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mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
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Coir as a nutrient source
#25521902 - 10/08/18 01:00 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Here's a simple question,
Has it been PROVEN that coco coir provides ANY nutritional value as a substrate component for cubensis culture? Is there even strong evidence to the above?
In other words, is coir just a media to hold the grain, flour, bran etc. that are used as food sources?
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
Edited by mary fairchild (10/08/18 02:36 PM)
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gizmodo
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I would say that fruit growing out of coir seems to prove it provides a food source.
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Shroomspective
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: gizmodo]
#25521933 - 10/08/18 01:13 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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The mushrooms are growing out of the grain based food source, coir is inert as a substance and holds no nutritional value. That's why its good as a substrate that retains water for the mycelium to use during growth and fruiting
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van hatton
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: gizmodo]
#25521935 - 10/08/18 01:14 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Coir is more used for its ability. To retain water and also doesnt germinate mold spores very well.
While i think ive read theres some nutes its very very little.
Living mycelium loves coir. Mold or mushrooms
-------------------- If I ever give out misinformation please inform me so I can have the correct information.
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elasticaltiger
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: van hatton]
#25521982 - 10/08/18 01:42 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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RR said a couple times that coir does provide nutrients. Lignen content of coir has been measured as high as 32%. Not sure how much cubensis depend on lignen for a food source. My understanding has always been that grains provide probably 95 percent of the nutrion while coir provides water and some lignen.
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Shroomspective
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mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
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Thanks Y'all, & Hi ET!
From the abstract of the article (thank you Shrooms)- looks like A. bisporus uses lignin as a food source but is it a major food source?, cuz if so- with lignin at up to 32% in coir it sort of muddies the water in believing that coir is only a minor nute source for shrooms, regardless i'll take it that coir is a very minor food source for cubes. Surprising that carbs were only slightly consumed.
Just wanted some clarification on cubes.
Im doing a comparison experiment hpoo vs coir as the main substrate component in the culture of Panaeolus. It's known that Pans could be fruited from a coir based sub. as well as a poo based sub. I think that poo is a far superior sub component than coir; also that poo may be the major nute source, even that Pans can be grown without any grains. Have some experiments lined up.
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
Edited by mary fairchild (10/08/18 03:02 PM)
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
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the lignin and hemi cellulose is perfect food for fungi and as long as sufficient nitrogen and manganese(cubensis can make manganese peroxidase for exactly this reason) cubensis has no problem breaking down coir as a food source. the only draw back is the timeframe we have in our grows and the way we use coir dosent give the mycelium enough time to work on the coir before fruiting stalls because of ph issues. as mycelium digest the substrate a by product is the conjugate acid ammonia nh4, this alters ph and stalls fruiting long before nutrients run out, this happens as an esential part of the nitrogen and carbon cycle are missing.... bacteria that break down nh4 ammonia ready to be uptaken by plants, so ph balance is the deciding factor.
with a little effort you can get around the time frame constraint but is more work and as we only really go 2 then done isnt worth it in my opinion, unless say u want to reduce ur spawn and increase BE then improving the digestibility of coir is a winner
lycing coir ( repeated freeze and thawing) and/or cooking coir makes it even easier for the mycelium to work on,as does a lime bath.( lignin is tough but breaks down in an alkaline enviroment)
the only thing off with coir is the carbon to nitrogen ratio of coir( 100:1) but when combined with grain spawn brings it into perfect parameters
edit:
Quote:
Surprising that carbs were only slightly consumed.
btw hemicellulose is the carbs for cubensis, they use nitrogen to break it down into simple sugars that is used to create atp at the cells
coir also contains small amounts of:- Nitrogen Phosphorous Calcium Magnesium Sulphur Copper Zinc Manganese Molybdenum Boron Iron
and more than usable amount of potassium.
think of it like a supplement and combined with whole oats you get a good amount of bran that is high in manganese to which is very useful to cubensis to create manganese peroxidase and activly break the bonds of the hemi cellulose
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Edited by mustangbob3 (10/08/18 03:32 PM)
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Shroomspective
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3]
#25522278 - 10/08/18 03:38 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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This is great info
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Shroomspective
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So what about the age old Gypsum (calcium sulfate dihydrate) question? Does this have any advantage for mycelium, From what I've seen there may be a benefit on the calcium side
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



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Quote:
Shroomspective said: So what about the age old Gypsum (calcium sulfate dihydrate) question? Does this have any advantage for mycelium, From what I've seen there may be a benefit on the calcium side
for calcium yes but our subs are not really lacking in calcium anyhow. years ago people thought it was a ph buffer and would prolong the inevitable acidification of the sub but in reality gypsum is very poor at touching ph
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Shroomspective
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3]
#25522304 - 10/08/18 03:45 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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That makes a lot of sense So the conclusion is there is no benefit adding it to any grow? Are there any other readily available PH buffers that would improve acidification or is it still not worth the added effort for 2 flushes?
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
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Quote:
Shroomspective said: That makes a lot of sense So the conclusion is there is no benefit adding it to any grow? Are there any other readily available PH buffers that would improve acidification or is it still not worth the added effort for 2 flushes?

