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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Boogieman47]
#25661252 - 12/06/18 09:24 AM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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I now have evidence Cubensis behaves as brown rot in terms of carbon sources (cellulose + phenols).
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25659712#25659712
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Summary:
Cubensis can and will target phenols as a carbon source, and spend them on enzymes-various to decay other materials. However, decay and utilization reflects that of a brown rot fungi, where browning and partial decay occur.
In terms of a viable speed carbon source, both sugars and starches are generally best. Around 1.5% nitrogen @ pH 7, produces notably vigorous growth.
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Some science:
In order to germinate and then grow out on cellulose (in this case paper pellets) another faster reacting carbon source is required. Complex cellulose, is relatively non-reactive, and slow to decay. The faster reacting carbon source is essential.
The faster reacting carbon source will produce and support growth (where resources are needed). In general, spores will not carry the necessary resource materials to do much.
Easy to decay sources: soluble phenols, starches, sugars, other.
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Paper pellets are like coir, sort of, cellulose based, but without any phenols and other acids. WL-Tek makes use of the lack of easy carbon, and utilizes 'starch' spawn.
Paper pellets are an alternative for coir, if needed.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,890
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Ferather]
#25661566 - 12/06/18 12:13 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Cubes are not brown rot. Not only are they not brown rot but they also don't occupy an ecological niche on rotting wood
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gizmodo
Woodland Creature




Registered: 06/21/18
Posts: 2,064
Loc: Behind You
Last seen: 2 years, 9 months
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: bodhisatta] 2
#25661574 - 12/06/18 12:18 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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-------------------- One must be mindful to maintain their balance on the slippery earth. Bod's Comprehensive Agar Resource Gizmodo's Market Stall Say No To Grow Kits
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tripdawg420
low life with no life



Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 7,071
Loc: illinois
Last seen: 1 day, 20 hours
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: gizmodo] 1
#25661578 - 12/06/18 12:22 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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i wish i was super smart
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,890
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: tripdawg420] 2
#25661645 - 12/06/18 01:01 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brown-rot fungi break down hemicellulose and cellulose that form the wood structure. Cellulose is broken down by hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) that is produced during the breakdown of hemicellulose.[4] Because hydrogen peroxide is a small molecule, it can diffuse rapidly through the wood, leading to a decay that is not confined to the direct surroundings of the fungal hyphae. As a result of this type of decay, the wood shrinks, shows a brown discoloration, and cracks into roughly cubical pieces, a phenomenon termed cubical fracture. The fungi of certain types remove cellulose compounds from wood and hence the wood becomes brown colour.
Try to colonize a log with cubes 
We need an untrusted tag for this shit
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teladi
FUNKSOULBROTHER


Registered: 06/27/17
Posts: 1,189
Loc: South Africa
Last seen: 6 months, 22 days
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: bodhisatta]
#25661668 - 12/06/18 01:11 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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gizmodo
Woodland Creature




Registered: 06/21/18
Posts: 2,064
Loc: Behind You
Last seen: 2 years, 9 months
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: teladi]
#25661671 - 12/06/18 01:11 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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-------------------- One must be mindful to maintain their balance on the slippery earth. Bod's Comprehensive Agar Resource Gizmodo's Market Stall Say No To Grow Kits
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: bodhisatta]
#25661707 - 12/06/18 01:25 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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https://res.mdpi.com/sustainability/sustainability-09-01163/article_deploy/sustainability-09-01163-v2.pdf
On the other hand, the brown-rot fungi are less efficient in degrading lignin compared to white-rot fungi. Lignin degradation by brown- rot fungi mainly involves non-enzymatic oxidation reactions producing hydroxyl radicals via Fenton chemistry. Brown-rot fungi partially oxidize lignin via aromatic ring demethylation. During this process, the phenolic hydroxyl content of the reaction mixture increases due to partial oxidation and partially due to the addition of new carboxyl and carbonyl groups
Brown-rot fungi hydrolyze and partially oxidize the lignocellulose component of the plant cell wall, in contrast to white-rot fungi which produce an array of extracellular lignin-degrading enzymes. During the oxidation process, a hydroxyl ion is generated via Fenton oxidation chemistry.
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: Try to colonize a log with cubes 
Why would I do that, you are just being childish. In terms of decay it does behave like brown rot. I did not say it's a wood loving lingicolous mycelium, stop making assumptions.
Fisrtly the Cubensis would be unlikely to penertrate a wood log. Try growing cyans on a wood log, don't be silly.
All I see is "No it doesn't". Any evidence?
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I have several samples of Cubensis partially oxidizing phenols and utilizing the decay as a carbon source.
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Among these organisms, brown rot fungi are unique in their ability to selectively degrade the cellulose in wood while leaving the polyaromatic lignin portion mainly intact.
https://science.energy.gov/ber/highlights/2017/ber-2017-02-e/
Edited by Ferather (12/06/18 01:30 PM)
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gizmodo
Woodland Creature




