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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Unusually High [Re: Phred]
    #2578705 - 04/19/04 04:21 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Pinky
As sick and tragic as this may seem I know of several GROUPS of young boys who have vowed to NOT return alive from Iraq. Why?. Because they have nothing to live for so why not go out in the most realistic video game there is, WAR;The Reality Game That Takes No Prisoners.Bandy about irrelevant statistics but there are kids who are going to Iraq just to die.
That said I believe the REALITY of war changes many of these kids outlook on life but those percentages you are tossing about represent kids who are dead.It matters little if they took their own lives or died from enemy or freindly fire.They are dead.
Some people just cannot stomach taking someone elses country and stealing their resources.Let alone see women and children blown to burger to achieve that aim.
At least in Viet Nam you could numb out with some good smack these poor kids are tweeeking on uber-speed most of the time with little or no relief from the stresses and tensions.
You think past wars have produced PTSD wait till these poor kids get back with speed psychosis.
Peace
WR:beer:


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Unusually High [Re: whiterasta]
    #2578715 - 04/19/04 04:24 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

whiterasta said:
That said I believe the REALITY of war changes many of these kids outlook on life but those percentages you are tossing about represent kids who are dead.It matters little if they took their own lives or died from enemy or freindly fire.They are dead.
Some people just cannot stomach taking someone elses country and stealing their resources.Let alone see women and children blown to burger to achieve that aim.
At least in Viet Nam you could numb out with some good smack these poor kids are tweeeking on uber-speed most of the time with little or no relief from the stresses and tensions.
You think past wars have produced PTSD wait till these poor kids get back with speed psychosis.
Peace
WR:beer:





I think that is exactly what the issue is.  Are these "kids" under more stress than usual, and thus, taking their own lives? The numbers, according to pinksharkmark who seems to have done his research, don't show that. Your subjective, and somewhat questionable, knowledge of people who are going off to Iraq planning to die (Are you high?) isn't 'real', his numbers are.

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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Unusually High [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2578791 - 04/19/04 04:42 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Your subjective, and somewhat questionable, knowledge of people who are going off to Iraq planning to die (Are you high?) isn't 'real', his numbers are. 




Numbers= real
experience= Are you high?
under stress? I have known and talked with every veteran since WW1 and every war had it's stress relief with the exception of our gulf campaigns. Urinalysis prevents using any of the hashish in the area and muslim anti-alcohol beliefs keep a drunk out of reach. Heroin, again UA danger and probably does not mix well with the modern attention boosters. So whats left? Screwing the cute female corporal in the stylish camo and AK-47? Just who is measuring the stress levels of the ground troops?I guarantee it is  not and outside independent but the military itself. You know the same guys that say Agent Orange is nuthin'
Peace
WR:beer:
PS nope not high, and you can take what I have said any way you like but I have no motivation to fabricate and every motivation to wish this was NOT the case as my own nephew is how I came to be aware of these kids.


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Unusually High [Re: whiterasta]
    #2578816 - 04/19/04 04:47 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

under stress? I have known and talked with every veteran
Every single veteran? somehow, I'm finding myself doubting that.

since WW1 and every war had it's stress relief with the exception of our gulf campaigns. Urinalysis prevents using any of the hashish in the area and muslim anti-alcohol beliefs keep a drunk out of reach.

Hah, no alcohol in military bases in the middle east? I'll believe that after you tell me again that you talked with "Every veteran".

Heroin, again UA danger and probably does not mix well with the modern attention boosters. So whats left? Screwing the cute female corporal in the stylish camo and AK-47? Just who is measuring the stress levels of the ground troops?I guarantee it is not and outside independent but the military itself. You know the same guys that say Agent Orange is nuthin'


contrary to shroomery beliefs, stress can be cured without using drugs. If their was more stress, their would be, it would seem, more suicides than average. Their aren't.

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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Unusually High [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2578844 - 04/19/04 04:57 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Please do not play childish semantics with me. you know very well what point I was making I have talked with veterans of all of the american conflicts since WW1.
Yeah and a guy can really cut loose on base in the middle of the fucking desert,eh?
Contrary to your belief stress is not "cured" it is endured and the body does it's best to repair once the stress is removed.
As I said, it will prove itself as the veterans return.
Now please return to throwing death stats about like tax adjusters :wink:
Peace
WR:beer:


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Unusually High [Re: whiterasta]
    #2578865 - 04/19/04 05:02 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)


Please do not play childish semantics with me. you know very well what point I was making I have talked with veterans of all of the american conflicts since WW1.

I say what I mean, and mean what I say! I guess expecting the same from everyone else....

Yeah and a guy can really cut loose on base in the middle of the fucking desert,eh?

Ah, so if they had alcohol, they'd be able to release their stress better.  Boy, nothing I'd love more than to be in a hot fucking desert drunk.  Also, they do have alcohol, so your point, again, is moot.