u got it, if makes u feel better and feel ur getting a benefit from it go ahead, maybe the fruits might accumilate extra calcium and provide u with a benefit but the fungus i dont feel it does.
and right on again why play with ph when its two and done and we get canopies at that so how can u physically gain more fruits? the sub can only support so much fruits and i feel we are reaching that limit as it is and a little proof of that is when u have a killer pinset the sub struggles to support them all and lots dont mature or u get lots but smaller fruits. the weight out changes little really, simply put we only have so much surface to pin from and only so many the sub can support so i really think the current teks are reaching the upper limits of what is possible.
only improvemnet could be stretching the flushes out more but its easier just to make more tubs to replace old ones rather than leave them flushing imo weigh up cost and time and after two flush ur better off with a new tub and ditch the old one
if u are determined to go that route you would need find away of using up the nh4 ( ie a bacteria) and then also efficiently providing h20 to support the fruits. maybe possible but again is it worth it, is it not easier to spawn some more jars to fresh sub.
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Caps McGee
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3]
#25522331 - 10/08/18 03:55 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Water retention basically...
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Shroomspective
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3]
#25522333 - 10/08/18 03:55 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Awesome info, thanks for the detailed explanations
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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no problem, was just a breif edited summary for brevity but will give u lots to leap off from if u was so inclined 
but would prob lead u down into a mental cul de sac
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Edited by mustangbob3 (10/08/18 04:12 PM)
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Wing
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Coir has nutrients or mycelium wouldn't colonize it well. It isn't super nutritious or it would contaminate easier and probably be colonized slower since mycelium has less need to expand for food. It holds water well.
I think the thousands of successful grows on coir just on this site alone is proof enough
-------------------- My Old Grow Logs
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Caps McGee
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Wing]
#25522353 - 10/08/18 04:03 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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It has a few nutrients, but the grain contains more than the mycelium will consume throughout the life of the substrate, and the nutrients in the coir are Nowhere near as readily available as already colonized/cooked grain... it's main contribution is holding water. So in short, the answer is "yes, but it's not what we use it for " lol
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Caps McGee] 1
#25522424 - 10/08/18 04:29 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Im doing a comparison experiment hpoo vs coir as the main substrate component in the culture of Panaeolus. It's known that Pans could be fruited from a coir based sub. as well as a poo based sub. I think that poo is a far superior sub component than coir; also that poo may be the major nute source, even that Pans can be grown without any grains. Have some experiments lined up
hpoo and straw both provide plenty even with really low spawn ratios, at the cost on more time and more risk of a contam taking hold cos the said time.
just look at edible grows u can lower the spawn ratio to tiny amounts compared to us and still pull weight.
we use high spawn ratios mainly for speed, for quicker grows and to out compete contams.
no-one ever said its purely for nutrition as that would be clearly false.( just look at how much unused nutes are left in the grain of a spent sub, we are over egging it but for good reason)
more spawn equals faster returns and less risk and give the fungi an easy meal but it the grains are reduced in half you can still pull the same weight out of a tub.
test with an isolate only diff is time, the results are pretty much the same all other parameters the same, again the sub can only support so many fruits and it certainly dont need all that grain to achieve its upper limit.
however keep using lots spawn as its one less risk and faster returns.
i havent tested but by the lignin content of coir even with low spawn ratios i would imagine good results, albeit slower, IF enough nitrogen is included in the sub.
if myc can use hemicellulose in hpoo and straw as a primary nutrient source it can coir i would imagine
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mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 792
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3]
#25522550 - 10/08/18 05:10 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Glad I came back to this tread, thanks much for this in depth commentary Mustang.
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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no probs glad if i helped and sorry to go on..
thank u for a nice thread, i enjoy these kinds of topics
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,915
Loc: Milky way
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Here is my take. Grains are obviously a nutrient source. i get half ounce dried fruits on the 4th+ flush sometimes a 6th flush will even put out a couple half oz monsters. so if there is still enough energy 4-6 flushes in to put out a couple of zips dry. Either one of two things is what I can logically deduce from that. Either we come no where near effectively using the energy/nutrients in spawn before the grow goes south and we have a huge over abundance of nutrition. Or the coir is nutritional.
Either way even being my scientifically orientated questioning self I don't worry about which one is the case. I would like to know but I don't think we could really find out without doing genetic knockout studies what would take years and thousands of trials to do empirically.
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: bodhisatta] 1
#25522576 - 10/08/18 05:18 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: Here is my take. Grains are obviously a nutrient source. i get half ounce dried fruits on the 4th+ flush sometimes a 6th flush will even put out a couple half oz monsters. so if there is still enough energy 4-6 flushes in to put out a couple of zips dry. Either one of two things is what I can logically deduce from that. Either we come no where near effectively using the energy/nutrients in spawn before the grow goes south and we have a huge over abundance of nutrition. Or the coir is nutritional.
Either way even being my scientifically orientated questioning self I don't worry about which one is the case. I would like to know but I don't think we could really find out without doing genetic knockout studies what would take years and thousands of trials to do empirically.
my point exactly, we have far more nutes in the spawn than needed BUT helps us with faster colonisation ect reducing risk and over time we gain nute from the coir.
i think of grains as a big mac and coir as a slow release energy.
either way what stops our fruiting after x flushes is NOT lack of nutes its purely from acidification
really the turning point would be to control ph and h20 to give the time for us to make the most of the potential flushes but its easier to make a new tub with fresh spawn for production reasons, but if u only rock one tub a year i can see how stretching it out too eek the most out would be valuable and certainly possible.
for few years i have researched bacteria and adding it too subs to create a symbiosis to allow the ammonia to be stabilized in the sub and prevent acidification, bodhi u might remmber my hydroponic mushrooms , i used rock wool block and injected it with lc then fruited using a ceramic watering spike feeding brewing wort, this was successful as it only fed what the mushrooms could draw by osmotic pressure and used the active transport mechanisms of fungi as the power source, the myc colonised the ceramic pores like u see on terracotta pots for plants and allowed the myc to draw nuterient as its own rate never under fed or over fed, but i never developed a better nute medium, this acidification was the downfall of my project in the end.
now and then i go back and play but still trying to find the perfect nirtogen fixing baceteria that will cohabit with our cubes
with unlimited nute and h20 i wasnt able to perpetually produce fruits as damage to the pinning platform and in the end acidification
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Edited by mustangbob3 (10/08/18 05:42 PM)
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3] 2
#25522641 - 10/08/18 05:40 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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In the yeast sciences behind beer ive read there's been successful fermentations using brewing wort that's carefully dosed with ammonium hydroxide. Which supplies nitrogen for growth as well as brings the pH back into a range.
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: bodhisatta]
#25522653 - 10/08/18 05:43 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: In the yeast sciences behind beer ive read there's been successful fermentations using brewing wort that's carefully dosed with ammonium hydroxide. Which supplies nitrogen for growth as well as brings the pH back into a range.
amazing thanks for that!
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3] 2
#25522666 - 10/08/18 05:50 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Drinking a product made with ammonium hydroxide sounds pretty terrible despite ammonium and hydroxide ions already being a normal. Just the addition of something so caustic sounds bad. I think it was done in experiments dealing with attenuation% to get better ethanol yeilds. I doubt anyone besides unsuspecting scientist's co workers had to try any though. Miller was owned by Phillip Morris and did a shitload of research back in the 70s. Stuff that got used in other industries with Miller pattents. Fuel ethanol, weed extracts, keeping things sanitary in space, keeping food spoilage free in space, keeping shelf life stability for taste and appearance last longer (in space). Etc...
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: bodhisatta]
#25522709 - 10/08/18 06:10 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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bodhi...
concidering with current teks we are most likely pushing the limit of what is possible to produce over two flushes, what would u advise other to look into regarding improving teks?
to me the only improvement can come from: h20 supply nute supply and usage more flushes before done
what would you look at to improve on current teks?
its not a trick question im genuinely interested in what you consider the frontier of the hobby and how we can all move forward
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Caps McGee
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3]
#25522717 - 10/08/18 06:14 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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I've seen decent 6th and 7th flushes with clean spawn, 1:1 feild capacity coir only
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Caps McGee]
#25522726 - 10/08/18 06:18 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Caps McGee said: I've seen decent 6th and 7th flushes with clean spawn, 1:1 feild capacity coir only
and thats perfect proof that after 2 we not hardly touched the nutes, and thats the point the deminishing returns are not for lack of nutes but from build up of by products that hamper fruiting.
with current teks we can only go as far as that or face deminishing returns because of ph rather than used up nutes
going by nutes alone we should be able to pull 4 or more canopies a tub easy.
but acidification and damage to the pinning platform is the limiting factor
most of us do two flushes and call it done but in reality we not doing well at that and are wasting lots potential, two canopies is not cutting it in reality, the potential is much greater.
now how to unlock that potential and its NOT more nutes
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Edited by mustangbob3 (10/08/18 06:24 PM)
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Caps McGee
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3] 1
#25522788 - 10/08/18 06:51 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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It's more time: IME, each subsequent flush after 2nd takes longer and longer, and produces less and less per, I guess the idea behind 2 and toss is time efficiency vs cost of resources, more sense (for someone with time constraints)to get the 2 fastest and most efficient flushes done, and replace it with a new substrate that will fall right in line... I don't distribute (not a huge market here, I can't give them away lol) and have a bunch, so I fruit them til the wheels fall off
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Asura
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Caps McGee]
#25522793 - 10/08/18 06:53 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Caps McGee said: It's more time: IME, each subsequent flush after 2nd takes longer and longer, and produces less and less per, I guess the idea behind 2 and toss is time efficiency vs cost of resources, more sense (for someone with time constraints)to get the 2 fastest and most efficient flushes done, and replace it with a new substrate that will fall right in line
Chucking everything after 2nd flush to an outdoor bed is what I've been doing. I usually get some really big fruits from those outdoor flushes...but not many.
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Caps McGee
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Asura]
#25522796 - 10/08/18 06:54 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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I do like the outdoor frootz!
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Caps McGee]
#25522799 - 10/08/18 06:55 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Caps McGee said: It's more time: IME, each subsequent flush after 2nd takes longer and longer, and produces less and less per, I guess the idea behind 2 and toss is time efficiency vs cost of resources, more sense (for someone with time constraints)to get the 2 fastest and most efficient flushes done, and replace it with a new substrate that will fall right in line
yes this mimics what i said earlier, when u weigh up the work + time and then fruits out a fresh tub spawned with a new sub is always going to win on a timed basis and for production numbers will always be the best route, my hypothetical scenario was aimed at a person 'rocking one tub a year and wanting get them most from it' and under these constraints how to get them most from the one sub
but in essense we on the same page
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Caps McGee
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3]
#25522808 - 10/08/18 06:59 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Just keep it going... be meticulous with spawn generation, and give it what it needs... I've had one sit and do nothing for 5-6 days... didn't green, so I kept an eye on it... came home to a few pins, and 5 days later pulled a dry half oz... (shoebox, 4th flush)
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Caps McGee
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Caps McGee]
#25522810 - 10/08/18 07:00 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think the culture tires out to be honest
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Caps McGee]
#25522825 - 10/08/18 07:06 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Caps McGee said: Just keep it going... be meticulous with spawn generation, and give it what it needs... I've had one sit and do nothing for 5-6 days... didn't green, so I kept an eye on it... came home to a few pins, and 5 days later pulled a dry half oz... (shoebox, 4th flush)
i have kept them going and the law of deminishing returns always creeps in, i have had countless tubs go the full way until they wont put no more out, no contam or anything just stopped, i have even left that sub about for few weeks after just to see and still no contam, if ur spawn clean u wont get contams , but u will ALWAYs see the law of deminishing returns long before nutes run out.
Quote:
I think the culture tires out to be honest 
senesence dont happen in the space of one grow and the viability of a culture last years and years, in our subs the cell division is small just like our tubs compared to nature, cell division cant weaken a culture to the point it wont fruit in the space of one tub of a grow, thats not how it works.
cell replication over time create errors in the genetic code or faults, this is senescence, eventually the damage from replication is that wide spread the genome dont represnt the same as it used too, and affects the ability to replicate healthy cells. this is aging and senescence.
1 grow is never going degrade dna to the point it cant do its job unless ur expecting the cells to rep,icate to cover a football field.
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mary fairchild
Pantheist


