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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Bad guys and Evil-doers
    #2559641 - 04/14/04 04:15 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

WITHOUT making this a political discussion, I contend that from a purely subjective point of view, (almost) no one perceives of themselves as a terrorist, criminal, evil-doer, or bad guy no matter how heinous the act.

Eat mushrooms? It is your God-given right regardless of the the current laws.

Deface a bulletin board? The greedy corporation deserves it.

Speeding? No one obeys the traffic laws.

Lie? *Insert any of a thousand rationalizations here*

Cheat on your taxes? The government is nothing but a thief anyway.

Cheat on your spouse? Well if he /she took listened to you, satisfied you sexually and emotionally and hadn't let themselves get fat; you wouldn't have to look elsewhere.

Rob a 7/11. Well, if you weren't a descendent from a slave and society had given you an equal opportunity, you wouldn't have to resort to such an act merely to survive.

Aggravated assault? The jerk cut you off on the road and needed to be taught a lesson.

Embezzle funds? You got passed over for a well-deserved promotion several times and besides, the company made all kinds of money from your ideas.

Kill your wife? The cheating bitch deserved what she got.

Genocide? Jews or Negroes or ? are inferior and must be wiped out.

Go to war and bomb innocent children? Just listen to the current rhetoric.

Rationalization means that no one is ever guilty in their own mind.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Bad guys and Evil-doers [Re: Swami]
    #2559837 - 04/14/04 04:50 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

So, what then? Should we have a universal system for what is right and wrong?

who is judging now anyway? You, or the environment around you, god?

So it goes back the problem of definition, who will hold the meaning. Reality and truth...  :yesnod:  :headbang:


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
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Re: Bad guys and Evil-doers [Re: Swami]
    #2559839 - 04/14/04 04:51 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Eat mushrooms? It is your God-given right regardless of the the current laws.
Deface a bulletin board? The greedy corporation deserves it.


Oh no... I know damn well these are criminal acts.
I just have no moral qualms about it. With the exception of lying, I haven't done any of the other things. And the lying I do is minimal... and it's mostly for softening blows to people's egos, so whatever.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Bad guys and Evil-doers [Re: Swami]
    #2560022 - 04/14/04 05:22 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Your premise ignores the existence of a couple emotions called guilt and remorse.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleSwami
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Posts: 15,413
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Re: Bad guys and Evil-doers [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2560026 - 04/14/04 05:23 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I don't have the answers, but one's actions should at least be consistent with one's current belief system. But even violating one's basic tenets is not enough to set off any internal alarms, one just immediately changes the "rules" by adding a sub-clause. Anything at all rather than face oneself and the consequences of one's actions.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Bad guys and Evil-doers [Re: Sclorch]
    #2560036 - 04/14/04 05:26 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Oh no... I know damn well these are criminal acts.
I just have no moral qualms about it.


I was talking to those trying to live a moral life, not the bull-horn shouting, devil-may-care, degenerate social anarchists like yourself.  :stoned:


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Bad guys and Evil-doers [Re: silversoul7]
    #2560059 - 04/14/04 05:30 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Your premise ignores the existence of an emotion called guilt.

Almost all evil-doers only feel guilt and remorse AFTER being caught. Yes, there is the rare exception like the one sinner (out of 30,000,000 viewers of The Passion) who turned himself in.

Guilt is just a subtler from of rationalization. "Gee, if I feel guilty, that somehow balances out my sinful act." Guilt rarely precludes anyone from doing the same thing repeatedly and as such, is a useless emotion.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Bad guys and Evil-doers [Re: Swami]
    #2560084 - 04/14/04 05:35 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Every time I lie to my parents, I feel guilty as I'm doing it. And what about the alcoholic who knows they shouldn't have another drink but does anyway? Also, I strongly disagree with you're assertion that almost all of them only feel guilty after being caught. The reason why large-scale conspiracies are hard to pull off is because somebody inevitably becomes racked with guilt and confesses. What happens after getting caught is called SHAME, not guilt.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Bad guys and Evil-doers [Re: Swami]
    #2560120 - 04/14/04 05:40 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Yes, there is the rare exception like the one sinner (out of 30,000,000 viewers of The Passion) who turned himself in.

