Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: North Spore Bulk Substrate   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Extremely High [Re: Xlea321]
    #2573294 - 04/18/04 06:51 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Alex, you make a habit of denying reality in favor of relying on the pronouncements of people upon whom you (apparently randomly) bestow the title of "experts". This saves you the effort of thinking but leads you to believe all manner of bizarre fallacies.

Swami posted his links to poorly researched articles and quotes from people who can't be bothered to check the historical military suicide rates which are readily available to anyone competent enough to use a web search engine. On the other hand, I linked to the actual data showing that the suicide rate is within the military average and below the rate from several past years as well as being significantly below the rate of American males aged 20-34.

As usual, you not only never checked the links to the data, you didn't even bother to read the relevant excerpts from the information I linked. Instead, you decided that the pronouncements of one reporter trumped data from the CDC (Center for Disease Control) and the comments of one doctor at the Pentagon trumped the data from the DoD's (Department of Defense) records.

The data is there for any reader of this forum who has the ability to read and the mental capacity to understand such concepts as "greater than", "less than", and "average". The reader can then decide for himself whether someone unable to grasp these three concepts -- which most of us learned in grade school -- deserves the title of "expert".

pinky


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Extremely High [Re: Phred]
    #2573490 - 04/18/04 09:55 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

So you have no-one who can vouch for your level of knowledge on any of these matters.

Fair enough.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Unusually High [Re: Swami]
    #2573506 - 04/18/04 10:03 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

March 30 - The gnashing of teeth you hear at the Pentagon is caused by deep concern over Army morale and suicide numbers that are upside down. The long-awaited Mental Health Advisory Team survey released a few days ago showed that unit morale is low-72 percent called it bad-and that suicide among U.S. troops in Iraq is high?35 percent higher than soldiers stationed elsewhere. And those numbers don?t include suicides that happened once soldiers returned home.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4632956/


October 14, 2003

The US army has sent mental health specialists to Iraq to determine why so many soldiers are committing suicide there, a US media report said.

Eleven US soldiers and three Marines have killed themselves in the past seven months in Iraq, an annualised rate of 17 suicides per 100,000 soldiers.

The usual rate of army suicides is 13 per 100,000 soldiers, the report in the USA Today newspaper said.

Mar. 26 2004 - A long-awaited report by the U.S. Army showed a high rate of suicide among soldiers deployed in the Iraq conflict, with 23 soldiers taking their lives in 2003, including two women. A 24th soldier committed suicide this year, officials said Thursday.

Two additional deaths in 2003 are still under investigation for possible suicide, officials said. Seven more soldiers killed themselves after leaving Iraq, but the Army said it had decided not to list those deaths as Iraq war suicides.

The 23 self-inflicted deaths translate to an annual suicide rate of 17.3 per 100,000 soldiers, much higher than the average over-all Army rate of 11.9 per 100,000 between 1995 and 2002.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/bus...tory.jsp&1c

A review of news reports covering the last two months
suggests that the suicide rate among Army soldiers
involved in Iraq duty is much higher
than either the Army or the Defense Department is willing to admit.

The official count is 31, with 24 suicides in Iraq,
and 7 back home in the U.S., as of March 20.

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?noframes;read=46217

Winkenwerder said the military has documented 21 suicides during 2003 among troops involved in the Iraq war. Eighteen of those were Army soldiers, he said.

That's a suicide rate for soldiers in Iraq of about 13.5 per 100,000, Winkenwerder said. In 2002, the Army reported an overall suicide rate of 11.1 per 100,000.

The overall suicide rate nationwide during 2001 was 10.7 per 100,000, according to the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

By contrast, only two U.S. military personnel killed themselves during the 1991 Persian Gulf War, although that conflict only lasted about a month. The Army recorded 102 suicides during 1991 for a rate of about 13.5 per 100,000.

The military investigates every death and some of those probes may be incomplete, meaning the actual suicide rate could be even higher, Winkenwerder said.

http://www.notinourname.net/troops/suicide-14jan04.htm

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Extremely High [Re: Xlea321]
    #2573507 - 04/18/04 10:04 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Any honest person with an internet connection can verify his sources.

Apparently "honest" is a concept you never grasped.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Extremely High [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2573517 - 04/18/04 10:07 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Man, have you got some spare time on your hands.. :yawn:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Extremely High [Re: Xlea321]
    #2573541 - 04/18/04 10:18 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

How can the truth be a flame?