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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3] 1
#25522829 - 10/08/18 07:07 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
mustangbob3 said:
Quote:
bodhisatta said: Here is my take. Grains are obviously a nutrient source. i get half ounce dried fruits on the 4th+ flush sometimes a 6th flush will even put out a couple half oz monsters. so if there is still enough energy 4-6 flushes in to put out a couple of zips dry. Either one of two things is what I can logically deduce from that. Either we come no where near effectively using the energy/nutrients in spawn before the grow goes south and we have a huge over abundance of nutrition. Or the coir is nutritional.
Either way even being my scientifically orientated questioning self I don't worry about which one is the case. I would like to know but I don't think we could really find out without doing genetic knockout studies what would take years and thousands of trials to do empirically.
my point exactly, we have far more nutes in the spawn than needed BUT helps us with faster colonisation ect reducing risk and over time we gain nute from the coir.
i think of grains as a big mac and coir as a slow release energy.
either way what stops our fruiting after x flushes is NOT lack of nutes its purely from acidification
really the turning point would be to control ph and h20 to give the time for us to make the most of the potential flushes but its easier to make a new tub with fresh spawn for production reasons, but if u only rock one tub a year i can see how stretching it out too eek the most out would be valuable and certainly possible.
for few years i have researched bacteria and adding it too subs to create a symbiosis to allow the ammonia to be stabilized in the sub and prevent acidification, bodhi u might remmber my hydroponic mushrooms , i used rock wool block and injected it with lc then fruited using a ceramic watering spike feeding brewing wort, this was successful as it only fed what the mushrooms could draw by osmotic pressure and used the active transport mechanisms of fungi as the power source, the myc colonised the ceramic pores like u see on terracotta pots for plants and allowed the myc to draw nuterient as its own rate never under fed or over fed, but i never developed a better nute medium, this acidification was the downfall of my project in the end.
now and then i go back and play but still trying to find the perfect nirtogen fixing baceteria that will cohabit with our cubes
with unlimited nute and h20 i wasnt able to perpetually produce fruits as damage to the pinning platform and in the end acidification
This line of thought that Mustang and Bodhi were roaming into, for me brings to mind the possibility of finding a buffering agent- preferably a weak buffer that could be added to the sub. when making the recipe to resist the fated drop in pH from accumulating NH4+.
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
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Caps McGee
Grandaddy Smurfshack