Registered: 06/21/18
Posts: 2,064
Loc: Behind You
Last seen: 2 years, 9 months
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Ferather]
#25661725 - 12/06/18 01:29 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Do these look okay fresh from PC? Will shake again when home later tonight or tomorrow morning.
-------------------- One must be mindful to maintain their balance on the slippery earth. Bod's Comprehensive Agar Resource Gizmodo's Market Stall Say No To Grow Kits
Edited by gizmodo (12/06/18 01:34 PM)
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,819
Loc: Canada
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: gizmodo] 2
#25661776 - 12/06/18 01:58 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ferather I think the problem some people have is we don’t know where you’re going with all this. What’s the goal or how is the knowledge useful? Cubes have been observed partially degrading agar. It’s pretty cool but it’s not changed how I use agar or led to any new uses for agar. Same deal here, I see a lot of talk about what cubes may or may not do, a lot of discussion about how they utilize nutrition, but none of it really goes anywhere or tells us anything useful.
The forum is mushroom cultivation and this thread is cultivation general discussion. So far very little of your posts have anything to do with cultivation, assuming the point of cultivation is to at some point produce a fruit. To perpetuate the organism. The endless posts all start to sound the same after a while. Yes there is a picture of a wood peg that was colonized. It was mildly neat the first 25 times you posted it. Now it’s just 
I’m not saying it’s worthless either, but you seem to have a lot to say without saying anything in the end. We know cubes can colonize wood, that’s why we put wood in our slants. I have been colonizing wood with cubes since before you were a member here and it was being done decades before I ever grew a mushroom. It’s not anything new. Frankly for the time and effort you seem to put into all this, I would hope that you had something with more substance to show us. Perhaps your discussions and observations might seem less off topic in advanced mycology.
On this board what generates interest is results. Many a person has come here with mindsets of discovery and being different. But only those who actually can produce a result to support their hypothesis end up generating sustained interest. I’m not trying to be a dick here but frankly I’ve started to tune you out. It’s not interesting anymore without some kind of application.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,819
Loc: Canada
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: gizmodo] 1
#25661785 - 12/06/18 02:02 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
gizmodo said: Do these look okay fresh from PC? Will shake again when home later tonight or tomorrow morning.

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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Pastywhyte]
#25661905 - 12/06/18 03:10 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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I realize my original sentence may have been misleading, I re-phrase:
In terms of phenols, polyphenols and other phenolic compounds (decay and utilization), Cubensis behaves like a brown-rot fungi. Both brown-rot and Cubensis will partially decay and utilize phenols as a carbon source, via oxidation-other.
This does not mean Cubensis is a wood-loving lignicolous mycelium, or grows on logs. The minimal decay, and carbon, acts 'like' a trace sugar source.
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@ Pastywhyte
Ok fair enough, the objective was to understand decay and utilization, in terms of enzymes-reactions and other factors (such as nutrients). I'm certainly not intending to apply phenols as a solution to starch-sugar after further investigation, testing, and research.
If I where able to produce and observe white-rot like decay, the result would likely have been spawn.
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teladi
FUNKSOULBROTHER