As long as you continue to be dishonest and disingenuous, I'll continue to point it out.

Try being honest.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Extremely High [Re: Xlea321]
    #2573545 - 04/18/04 10:19 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Man, have you got some spare time on your hands..



Well at least that was an honest statement. Get on a roll and keep it up.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Extremely High [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2573566 - 04/18/04 10:29 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Be a little more creative with the flames luv, you've posted them all hundreds of times. I'm falling asleep here  :yawn:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Extremely High [Re: Xlea321]
    #2573585 - 04/18/04 10:38 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Well at least you can only lie to yourself while asleep.

As as I asked earlier.... how can the truth be a flame?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Extremely High [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2574660 - 04/18/04 06:01 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

As long as you continue to be dishonest and disingenuous, I'll continue to point it out.



I haven't seen a link yet.


--------------------
ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Unusually High [Re: Xlea321]
    #2575511 - 04/18/04 08:57 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Alex123 writes:

So you have no-one who can vouch for your level of knowledge on any of these matters.

Someone who can vouch for my knowledge? No one other than every reader who is capable of clicking on the links I provided and who also grasps the concepts "greater than", "less than", and "average". Apparently you don't meet those requirements, so you haven't the qualifications necessary to pass judgment on my level of knowledge. Moving on...

The links you provide prove my point for me.

So far, we have numbers from the various links you and Swami provided of either 21 or 23 suicides of troops serving in Iraq in 2003 -- 18 if you count just army, 21 when you add the three marines, 23 when you add the two women (presumably also army). And surely it hasn't escaped your notice that as of March 26, 2004, just a single additional suicide has occurred in 2004, to bring the total US military suicides of troops serving in Iraq in the period of a year plus a week to 24.

Your one report makes much of "annualizing" the seventeen suicides in the first seven months of 2003 operations to come up with a figure of 17 per 100,000. When we extend the calculation to December 31, 2003, the number drops to 13.5. But for some reason no one has seen fit to "annualize" the single suicide in the first three months of 2004 -- probably because it's pretty tough to extrapolate an entire year's worth of data reliably from a single death. After all, it may be the only suicide in the entire year. We can't know one way or the other until December 31, 2004.

But maybe there's another reason for not treating that number the same as they did the larger one -- let's assume there's another death every three months for the rest of the year. That would give an annualized rate of two point something per 100,000 for 2004. Not a very interesting number for the scare mongers, is it?

"Wait a minute, pinky!" you may cry. "Don't try to pull the wool over our eyes, here. Let's not annualize by calendar year, let's annualize using the data we have from the previous twelve months and a bit -- from March 19, 2003 when the invasion started till March 26, 2004, the last day for which we have data. That way the single suicide in 2004 is not isolated and standing on its own, it's part of the operation that began a year and a week earlier."

Fine, let's do that.

If 23 suicides in 288 days (March 19, 03 - Dec 31, 03) gives an annual rate of 13.5 per 100,000, then 24 suicides in 374 days (March 19, 03 to March 26, 04) gives an annual rate of 10.8 per 100,000 -- assuming a constant number of troops in the theater for the entire time under measurement. And what is the suicide rate for Americans as a whole in 2001, according to the article Swami linked? Why, it's 10.7 per 100,000. What a surprise!

None of the links you provide contradict the DoD's data in the link I provided in my first post in the thread -- an annual suicide rate of 13.5 per 100,000 is the average rate of Army suicides in the last decade and a half, and is less than it has been in several of those years. It is also significantly less than the suicide rate of American men aged 20-34.

Those are the facts, no matter how anyone chooses to spin them.

pinky


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleshriek
*********

Registered: 12/13/03
Posts: 3,274
Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Unusually High [Re: Swami]
    #2575537 - 04/18/04 09:07 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

a suicide rate will always be too high nomatter how small or extreme it is :frown: i dont belong in this forum so im gonna go now :grin: i clicked into wrong forum

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Unusually High [Re: Phred]
    #2576608 - 04/19/04 02:07 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

so you haven't the qualifications necessary to pass judgment on my level of knowledge.

I'm not the one proclaiming 16 professors of international law or the top doctor at the pentagon are wrong. YOU are.