Registered: 10/28/17
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3]
#25522836 - 10/08/18 07:10 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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I mean from fruiting... not senescence persay (I don't guess) but like actually tired lol... idk... maybe it's pH?
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Caps McGee
Grandaddy Smurfshack



Registered: 10/28/17
Posts: 14,357
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Caps McGee]
#25522837 - 10/08/18 07:11 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Lol
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Quote:
mary fairchild said:
Quote:
mustangbob3 said:
Quote:
bodhisatta said: Here is my take. Grains are obviously a nutrient source. i get half ounce dried fruits on the 4th+ flush sometimes a 6th flush will even put out a couple half oz monsters. so if there is still enough energy 4-6 flushes in to put out a couple of zips dry. Either one of two things is what I can logically deduce from that. Either we come no where near effectively using the energy/nutrients in spawn before the grow goes south and we have a huge over abundance of nutrition. Or the coir is nutritional.
Either way even being my scientifically orientated questioning self I don't worry about which one is the case. I would like to know but I don't think we could really find out without doing genetic knockout studies what would take years and thousands of trials to do empirically.
my point exactly, we have far more nutes in the spawn than needed BUT helps us with faster colonisation ect reducing risk and over time we gain nute from the coir.
i think of grains as a big mac and coir as a slow release energy.
either way what stops our fruiting after x flushes is NOT lack of nutes its purely from acidification
really the turning point would be to control ph and h20 to give the time for us to make the most of the potential flushes but its easier to make a new tub with fresh spawn for production reasons, but if u only rock one tub a year i can see how stretching it out too eek the most out would be valuable and certainly possible.
for few years i have researched bacteria and adding it too subs to create a symbiosis to allow the ammonia to be stabilized in the sub and prevent acidification, bodhi u might remmber my hydroponic mushrooms , i used rock wool block and injected it with lc then fruited using a ceramic watering spike feeding brewing wort, this was successful as it only fed what the mushrooms could draw by osmotic pressure and used the active transport mechanisms of fungi as the power source, the myc colonised the ceramic pores like u see on terracotta pots for plants and allowed the myc to draw nuterient as its own rate never under fed or over fed, but i never developed a better nute medium, this acidification was the downfall of my project in the end.
now and then i go back and play but still trying to find the perfect nirtogen fixing baceteria that will cohabit with our cubes
with unlimited nute and h20 i wasnt able to perpetually produce fruits as damage to the pinning platform and in the end acidification
This line of thought that Mustang and Bodhi were roaming into, for me brings to mind the possibility of finding a buffering agent- preferably a weak buffer that could be added to the sub. when making the recipe to resist the fated drop in pH from accumulating NH4+.
this!!
its been the forefront of my studies for so long, glad you see it too
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Caps McGee
Grandaddy Smurfshack