Yeah, I killed Jesus. I'm so sorry.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

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Re: Bad guys and Evil-doers [Re: silversoul7]
    #2560124 - 04/14/04 05:41 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Swami: Guilt rarely precludes anyone from doing the same thing repeatedly

SS: Every time I lie to my parents, I feel guilty as I'm doing it.


I rest my case.


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Bad guys and Evil-doers [Re: silversoul7]
    #2560143 - 04/14/04 05:44 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

What happens after getting caught is called SHAME, not guilt.

Webster

shame    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (shm)
n.

A painful emotion caused by a strong sense of guilt.



I stand corrected.  :rolleyes:


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OfflineScarfmeister
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Re: Bad guys and Evil-doers [Re: Swami]
    #2560165 - 04/14/04 05:47 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I think most people bar the occasional sociopath knows exactly when they are doing something wrong and what it is they are doing. I know that sometimes i do things that could be called evil.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Bad guys and Evil-doers [Re: Swami]
    #2560214 - 04/14/04 06:00 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Shame is a public form of guilt. A person can feel guilty without feeling ashamed.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Bad guys and Evil-doers [Re: Swami]
    #2560578 - 04/14/04 07:36 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"Almost all evil-doers only feel guilt and remorse AFTER being caught."
I am not going to go into detail about criminal psychology, but I think you are wrong here. I'd say the oposite, that they feel guilt BEFORE being caught and when they do not even get caught. Even though this guilt may represent itself in a manner of manifestations of human behavior, it is present in almost all criminals, even if they feel their crime was 'right'.... I can see it now: Swami comeback with a witty " and now YOU are the expert on criminal mind behavior"...


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Bad guys and Evil-doers [Re: Swami]
    #2560605 - 04/14/04 07:44 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Well since i dont believe in free will, thus whatever i did is what i had to do at that moment, then i cant be held responsible for my actions, because i had no control over my actions, thus if evil exists and i am guilty of it, its God's fault!!!! or the systems fault!!! Though if i am the system or an aspect of they system, then i guess u could argue that i have some responisbility, but i still couldnt have done different, then what i did.


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
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Re: Bad guys and Evil-doers [Re: Swami]
    #2560696 - 04/14/04 08:07 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

So your not saying that people in general do not take responsibility... even for their own rules? They just change the grounds of their beliefs... so they can be right?

Are there no exccuses? or is it just that... people are always making excuses?

ever been to lubys?


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Registered: 01/30/03
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Re: Bad guys and Evil-doers [Re: Swami]
    #2560971 - 04/14/04 09:53 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

In my psych class, we were talking about defense mechanisms and the teacher tried to make a point that you (edit: omission) -don't- always use them when you are in the wrong.

"Excuse me," I asked, "but why would you need to defend something that was wrong..."

The teacher fumbled and told me to stop putting big holes in my ears.

The point is that if you rationalize, you KNOW you are in the wrong. Else you wouldn't need to defend your position. That is why I don't lie about my drug use or vandalism.

Basically it boils down to this:

People don't do things that they think are wrong. If they were wrong they wouldn't do them. Rationalization = convincing your self that you are in the right. If you must rationalize, don't do it.


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--\-/----


Edited by SpecialEd (04/14/04 11:15 PM)


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OfflineScarfmeister
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Re: Bad guys and Evil-doers [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2561253 - 04/14/04 11:11 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Well sometimes people dont share you moral values and will question your actions based on their own moral code. A vegetarian might question my need to eat meat so i rationalize my need to do it in order to clarify my own point o view.
So by that standard basically anything is wrong and i can never defend my on morals of believes.

Not having the need to rationalize sounds good on paper but is totally flawed as a concept.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Bad guys and Evil-doers [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2561265 - 04/14/04 11:13 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

While you make a good point, I think that rationalization plays two roles.
1. A person may rationalize when they have done something they feel is wrong.
2. A person may rationalize when they have done something they feel is right, but wrong according to society/the law/whatever.

Anyhoo....


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Bad guys and Evil-doers [Re: Sclorch]
    #2561290 - 04/14/04 11:18 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

1. A person may rationalize when they have done something they feel is wrong.





That's what I was trying to say...see the edit and it may be more clear

Quote:

2. A person may rationalize when they have done something they feel is right, but wrong according to society/the law/whatever.





I don't know. Those that know don't say I wouldn't try to rationalize smoking a joint if a Christian Conservative caught me and demanded me to explain my actions. I'd walk away.


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  /l_l\/
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