Horse]
    #25672450 -

Five fifths is one


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Technical Shroomerites: air-cooling a water cooled Sake still - how much airflow? [Re: koods]
    #25672470 -

Next problem:

Stainless steel is over 20x less efficient at conducting heat than copper. Those still coils are already gonna struggle to move enough heat away from the condensing surface as is.

Metal  Thermal Conductivity BTU/hr ft °F
Copper 411
Aluminum 164
Admiralty Brass 126
Carbon Steel 56
Stainless Steel 19

Also you aren’t just transfering heat from the gas outside the coil to insidethe coil. You are changing the phase of ethanol and water on that surface. The amount of energy released in condensation is tremendous. Without doing the rather complicated math, you would likely need to push air through those coils at multiple times the speed of sound (if it works at all. This may be thermodynamically impossible and most of your ethanol will leave the condenser uncondensed)


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

Edited by koods (12/11/18 02:08 PM)

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Re: Technical Shroomerites: air-cooling a water cooled Sake still - how much airflow? [Re: koods]
    #25672476 -

koods said:
Five fifths is one


one what?

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Re: Technical Shroomerites: air-cooling a water cooled Sake still - how much airflow? [Re: koods]
    #25672483 -

yeah nobody makes still coils out of stainless that i've ever seen.  copper inside of a stainless column?  maybe, but not a stainless coil.  hell, the super precise fractionating still i used to run had a Cu column and coil on top of a stainless pot.

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Re: Technical Shroomerites: air-cooling a water cooled Sake still - how much airflow? [Re: relic]
    #25672493 -

Ive used a glass column to distill alcohol before and you have to put a liter of water through it a minute to make sure you’re not losing any of the goodies.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Technical Shroomerites: air-cooling a water cooled Sake still - how much airflow? [Re: koods]
    #25672500 -

A lot of this depends on how fast the mash is being vaporized. He could run this at a painfully
Slow rate to get it to work.

Another problem. With inefficient cooling you’re gonna be running the condenser more like a fractional column where you condense the water but leave the alcohol in vapor phase.   


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

Edited by koods (12/11/18 02:22 PM)

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Re: Technical Shroomerites: air-cooling a water cooled Sake still - how much airflow? [Re: Crazy_Horse]
    #25672504 -

Crazy_Horse said:
koods said:
Five fifths is one


one what?


Whatever is being divided into fifths

Gallons. Liters. Khashoggis.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

Edited by koods (12/11/18 02:17 PM)

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Re: Technical Shroomerites: air-cooling a water cooled Sake still - how much airflow? [Re: Asante]
    #25672520 -

If its Chinese anything is possible. Nobody knows what the hell those guys are doing :lol:


--------------------
Ach en wee ben ik de klos, met mijn boog schoot ik een albatros...

A philosopher is a person who knows less and less about more and more, until he knows nothing about everything.


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Re: Technical Shroomerites: aircooling a water cooled Sake still - how much airflow? [Re: Asante]
    #25672608 -

what about dry ice and methanol or salt water as the cooling liquid?  Might take less volume to circulate?

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Re: Technical Shroomerites: aircooling a water cooled Sake still - how much airflow? [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #25672618 -

I think Asante is concerned about trying to deal with circulating liquid. I just put a little adapter in my faucet and have the hose return into the drain. Easy peazy.



(Btw, google image recognition is amazing. I just searched for “chemistry” in my photos and it found that)

One time I set it up in the bathroom so I could put the heating mantle on the tile floor. At some point t the hose popped loose and the floor got covered in water and soaked the heating mantle. I got a nice little jolt when I stepped into the bathroom. It would have been very bad if I had managed to be grounded.

Edited by koods (12/11/18 03:20 PM)

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Re: Technical Shroomerites: aircooling a water cooled Sake still - how much airflow? [Re: koods]
    #25672633 -

oh damn!  Glad you didn't fry

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Re: Technical Shroomerites: aircooling a water cooled Sake still - how much airflow? [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #25672646 -

It wasn’t unpleasant lol.

It felt like one of those vibrating chairs at sharper image.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Technical Shroomerites: aircooling a water cooled Sake still - how much airflow? [Re: Asante]
    #25673581 -

U would probably need a ton of airflow.

Air-cooled engines have a ton of air flowing over its body. Those little ports are not nearly big enough. Ice water would be better. Thats what moonshiners use anyway.

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Re: Technical Shroomerites: aircooling a water cooled Sake still - how much airflow? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #25673638 -

I looked in the specs and with some googling applied it was clear that in order for the contraption to yield approx 2 gallons of distillate, one would need a total runtime of 1.5-3 hours during which a water pump of 600 liters per hour is recommended and cooling water should be no warmer than 40'C.

One would need hypersonic speeds of air through the tube for that :laugh:


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Re: Technical Shroomerites: aircooling a water cooled Sake still - how much airflow? [Re: Asante]
    #25673671 -

Indeed!

Liquid nitrogen might work but its very costly.

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Re: Technical Shroomerites: aircooling a water cooled Sake still - how much airflow? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #25673691 -

Lets do it helium cooled under the Olympic stadium, Akira style :tetsuo:

Meanwhile I discovered that my energy saving radiator radiates 38'C, which is right on the mark for making yoghurt which is a second process I got going, it goes successfully too, modifying a 1 liter yoghurt machine I was gifted to accept 2 jugs of 2 liters of milk. The doubling worked flawlessly, now to see if the quadrupling will work also. No reason it should not.

Making yoghurt isnt just a way to load yourself up with probiotics, it also nukes the lactose in milk, the lactose being the unhealthy factor.

I charged the 2 jugs with 3 ounces each of running yoghurt still hot from having finished incubating, I chucked them on the radiator with a cloth on top to get it to room temperature and maybe beyond, it would be awesome if it could be made to cruise in the 30-45'C range like that so that the 45'C yoghurt maker can be put to other uses, like Amazing (TM) distilling 1kg of sugar in 3-4 liters of wash into a liter and a half of vodka or apple brandy :gameover:


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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