Registered: 10/28/17
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3]
#25522841 - 10/08/18 07:12 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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And gypsum doesn't do it?
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Caps McGee]
#25522842 - 10/08/18 07:13 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Caps McGee said: I mean from fruiting... not senescence persay (I don't guess) but like actually tired lol... idk... maybe it's pH?
yes ph now ur on to something lol 
Quote:
Caps McGee said: And gypsum doesn't do it?
no and lime bath coir dont either
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Edited by mustangbob3 (10/08/18 07:24 PM)
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Caps McGee]
#25522843 - 10/08/18 07:13 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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oopps
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Edited by mustangbob3 (10/08/18 07:24 PM)
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mushboy
modboy



Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 35,378
Loc: eating the cats
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3]
#25522848 - 10/08/18 07:16 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Anyone dunk with gypsum soaked water?
(Blind guess)
Edit: took me too long to read the thread.
Edited by mushboy (10/08/18 07:16 PM)
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mushboy]
#25522861 - 10/08/18 07:21 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
mushboy said: Anyone dunk with gypsum soaked water?
(Blind guess)
Edit: took me too long to read the thread.
tbh lime bathed coir isnt enough to buffer really so its not about a one time addition, u need to add it along with any h20 to keep adding it and keep bringing down the ph, this is troublesome thats why nature is the key, in nature its bacteria that solve the problem and then plants by using the by products of the bacteria.
think of benefiacial bacvteria in cannabis growing, thats what need to be achieved, bacteria that is in symbiosis with cubes and cohabits but neutralises the ammonia and even possibly a live casing like grass clipped short so the converted ammonia is used by the plants.
back to nature
but its alot of work, fun science but not really worth it when u can just spawn a new tub and get plenty more faster
but brings me back full circle and what if production wasnt ur aim and u rock one tub and want the most bang for buck?
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mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 792
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3]
#25522878 - 10/08/18 07:32 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
mustangbob3 said:
Quote:
mary fairchild said:
Quote:
mustangbob3 said:
Quote:
bodhisatta said: Here is my take. Grains are obviously a nutrient source. i get half ounce dried fruits on the 4th+ flush sometimes a 6th flush will even put out a couple half oz monsters. so if there is still enough energy 4-6 flushes in to put out a couple of zips dry. Either one of two things is what I can logically deduce from that. Either we come no where near effectively using the energy/nutrients in spawn before the grow goes south and we have a huge over abundance of nutrition. Or the coir is nutritional.
Either way even being my scientifically orientated questioning self I don't worry about which one is the case. I would like to know but I don't think we could really find out without doing genetic knockout studies what would take years and thousands of trials to do empirically.
my point exactly, we have far more nutes in the spawn than needed BUT helps us with faster colonisation ect reducing risk and over time we gain nute from the coir.
i think of grains as a big mac and coir as a slow release energy.
either way what stops our fruiting after x flushes is NOT lack of nutes its purely from acidification
really the turning point would be to control ph and h20 to give the time for us to make the most of the potential flushes but its easier to make a new tub with fresh spawn for production reasons, but if u only rock one tub a year i can see how stretching it out too eek the most out would be valuable and certainly possible.
for few years i have researched bacteria and adding it too subs to create a symbiosis to allow the ammonia to be stabilized in the sub and prevent acidification, bodhi u might remmber my hydroponic mushrooms , i used rock wool block and injected it with lc then fruited using a ceramic watering spike feeding brewing wort, this was successful as it only fed what the mushrooms could draw by osmotic pressure and used the active transport mechanisms of fungi as the power source, the myc colonised the ceramic pores like u see on terracotta pots for plants and allowed the myc to draw nuterient as its own rate never under fed or over fed, but i never developed a better nute medium, this acidification was the downfall of my project in the end.
now and then i go back and play but still trying to find the perfect nirtogen fixing baceteria that will cohabit with our cubes
with unlimited nute and h20 i wasnt able to perpetually produce fruits as damage to the pinning platform and in the end acidification
This line of thought that Mustang and Bodhi were roaming into, for me brings to mind the possibility of finding a buffering agent- preferably a weak buffer that could be added to the sub. when making the recipe to resist the fated drop in pH from accumulating NH4+.
this!!
its been the forefront of my studies for so long, glad you see it too
I've never bothered to pay attention to the starting pH of my substrates after hydration-without thinking about it too much I wonder if the addition of a bit of CaCO3 wouldn't be amiss.
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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its not so much the starting ph but the ph change over time. starting with a sub on the alkaline side surely bys time but is not a complete answer.
plenty room to experiment tho as its a little touched subject in mycology
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mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 792
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3]
#25522950 - 10/08/18 08:07 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yes, for me after 2 ->3 flushes I dont really care any more, but just as an exercise it might be fun if some buffer candidates could be found. Stuff to think on.
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
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R.I.P.Zappa
Myco Melyco


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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3]
#25522980 - 10/08/18 08:18 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Since we are on the longevity of subs It has got me thinking.
So when a sub starts to soften up, with the exclusion of trich or water logging it, could that be attributed to a high acidity?
Noticed the more flushes a sub goes through the more crumbly it gets over time.
-------------------- -The heaviest thing one will ever carry is a thought-
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Kizzle
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Quote:
mary fairchild said: Thanks Y'all, & Hi ET!
From the abstract of the article (thank you Shrooms)- looks like A. bisporus uses lignin as a food source but is it a major food source?, cuz if so- with lignin at up to 32% in coir it sort of muddies the water in believing that coir is only a minor nute source for shrooms, regardless i'll take it that coir is a very minor food source for cubes. Surprising that carbs were only slightly consumed.
Just wanted some clarification on cubes.
Im doing a comparison experiment hpoo vs coir as the main substrate component in the culture of Panaeolus. It's known that Pans could be fruited from a coir based sub. as well as a poo based sub. I think that poo is a far superior sub component than coir; also that poo may be the major nute source, even that Pans can be grown without any grains. Have some experiments lined up.
It'd more accurate to say it uses lignocellulose as a food source. When the lignin gets degraded the cellulose and hemicelluloses become available for digestion. I don't think it actually derives any energy from breaking down the lignin but other components can be converted into sugars. The reason high amounts of lignin are good is because is makes it selective to the mushroooms. Degrading things with high lignin content is their specialty and lets them outcompete other organisms. In the case coir the lignin content is so high Trichoderma is about the only real competitor, although other molds may grow weakly on it and will try to compete for the spawn.
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Claybirdd
Widespread Panic