Why should we take your opinion seriously? Can you provide one person in the real world who considers your opinion on these matters to be worth a damn? Has an international lawyer ever been impressed by your knowledge?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Unusually High [Re: Xlea321]
    #2576729 - 04/19/04 03:56 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
so you haven't the qualifications necessary to pass judgment on my level of knowledge.

I'm not the one proclaiming 16 professors of international law or the top doctor at the pentagon are wrong. YOU are.

Why should we take your opinion seriously? Can you provide one person in the real world who considers your opinion on these matters to be worth a damn? Has an international lawyer ever been impressed by your knowledge?



Coming from you.... that's hysterical.

Do you think at all before cramming your foot into your mouth clear up to the knee?

pinky has provided proof, yet once again your mind is made up and no amount of facts will change it.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Unusually High [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2576754 - 04/19/04 04:43 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

:yawn:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
enthusiast
Registered: 04/14/04
Posts: 399
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Unusually High [Re: Xlea321]
    #2576908 - 04/19/04 06:39 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I am new to this part of the forums and I hope I don't step on any toes here, but it seems that pinkysharkmark definatly knows how to judge stats.

What does the word "unusually" mean to you? A deviation from the norm? Wouldn't displaying that it was not deviant disprove that it it is in some manner "unusual"?


Also, I've been reading here more than I"ve been posting just to get a feel for it, but citing the Pentagon as a source here, then denouncing anything that the US Govt says seems slightly hypocritical. Not trying to be a jerk, just giving my two cents worth. Sorry if I sounded mean to ya.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Unusually High [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2576971 - 04/19/04 07:17 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I am new to this part of the forums

You won'tve heard of someone called lysergic/johnnyrespect/enima then...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Unusually High [Re: Xlea321]
    #2578246 - 04/19/04 02:34 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Alex123 writes:

'm not the one proclaiming 16 professors of international law or the top doctor at the pentagon are wrong. YOU are.

See, Alex, unlike you I don't believe everything the media tells me. I like to check things that sound suspicious to me. That's the beauty of living in today's world -- the internet allows me to check things which previously would have required me to fly to Washington and request government files through the Freedom of Information Act. You can check things, too. Isn't the internet wonderful?

Once again we are ever so fortunate to witness your fawning deification of neocon American government officials -- the assistant Sec Def for health affairs (Winkenwerder) becomes in your brainwashed worldview one whose statements we daren't question. Do you believe the good doctor is working with a different set of data than that given in the DoD's records? Because he sure as hell isn't working with the DoD's figures if he claims the 2003 rate is unusually high.

Why should we take your opinion seriously?

Because I provided the data that proves what I say is correct -- presuming one has the mental acuity to comprehend such difficult concepts as "less than", "greater than", and "average".

Can you provide one person in the real world who considers your opinion on these matters to be worth a damn?

It's not my opinion that is at issue, here Alex. It's the data.

-- The data from the links you yourself provided tell us that there have been 24 suicides from the beginning of the US troops entrance of Iraq until March 26, 2004.
-- The data (and grade school arithmetic) tells us that this calculates to a suicide rate of 10.8 per 100,000 for that twelve month (plus one week) period.
-- The data tells us that for the twelve months of calendar year 2002, the rate was 11.1 (note that 10.8 is lower than 11.1), and that the average rate over the last fourteen years is 12.8 ? 0.90, or between 13.7 and 11.9 per 100,000 (please note that 10.8 is also lower than 12.8 ? 0.90).
-- The data tells us that since 1990, the annual suicide rate per 100,000 in the Army has been lower than 10.8 in only two years -- in 1997 when it was 10.6, and 2001 when it was 9.1. In every other year it was higher.
-- The data tells us that in the category of "White, male, 20-24", in 2000 that group had a suicide rate of 22.8 per 100,000, making it the second leading cause of death, exceeded only by accidents. ("White, male, 25-34" had a suicide rate of 22.4; "Black, male, 20-24" was 19.2, and 25-34 was 16.2.) Again, please note that 10.8 is lower than any of these numbers.

