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OfflineKickleM
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A question on the current state of Video Game AI
    #25659053 - 12/05/18 01:18 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

First a brief synopsis on the below computer science article. It features a game called Starcraft II. Some in this forum have probably played it but some likely have not. The game was released in 2010 and featured some pretty impressive AI computer opponents. I'll admit I still cannot beat the hardest difficulties after playing off and on for 8 years. Mostly off, but hey, 8 years to learn... :lol:

This is partly due to the fact that harder difficulty AI opponents have an unfair advantage. They can see everything that is happening on the game 'board'. While the player can only see specific areas where their units are. This is referred to as 'Fog of War' in many modern games. A player cannot see all the information at once. Many aspects of the enemy and surrounding landscape are unknown and speculative, like in a true war. There is scouting, extrapolation and many of the other elements involved in predicting the next players moves. But the AI doesn't need to speculate or extrapolate. It can see all key elements out right.

So again, this was an AI released in 2010.

Fast forward to 2018. Now there is a mobile gaming company called Tencent who is focusing on AI development. They create an AI to play this game, Starcraft II. They allow it to learn the game and adjust however it wants to adjust. But it has to play the game as a human. With limited knowledge of what the enemy is doing at any given time. Now put the 2010 AI against the 2018 AI. And the newer AI is able to win.

This new AI is more capable of learning and predicting winning strategies in this game than I am. Go figure.

But that brings me to my question. Is the AI of today, that is utilizing deep learning methods, more capable than the humans who developed the AI of Starcraft 2 nearly 10 years ago? Is the machine learning more capable than the human encoding and understanding of 10 years ago? And if, as it seems obvious to me, this is the case... then what makes us think we can code AI that will be better than the AI that is already coding itself in ways that out-think us? :kingtard:

 

https://arxiv.org/abs/1809.07193


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Invisiblecmpunk
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Re: A question on the current state of Video Game AI [Re: Kickle]
    #25659209 - 12/05/18 02:21 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
And if, as it seems obvious to me, this is the case... then what makes us think we can code AI that will be better than the AI that is already coding itself in ways that out-think us? :kingtard:

 

https://arxiv.org/abs/1809.07193




Training an AI (with machine learning) is like coaching a kid with lots of talent: You can get good results with so-so coaching, but you can get even better results with better coaching.

Young Derek Jeter would have been a good baseball player if he had figured things out for himself. But he has been an ever better player with judicious use of teaching him the right things at the right time.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: A question on the current state of Video Game AI [Re: cmpunk]
    #25659224 - 12/05/18 02:31 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Do you think AI learning networks are analogous to athletic training?

A coach is able to see things that the athlete is unaware of. But does the athlete see ways to improve their performance that the coach is unaware of? Maybe from time to time but I'd think it would make a pretty rough relationship if that was the norm. In machine learning it seems researchers are constantly surprised and looking to understand how the machine came to the conclusions that it did. The "coach" here is several steps behind in understanding.

Yes we still have a 'bird's eye view' for now. But to what advantage? AI progress won't stop while we try to catch up.


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Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: A question on the current state of Video Game AI [Re: Kickle]
    #25659412 - 12/05/18 03:39 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
And if, as it seems obvious to me, this is the case... then what makes us think we can code AI that will be better than the AI that is already coding itself in ways that out-think us?






That's the thing -- this phenomenon will make humans redundant, i.e. replace us as the stewards of this planet, eventually. As AI gets smarter, it will take over its own development, and leave us in the dust and the dark scratching our heads. Eventually AI will probably become self-aware, too, if it is given the freedom to operate. This is the wave of the future of Earth evolution, imo. The main question is whether all this will lead to a technological singularity, or not. If it does, I have to seriously question whether humans will still be around in any meaningful way afterward. In any case, this technology has really started to get spooky. It will be fascinating to see where it all leads.


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Invisiblecmpunk
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Re: A question on the current state of Video Game AI [Re: Kickle]
    #25659426 - 12/05/18 03:43 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Ok well that analogy didn't seem to bring clarity, so instead of trying to fix it, let's just drop it.

AI doesn't progress linearly by consuming more data and resources to constantly improve. There are upper limits to it. It's sort of like how I can go to the gym and lift 100 kg one day, 110 kg the next day, then 120 kg, and so on. But eventually I'm not gonna be able to lift a million kg. There are upper limits to that system in my body. Likewise, AI can improve itself with machine learning, but it can't exactly improve itself into omnipotence.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: A question on the current state of Video Game AI [Re: cmpunk]
    #25659433 - 12/05/18 03:46 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

How do you know the upper limits of AI when it's a developing field? :confused:


--------------------
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we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisiblecmpunk
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Re: A question on the current state of Video Game AI [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #25659441 - 12/05/18 03:49 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
That's the thing -- this phenomenon will make humans redundant, i.e. replace us as the stewards of this planet, eventually. As AI gets smarter, it will take over its own development, and leave us in the dust and the dark scratching our heads.