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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Kizzle]
#25523239 - 10/08/18 10:25 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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From what I understand, with gypsum the sulfur which is acidic ofsets the alkalinity of the calcium therefore it's a zero sum buffer. I have heard of good results using pickling lime in substrate water at a ratio of 1 teaspoon per gallon. I will be trying this on my next batch of tubs. With my coir/horse poo subs I get 3 flushes before acidity shuts it down. I aim to get my ph to around 8.5 when preparing my subs.
Edited by Claybirdd (10/08/18 10:25 PM)
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,915
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3]
#25523658 - 10/09/18 05:19 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
mustangbob3 said: bodhi...
concidering with current teks we are most likely pushing the limit of what is possible to produce over two flushes, what would u advise other to look into regarding improving teks?
to me the only improvement can come from: h20 supply nute supply and usage more flushes before done
what would you look at to improve on current teks?
its not a trick question im genuinely interested in what you consider the frontier of the hobby and how we can all move forward
Genetic modifications. Kind of joking kind of not. And always trying to get the most out of flush one, and flush two
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trip_hazard
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3]
#25523757 - 10/09/18 06:48 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
mustangbob3 said:
Quote:
mushboy said: Anyone dunk with gypsum soaked water?
(Blind guess)
Edit: took me too long to read the thread.
tbh lime bathed coir isnt enough to buffer really so its not about a one time addition, u need to add it along with any h20 to keep adding it and keep bringing down the ph, this is troublesome thats why nature is the key, in nature its bacteria that solve the problem and then plants by using the by products of the bacteria.
Any thoughts on bottom-watering/misting with gypsum water? From a very layperson view, starting after (during?) the second flush may help balance the pH.
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Caps McGee
Grandaddy Smurfshack



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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: trip_hazard]
#25523811 - 10/09/18 07:40 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think maybe lime bathing would be more efficient, and perhaps using lime in mist water as well (over time)
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Spore-hunter
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Caps McGee]
#25523819 - 10/09/18 07:45 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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The nutrition is from the grains, that why I prefer a higher grain to sub ratio.
--------------------
 
"When the AC is running full blast & it's still fucking hot - it's time to shut the window"
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Caps McGee]
#25523821 - 10/09/18 07:46 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think fancy ph adjusting mist gets into the extremely diminished returns area. Do all this to make sure your 5th flush is good.
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Caps McGee
Grandaddy Smurfshack



Registered: 10/28/17
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: bodhisatta]
#25523829 - 10/09/18 07:49 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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If you were focused on the longevity of only one tub as suggested... most cultivators are not, and have issue not having enough tubs lol
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Caps McGee]
#25523845 - 10/09/18 08:00 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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if ur going go thru the effort of messing with ph its only going be a novelty and a little side project for kicks, for production its always going make more sense to just spawn new tubs.
--------------------
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Ferather
Mycological



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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3] 1
#25523913 - 10/09/18 09:00 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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trip_hazard
Lost in thunk



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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: bodhisatta] 1
#25524016 - 10/09/18 10:06 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: I think fancy ph adjusting mist gets into the extremely diminished returns area. Do all this to make sure your 5th flush is good. 
Meh - just thinking if I'm going to water and mist anyway, why not? I'll do a side-by-side in a couple weeks and see how it goes.
optimization.Quote:
mustangbob3 said: if ur going go thru the effort of messing with ph its only going be a novelty and a little side project for kicks, for production its always going make more sense to just spawn new tubs.
I'm 100% in it for the kicks
Any data on the changes to pH over time? I've got a cheapo tester but I'd like to compare to known results to make sure I'm against a similar set.
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ferather] 2
#25524033 - 10/09/18 10:12 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferather said: What mustangbob3 said (here). + https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24947745/page/1
Good job with your explanation.

interesting work!
i have always wondered about adding ribose to substrate as this is the main sugar used to make Adenosine triphosphate at the cells, the energy currency of the cells.
as a side note the ribose is phosphorylated by the cell creating ribose 5 phosphate before the adenine base is added, this inturn is also used as the fuel to create amino acids, namely tryptophan.
this is how all our actives are made, im not sure if anyone has ever tried to supplement ribose for easy energy release and creation of atp and as a side note increasing actives within, most try adding tryptophan but this dosent work, adding ribose the raws may be an effective way of stimulating extra as the limiting factor in amino acid formation in the mycelium is d-ribose.
Quote:
I'm 100% in it for the kicks
Any data on the changes to pH over time? I've got a cheapo tester but I'd like to compare to known results to make sure I'm against a similar set.
im not aware of any studies and tbh its fresh ground for us hobbists and to be honest we dont even know the difference genetically from subsets within the same strain so growing out 1 isolate or culture against another may have different results even if from the same locale/ print , its within the multiplicity of the gene combinations to create potentially vastly differing outcomes even with starting with one base/ print.
i.e you could grow out 20 diff cultures originating from the same print and say grow them on wood to see how they preform and some will be more adept at surviving than others and until real breeding has been done with our cubes to isolate alleles that we choose really its a free for all and ur going have produce ur own facts and figures
--------------------
Edited by mustangbob3 (10/09/18 10:27 AM)
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Ferather
Mycological