Contrary to your belief stress is not "cured" it is endured and the body does it's best to repair once the stress is removed.

Stress is your bodies reaction to your minds perception of reality. Change your perception, change your bodily reaction thereto.

Now please return to throwing death stats about like tax adjusters :wink:

Yes, excuse us to do our logical, rational and factual discussion, now that you've put in your subjective, and hihgly suspect, two cents worth.

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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Unusually High [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2578922 - 04/19/04 05:16 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

So take two cents and see what it buys. Not much, like the self important attitudes of all of you people who are "right" in your opinions, which no matter how many facts you feed your brain will always remain subjective.

"Stress is your bodies reaction to your minds perception of reality. Change your perception, change your bodily reaction thereto."

Very good point, not much room for changing perception in todays military though.
peace
WR:beer:


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Unusually High [Re: whiterasta]
    #2578969 - 04/19/04 05:31 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)


So take two cents and see what it buys. Not much, like the self important attitudes of all of you people who are "right" in your opinions, which no matter how many facts you feed your brain will always remain subjective.

n-n-n-nnooo. Lets refer to Mr Webster to help out with this.
Quote:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=opinion
o?pin?ion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-pnyn)
n.
A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof: ?The world is not run by thought, nor by imagination, but by opinion? (Elizabeth Drew).
A judgment based on special knowledge and given by an expert: a medical opinion.
A judgment or estimation of the merit of a person or thing: has a low opinion of braggarts.
The prevailing view: public opinion.
Law. A formal statement by a court or other adjudicative body of the legal reasons and principles for the conclusions of the court.




OK, so now we see that an "opinion" is not substantiated by positive proof or knowledge, lets see how that differs from what pinky was showing, which is in truth called;
Quote:


fact ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fkt)
n.
Knowledge or information based on real occurrences: an account based on fact; a blur of fact and fancy.

Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed: Genetic engineering is now a fact. That Chaucer was a real person is an undisputed fact.
A real occurrence; an event: had to prove the facts of the case.
Something believed to be true or real: a document laced with mistaken facts.
A thing that has been done, especially a crime: an accessory before the fact.
Law. The aspect of a case at law comprising events determined by evidence: The jury made a finding of fact.




So, YOU have an opinion, because it's based on your unsubstantiated belief, pinky was presenting fact. Their is a real big difference there. A gigantic difference. I'm talking "night" and "day" different. "black" and "white" different. "empty" and "full" different, diametricaly opposed opposites different. THAT kind of different. Oh, an example. It was your OPINION that pinky was talkin about his personal belief, but it is FACT that he was truely talking about objective hard evidence. See how that works? Mr Dictionary is our friend.

Very good point, not much room for changing perception in todays military though.

Hm, weren't you just saying that they all waned to be drunk? sounds like some perception changing to me... OF course, why stick with what words actually mean when you can change them and always be right. You are certaitly welcome to your OPINION

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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Unusually High [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2578984 - 04/19/04 05:37 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Well like assholes they say we all have one and they are usually best kept to ones self.
As I said and I will stand by this; All opinions are subjective


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Unusually High [Re: whiterasta]
    #2579721 - 04/19/04 08:35 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Reality: Most of these "poor innocent American military victims of the war" voted for G.W. and will probably vote for him again in the next election.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Unusually High [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2581366 - 04/20/04 02:32 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Ummm... the ones who committed suicide won't be voting for anyone in the upcoming election, and it's unlikely they would have voted for anyone in the last election either -- they were probably too young to vote in 2000.

According to the article Swami linked in his last post,

"Almost all of the soldiers who committed suicide were young, white enlisted troops, the study showed. Most were having problems with relationships, money or legal difficulties, said a Pentagon official with knowledge of the report."

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Unusually High [Re: whiterasta]
    #2581390 - 04/20/04 02:49 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

whiterasta writes:

That said I believe the REALITY of war changes many of these kids outlook on life but those percentages you are tossing about represent kids who are dead.It matters little if they took their own lives or died from enemy or freindly fire.They are dead.

Yes, they are dead. I'm not disputing that 24 troops in Iraq killed themselves in the period of 53 weeks. I'm merely showing that this many suicides in a group of that size in a period of a year is not an unusually high number compared to historical data of peacetime troops gathered over a decade and a half. As a matter of fact, it is a lower suicide rate than all but two years since 1990. We can conclude from this fact (and it is a fact) that if you are in the military, your odds of dying from suicide are lower when in a combat zone than in a non-combat zone.

I am making no value judgments here, whiterasta. I merely point out the incorrect characterization of this problem as "extremely high", "unusually high", or even, for that matter, "average", since as I have proven, the rate is actually lower than the average rate since 1990 by a significant amount.