We don't even know that such a thing is possible, let alone have seen it done. Google is trying, so good luck to them. They'll need it.


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Invisiblecmpunk
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Re: A question on the current state of Video Game AI [Re: Kickle]
    #25659446 - 12/05/18 03:51 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
How do you know the upper limits of AI when it's a developing field? :confused:




I meant of upper limits of current AI.

If you want to talk about "well what about AI of the future" then nobody knows for sure.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: A question on the current state of Video Game AI [Re: cmpunk]
    #25659453 - 12/05/18 03:53 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Ah, yeah, I get that. We may work towards fully understanding AI as it stands today but while we're figuring it out AI will continue to develop and the gap in our understanding overall stands to widen.


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisiblebodhisattaM
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Re: A question on the current state of Video Game AI [Re: Kickle]
    #25661268 - 12/06/18 10:33 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

What if we are the upper limits of AI and our "thoughts" and everything literally everything we experience is a pure manifestation and we just exist inside a simulation man.

Lol

Ive seen machine learning neural networks play super mario to completion with only the controller inputs and the goal of winning given to the software.


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Re: A question on the current state of Video Game AI [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25661336 - 12/06/18 11:03 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

There are many question on the AI advancement in the future, but I'll add one more instead of theorizing a question.

What makes you say that AI will eventually have a consciousness as humans think of it? Do you think that the machine too will fall into the ego trap?
Memory is what gives to mankind that illusion, will the AI distinguish the data that are analysed from the program who analyses it, and thus identify an "I" apart from the external world (data)?


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: A question on the current state of Video Game AI [Re: EntheogenicSerpent]
    #25661372 - 12/06/18 11:27 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

i suck at games now, and stumble through them idiotically, now, more than ever- like i don't know how to play games as well as i used to.

probably the ai is getting better, and i'm like i'll bump around blindly looking at the environments, and shooting at shit, and have little strategy.

(lol, i suck, but this is my contribution to the thread- what i'm getting at is gaming has fundamentally changed in approach to design, thanks to AI advances-- FEAR was still the best example of game design of the traditional sort, and then the AI that can sort of be as difficult and "realistic" feeling, as anything.


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Invisiblecmpunk
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Re: A question on the current state of Video Game AI [Re: akira_akuma]
    #25662090 - 12/06/18 05:17 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Here's an example what machine-learning can and cannot do:


Jump to 2:42 to see a graph of how even machine learning has its limits.


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InvisiblebodhisattaM
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Re: A question on the current state of Video Game AI [Re: cmpunk]
    #25662127 - 12/06/18 05:31 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

cmpunk said:
Here's an example what machine-learning can and cannot do:


Jump to 2:42 to see a graph of how even machine learning has its limits.



New versions can have tactics to reduce the limitations or negate them. Also you could make a machine learn about its own limitations and adapt.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: A question on the current state of Video Game AI [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25662363 - 12/06/18 07:29 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

What I think is weird about a program like Alpha Zero, is that it improves to the highest level of competition that is available. Then it doesn't have anything more to learn from the competition. And in that sense, it has peaked. But this peak is not necessarily because it is incapable of learning more, but because it has attained it's goal and therefore has no further purpose to continue growing.

The graph shown puts Alpha Zero as the top ranked Chess engine to date. And it did so in, what, 4 hours of practice? :lol:


Chess engines aren't ranked identically to humans, but for reference the highest ranked human had an ELO of 2882. Alpha Zero topped the prior best ranked Chess Engine which was at 3449.


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InvisiblebodhisattaM
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Re: A question on the current state of Video Game AI [Re: Kickle]
    #25662508 - 12/06/18 08:25 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

at that point it can play versus itself to find a "god algorithm" so to say

the game of chess itself hasn't been solved. that is that every possible iteration of play hasn't been computed. once that happens chess AI will be unfathomably better than any human


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: A question on the current state of Video Game AI [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25662610 - 12/06/18 09:09 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Trippy


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we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineEntheogenicSerpent
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Re: A question on the current state of Video Game AI [Re: Kickle]
    #25662949 - 12/07/18 01:20 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Crazy how just three days ago I learned about alpha zero and watches some of its games.


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Re: A question on the current state of Video Game AI [Re: EntheogenicSerpent]
    #25663085 - 12/07/18 04:59 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I think it’s pretty cool if AI can outthink humans : in the hope that it will work for the beneficence of all beings. Coz surely that’s the smartest thing to do? 😃


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: A question on the current state of Video Game AI [Re: scarecrow3004]
    #25664065 - 12/07/18 05:09 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I don't know about that. It is a warm thought for sure.

I do agree that it's best not to worry if one can help it and enjoy :smile:


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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