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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3]
#25524081 - 10/09/18 10:39 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thanks, good luck with your experiments (and grows).
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trip_hazard
Lost in thunk



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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3]
#25524124 - 10/09/18 10:57 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
mustangbob3 said:
im not aware of any studies and tbh its fresh ground for us hobbists and to be honest we dont even know the difference genetically from subsets within the same strain so growing out 1 isolate or culture against another may have different results even if from the same locale/ print , its within the multiplicity of the gene combinations to create potentially vastly differing outcomes even with starting with one base/ print.
i.e you could grow out 20 diff cultures originating from the same print and say grow them on wood to see how they preform and some will be more adept at surviving than others and until real breeding has been done with our cubes to isolate alleles that we choose really its a free for all and ur going have produce ur own facts and figures
I feel this so much - the more I read the more convinced I become that comparative grows, even from isolates, are still going to provide only anecdotal evidence at best. I can't complain though, trial and error have gotten us this far.
Thanks for your continued efforts to grow the knowledge base!
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ferather] 1
#25524127 - 10/09/18 10:57 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferather said: Thanks, good luck with your experiments (and grows).
you to brother, im not online much and dont document what i do but i will keep an eye on ur work in future.
im paranoid but one day if i have something worth showing will post it up, u all do a great job here of growing and my grows are not really reinventing the wheel, keep at what u do anyway, interesting stuff
--------------------
Edited by mustangbob3 (10/09/18 11:07 AM)
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KitchenChef
Stranger

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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3] 2
#25524455 - 10/09/18 01:25 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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well elephant poop is still my favorite but not everyone's got an elephant in their backyard.
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Ferather
Mycological



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Posts: 6,325
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Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: KitchenChef] 1
#25524912 - 10/09/18 05:01 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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I laughed, so here is some Google data as a reward:
Elephant dung was estimated as: 48.18% C, 0.86% N, 0.34% P, 0.37% K+, 0.19% Ca2+, 0.05% Mg2+ and 0.25% Na+ with a pH value of 6.9. Dung was rich in crude fibre (21.4%) and low in crude fat (2.8%). Cellulose, hemi cellulose and lignin fractions were accounted as 35.8, 30.1 and 17.5 per cent respectively. http://krishikosh.egranth.ac.in/handle/1/5810028909
Elephant dung pH test video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mpPzSoeGb4
----
Note: Cubensis grows from dung with a pH of 6.5+, dung is also a fertilizer.
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Extra data:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25493075#25493075 https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25494952#25494952 https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25516465#25516465
http://agritech.tnau.ac.in/org_farm/orgfarm_coircompost.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid-free_paper
Edited by Ferather (10/09/18 06:05 PM)
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mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 792
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Kizzle]
#25530337 - 10/11/18 04:19 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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The original question was, "has it been proven that COCO COIR provides ANY nutritional value as a substrate component for cubensis culture"? Thanks for the responses, esp. Mustangbob & Kizzle.
This is part of the reason I asked the question:
I would like to compare coir to horse poo as food sources for Panaeolus culture. I want to omit any grain or other obvious food sources. No grain, looks like a tall order for coir. I dont think straight up coir has a chance alone against hpoo because there may be other factors that are necessary for coir to be a food source.
Anyone have any ideas whether coir alone (no grain) can be made to be an excellent food source for Pan/cube mycelia, and if so how?
After reading the responses on this thread it looks like my simple question doesn't have a simple answer- that makes this topic way more interesting to me. Some are saying that coir provides at most minimal nutritional value in a typical cubensis run. Others are saying that coir has the requisite lignin & lignocellulose compexes to make it an excellent food source for cubes. The two positions aren’t necessarily at odds- just that the answer may be more complicated.
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,915
Loc: Milky way
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Someone would need to test it. Hasn't been done. The people saying what enzymes cubes have should produce something compelling to prove that cubes actually have those enzymes.
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mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 792
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: bodhisatta]
#25530474 - 10/11/18 05:33 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thanks for the response Bodhi,
I dont know enough about this but it looks like both dung loving shrooms and wood loving shrooms act on ligno-cellulosic compounds, but a dung loving shroom isn't going to digest wood even though wood possesses those compounds, so why should it use coir as a food source; thats not dung either. On top of that I dont see any convincing evidence on this site that dung loving shrooms are actually using coir as a food source.
Well i'm set up to do the experiment anyway.
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
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Caps McGee
Grandaddy Smurfshack



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I don't feel cubes do use coir as a nutrient source...
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elasticaltiger
Like Tigers in Coitus




Registered: 06/24/13
Posts: 8,438
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Quote:
mary fairchild said: Thanks for the response Bodhi,
I dont know enough about this but it looks like both dung loving shrooms and wood loving shrooms act on ligno-cellulosic compounds, but a dung loving shroom isn't going to digest wood even though wood possesses those compounds, so why should it use coir as a food source; thats not dung either. On top of that I dont see any convincing evidence on this site that dung loving shrooms are actually using coir as a food source.
Well i'm set up to do the experiment anyway.
Hey Mary,
Do you ever wonder if there is a genetic component to how well cubensis do on coir? Like a lot of people say that cubensis have been domesticated now and I wonder how much they may have just adapted to growing on coir since it's such a popular medium.
I mean any time you take a spore print from a fruit grown on coir you're taking genetics that were able to perform well on that medium. Over hundreds of generations theres gotta be a genetic component to cubensis performance on grains and coir. Were the ones selecting the good performers after all.
-------------------- First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber
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EZEKIEL 23:20
Edited by elasticaltiger (10/12/18 02:27 AM)
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Ferather
Mycological



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I've tested cubensis on cellulose (no sugar, no starch, no spawn), it grows just fine, it also fruits just fine. Cubensis will not grow on wood due to it's acidity and it cannot tolerate inhibitory plant phenols.*
Cubensis grows on dung, which has a pH of 6.5+, dung is also nutritional (lots of nitrogen). Dung is high in cellulose and hemicellulose, no notable simple sugar and starches.