If that makes me appear cold and analytical in your eyes, so be it. The fact of the matter is that young people kill themselves all the time -- non-military American young males kill themselves at a rate double (21.5 vs 10.8) that of the most recent military rate.

From the most recent articles Swami links:

"That rate was still below the national average of 21.5 suicides per 100,000 for males ages 20-34, which roughly matches the age range of the bulk of the soldiers in Iraq."



pinky


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Unusually High [Re: Phred]
    #2581439 - 04/20/04 03:31 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

While that would be relevent to this thread, it isn't relevant to anything that I said.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Unusually High [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2581484 - 04/20/04 04:21 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

O I C.

I thought by "poor innocent American military victims of the war" you were referring to those who had committed suicide. My bad.

pinky


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Unusually High [Re: Phred]
    #2582194 - 04/20/04 10:45 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

No, I was actually referring to those that will likely be traumatized by the war, which is of course a form of casualties that should not be discounted.

I was just pointing out that they got themselves into it. They all joined voluntarily (unlike vietnam) and most of them support Bush and the war.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Unusually High [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2583370 - 04/20/04 02:31 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
Reality: Most of these "poor innocent American military victims of the war" voted for G.W. and will probably vote for him again in the next election.



I don't know about that, you may be right but they are prevented from publicly saying anything negative about their Liar in chief by the military code of conduct.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Unusually High [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2583380 - 04/20/04 02:33 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
Reality: Most of these "poor innocent American military victims of the war" voted for G.W. and will probably vote for him again in the next election.



Many of them are just poor minority families cashing in on the G.I. Bill, and have no interest in Bush's foreign policy objectives.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Unusually High [Re: Evolving]
    #2584600 - 04/20/04 08:38 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I don't know about that, you may be right but they are prevented from publicly saying anything negative about their Liar in chief by the military code of conduct.

It is interesting that in order to protect our "democracy and freedom"; the military operates essentially as a dictatorship in which its citizens (soldiers) have few rights.

Late for work (AWOL)? Brig time or fine.

Tell your boss off? Possible court martial and demotion.

Speak out? That's a major no-no.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Unusually High [Re: Swami]
    #2584608 - 04/20/04 08:41 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Well, fortunately, for now at least, it's voluntary.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Unusually High [Re: Swami]
    #2595395 - 04/23/04 03:19 PM (20 years, 30 days ago)

They must really hate the military, either that or Iraq is just the place to off yourself.






Friday, April 23, 2004
U.S. Soldiers Re-enlist in Strong Numbers

FORT CAMPBELL, Ky. - Despite the shrapnel wounds Staff Sgt. William Pinkley suffered during his tour in Iraq, the 26-year-old is joining other soldiers who are re-enlisting at rates that exceed the retention goals set by the Pentagon.

As of March 31, halfway through the Army's fiscal year, 28,406 soldiers had signed on for another tour of duty, topping the six-month goal of 28,377. The Army's goal is to re-enlist 56,100 soldiers by the end of September.

Pinkley re-enlisted for three more years, citing the camaraderie and the challenge of a new assignment.

"To come out and work with you guys every day, it's a good feeling," Pinkley, 26, told his 101st Airborne Division buddies during the ceremony earlier this month. His wife, Kimberly, watched with a smile, their toddler in her arms.

"It's a very positive retention picture at this point," said Lt. Col. Franklin Childress, an Army public affairs officer. The Army had nearly a half-million active-duty soldiers.

However, Childress cautioned that factors such as an improved economy and the Pentagon's decision to keep about 20,000 troops in Iraq for longer than a year to help quell the violence could change the picture.

Some contend a poor job market and re-enlistment bonuses worth thousands of dollars are keeping soldiers in the Army. Col. Joseph Anderson, commander of the 101st's 2nd Brigade, said it was more about camaraderie, patriotism and duty.

"They've had a personally rewarding and professionally developing experience," Anderson said. "I think they've formed some bonds that are going to last a lifetime. It tends to make them want to stay."

The only Army division not to meet its goal in the six-month period was the 82nd Airborne Division, whose members have been sent to fight in Afghanistan and Iraq since the Sept. 11 attacks. The division wanted to re-enlist 1,221 soldiers but got only 1,136.

At Fort Campbell, soldiers from the 101st spent seven months in Afghanistan after the Sept. 11 attacks. The entire division of about 20,000 soldiers was sent to Iraq last year for major combat, and the last planeload returned home in March. A grueling year in Iraq claimed the lives of 61 Fort Campbell soldiers, and hundreds more were wounded.

In the six-month period ending March 31, the 101st topped its goal of re-enlisting 1,591. It got 1,737 to sign up for another tour of duty.

Fort Campbell leaders said their numbers debunk the theory that yearlong combat-zone assignments, not typically used since Vietnam, and the casualties in Iraq would discourage soldiers from re-enlisting.


? 2004 Associated Press.


Kill yourself in sunny Iraq!


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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