But, to answer your question, my opinion is that 10.8 is lower than 11.1. My opinion is that 10.8 is also lower than 12.8. My opinion is that 10.8 is lower than 22.8 or 22.4 or 19.2 or 16.2. Can I provide anyone in the real world who considers my opinion on what constitutes "lower than" worth a damn? Well... I guess I could provide you with the name of my teacher in third grade who routinely gave me perfect scores on tests with questions a lot tougher than that, but it wouldn't do you any good because she's almost certainly been dead for a very long time now.

What's your opinion, Alex? Is it your opinion that 10.8 is higher than 11.1? Would you care to give us your opinion now, or must we wait while you hunt for yet another "expert" to tell you what your opinion is?

You make much of asking people here such questions as "If Bush told you the sky was green with yellow polka dots, would you believe him?" and "If the government told you Elvis was spotted riding the Loch Ness monster yesterday, would you believe it?" I leave it to the readers of this thread to compose their own similar questions regarding your credulity in believing uncritically the demonstrably false pronouncements of -- oh, the irony! -- a neocon American military official.

My advice to you on this one, Alex, is -- let it go. You have no more chance of winning this than you did of winning the famous Slavery thread or the equally famous Three Quarters of the Globe thread.

pinky


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Unusually High [Re: Phred]
    #2578454 - 04/19/04 03:20 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Perhaps the discrepancy lies in whom is doing the reporting and whose figures are most accurate. Your opinion about 10.8 being less than 11 is amusing however:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-03-24-army-suicide-story_x.htm USA TODAY

"Since the war in Iraq began in March 2003, 24 soldiers have committed suicide, an average of about two per month. The suicide rate for Army soldiers in Iraq in 2003 was 15.8 per 100,000, an increase from the Army average of 12.2 for 2003 and 11.9 from 1995-2002."

It is my opinion that 15.8% is about 30% higher than the norm. I wonder how long we can beat this horse! :wink:

BTW, this article is an ancient 3-4 weeks old.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: US Soldiers Suicide Rate Unusually High [Re: Swami]
    #2578572 - 04/19/04 03:56 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Well, Swami, we've got two numbers here for suicide rates -- 13.5 and 15.8. The only one thing that is constant and agreed upon by all is that there have been 24 suicides of troops serving in Iraq in just over a year -- 23 in 2003 and 1 in 2004.

Since I don't have the exact number of troops stationed in Iraq, I calculated with simple math from the figure of 13.5 per 100,000 which was the number quoted repeatedly in the several different links provided by you, me, and Alex. Feel free to check my calculations. You will find it gives a figure of 10.8 per year per 100,000.

Now all of a sudden we have a single report saying that the calculated suicide rate in 2003 is not the 13.5 all the other sources give, but 15.8. This shows that either this latest source has made an error in calculation, or is using a smaller number of total troops in Iraq as a basis for their calculation than those who give us the 13.5 calculation. This could be settled pretty easily if we knew the exact number of US troops stationed in Iraq from March 19, 2003 to March 26, 2004. Got a source for that?

This doesn't change the fact that from March 19, 2003 to December 31, 2003, there were 23 suicides, and from Jan 1, 2004 till March 26, 2004, there was a single suicide. If the suicides in 2004 continue at that rapid clip, the rate for 2004 will be 2.x per 100,000. But will there be multiple news articles about it? Don't hold your breath.

pinky


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: North Spore Bulk Substrate   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Soldier suicides LearyfanS 670 4 10/13/03 11:29 PM
by Xlea321
* The Deadly Truth of Imperialism
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
Eric 4,868 81 11/06/03 06:36 PM
by Anonymous
* Suicide bombers
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
Zahid 5,039 155 12/17/02 11:17 AM
by Anonymous
* 37 soldiers died today
( 1 2 3 4 all )
LearyfanS 2,711 65 01/30/05 04:17 PM
by d33p
* Letters from soldiers in Iraq, to M. Moore... RunDMT 580 1 10/05/04 01:36 PM
by RunDMT
* 600 Sick, Wounded US Soldiers Held in Squalor
( 1 2 all )
Zahid 2,280 31 10/21/03 05:59 PM
by Phred
* For Alex123
( 1 2 3 all )
Anonymous 2,666 41 05/02/03 01:47 AM
by GazzBut
* The New Suicide Bombers Ellis Dee 1,407 13 10/19/02 05:23 PM
by MsPacMan

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
5,422 topic views. 0 members, 1 guests and 11 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.025 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 15 queries.