Registered: 06/27/17
Posts: 1,189
Loc: South Africa
Last seen: 6 months, 22 days
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Ferather]
#25662965 - 12/07/18 12:46 AM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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I cloned a 43 gram Ecuadorian earlier this year. I've been fruiting the clone over the past month. This morning I picked the largest fruit it has produced till now: 7.01 g
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Bumholio
What's the craic



Registered: 07/23/18
Posts: 4,269
Loc: Shroomsville
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: teladi]
#25663001 - 12/07/18 01:44 AM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
teladi said: I cloned a 43 gram Ecuadorian earlier this year. I've been fruiting the clone over the past month. This morning I picked the largest fruit it has produced till now: 7.01 g 
Lol, I have a lot of questions about cloning but I guess the best way to answer them is to run them I have a GT clone fruiting now which was a bit fucked up. I'm wondering if itll reproduce the fuck up but I doubt it.
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 "great things may come to those who wait, but only what's left by those who hustle"
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Mateja


Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: teladi]
#25663052 - 12/07/18 03:02 AM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
teladi said: I cloned a 43 gram Ecuadorian earlier this year. I've been fruiting the clone over the past month. This morning I picked the largest fruit it has produced till now: 7.01 g 
I've noticed my clones increase in size proportional to the increase in tub/substrate size and spawn amount 
Seems much more environmental than genetic in some ways also sometimes I can't see difference between a MS tub and a cloned one :anothershrug:
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
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teladi
FUNKSOULBROTHER


Registered: 06/27/17
Posts: 1,189
Loc: South Africa
Last seen: 6 months, 22 days
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Mateja]
#25663063 - 12/07/18 03:31 AM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mateah said:
Quote:
teladi said: I cloned a 43 gram Ecuadorian earlier this year. I've been fruiting the clone over the past month. This morning I picked the largest fruit it has produced till now: 7.01 g 
I've noticed my clones increase in size proportional to the increase in tub/substrate size and spawn amount 
Seems much more environmental than genetic in some ways also sometimes I can't see difference between a MS tub and a cloned one :anothershrug:
You've hit the nail on it's hammer, at least in my reasoning. Humidity on my side has been really low - 15-25% - and high temps - low 30s - make for difficult to keep moist substrates. The clone was done on MS BRF, and I have been fruiting them on BRF now. Their environment is indeed different.
But, since an MS fruit usually has multiple strains in it, I may have pulled out a fruiter, but small sized one. I should try the clone in a tub, or get the plates out of storage and see if I can redo the whole process.
I love this hobby, always something new.
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Failboat
Fuck Up

Registered: 02/01/18
Posts: 8,736
Last seen: 6 days, 8 hours
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: teladi]
#25663364 - 12/07/18 08:47 AM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yeah I think it is largely based on environment, but I chose a clone for a solid stipe. I'll have fruits within a week.
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Failboat
Fuck Up

Registered: 02/01/18
Posts: 8,736
Last seen: 6 days, 8 hours
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Failboat]
#25663553 - 12/07/18 11:11 AM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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I'm considering making an LC in a media bottle. I imagine I can just use some ME and water, inoculate, allow for growth, shake vigorously, and pour into grain jars etc. It's been a while since I played with LC and now I'm much better at sterile procedures. Has anyone used a media bottle with success?
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teladi
FUNKSOULBROTHER


Registered: 06/27/17
Posts: 1,189
Loc: South Africa
Last seen: 6 months, 22 days
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Failboat]
#25663560 - 12/07/18 11:15 AM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yep, Quirk, I use 250ml Schotts exclusively for LC. I modify the lids and put some polyfill through a drilled hole. Some broken up glass in the bottle helps agitation.
I'm real keen on getting the lids with the membrane which allows for GE.
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Failboat
Fuck Up

Registered: 02/01/18
Posts: 8,736
Last seen: 6 days, 8 hours
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: teladi]
#25663564 - 12/07/18 11:17 AM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Cool im going to give it a try then. I will just loosen the lid like when using unmodded lids on jars.
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