Chemical composition of horse manure compared to wood (PDF, Page 12) **
Why not spawn to 100g of verm vs 100g of coir and compare them in yield. Both the coir and verm should contain the same amount of water.
* Wood is also not very nutritional, trace nitrogen.
** N-tot:
1.48 × 10−2 = 1.48 x 0.01 = 0.0148 8.00 × 10−3 = 8.0 x 0.001 = 0.0080
Edited by Ferather (10/12/18 05:24 AM)
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ferather]
#25531398 - 10/12/18 05:14 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Data on dung is not the data on the dung you used. You didn't measure pH you Googled what it should theoretically be "6.5+" If cubes cant tolerate inhibitory phenols why when people accidentally use wood do cubes colonize it just fine but fruit poorly?
Got pictures of these fruits?
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Ferather
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: bodhisatta]
#25531422 - 10/12/18 05:36 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: Data on dung is not the data on the dung you used.
WTF does that mean? Plenty of people use horse dung. Look at the composition, and stop arguing.
Quote:
bodhisatta said: You didn't measure pH you Googled what it should theoretically be "6.5+"
I've done various tests on pH, inhibitory phenols and nutrients, not all of which I have shared.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24947745/page/1
Quote:
bodhisatta said: If cubes cant tolerate inhibitory phenols why when people accidentally use wood do cubes colonize it just fine but fruit poorly?
Composition and age (no doubt they where also using spawn), various phenols break down over time. ** They wont fruit well due to lack of nitrogen and other essential nutrients it requires.
Even wood lovers do better when a nitrogen fixating organism is present.
Quote:
bodhisatta said: Got pictures of these fruits?
Given the amount of images and fruits you have produced, why not give us your scientific feedback. No offense, but so far you are yet to provide any conclusive counter evidence or data.
** Mycelium also oxidize medias, phenols break down to oxygen (oxidize).
---- ----
I am happy to answer questions (and be corrected). Here is some additional data in terms of wood.
----
Hardwood and Softwood pH (Web, Image).
As you can see wood is acidic, if you analyze the pH of dung cubensis grows from it will be ~pH 7+. So there is the first hurdle, I can also tell you oysters do better at pH 7+ on wood.
The next step is the nutritional composition, and what is known as the carbon-nitrogen ratio.
For carbon, this is materials such as cellulose, starch, simple sugars, phenols, so on. For nitrogen, this is proteins, ammonia or urea, some phenols and so on.
Gourmet growers will increase costs, and risks, by adding wheat bran, other, to wood products. This is classed as enrichment, where the additive makes up for deficiency's in the media.
Note: The enrichment will also add starch and sugar, which 'was' void in wood.
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Rough carbon to nitrogen guide:
The Carbon:Nitrogen Ratio (C:N)
Paper products: Contain about 42% carbon, 0.24% nitrogen, this is a carbon to nitrogen ratio of 175:1 (42 / 0.24 = 175:1). Wood products: Contain about 50% carbon, 0.10% nitrogen, this is a carbon to nitrogen ratio of 500:1 (50 / 0.10 = 500:1).
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Wheat bran to wood example:
Composition | Carbon: 42g per 100g (42%) | Nitrogen: 2.56g per 100g (2.56%).
100g wood + 100g bran = 200g | 50 + 42 = 92, / 2.00 = [46% carbon] | 0.1 + 2.56 = 2.66, / 2.00 = [1.33% nitrogen] | 46 / 1.33 = [35:1]. 100g wood + 75g bran = 175g | 50 + 32 = 82, / 1.75 = [47% carbon] | 0.1 + 1.92 = 2.02, / 1.75 = [1.15% nitrogen] | 47 / 1.15 = [41:1]. 100g wood + 50g bran = 150g | 50 + 21 = 71, / 1.50 = [47% carbon] | 0.1 + 1.28 = 1.38, / 1.50 = [0.92% nitrogen] | 47 / 0.92 = [51:1]. 100g wood + 25g bran = 125g | 50 + 11 = 61, / 1.25 = [49% carbon] | 0.1 + 0.64 = 0.74, / 1.25 = [0.59% nitrogen] | 49 / 0.59 = [83:1].
----
Extra data:
Cubensis germinated from dry spores, on a black tea bag @ pH 5.5, but stalled after 2mm. When the phenols where removed, pH 6.5, and sucrose added, it fully colonized. *
Tea leaves composition, trace sugar (3% per 100g), no starch, rich.
* Most of the present sugars where removed with the phenols during water saturation. Cellulose is relatively inert, it's slow to release as a carbon source.
A Review of Polyphenolics in Oak Woods | Phenolic content in tea
Lignicolous (wood loving) mycelium on T-Gel (black tea + agar):

Enzymatic Degradation of Lignin in Soil
Edited by Ferather (10/12/18 07:54 AM)
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ferather] 1
#25531707 - 10/12/18 08:34 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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This has been an interesting read. Regarding pans, I see no evidence that they do not use the grain as primary nutrition similar to cubes. So using coir vs manure seems to be a non issue in my mind. BREEDERS did pan cambos on cased rye, no manure and no coir.
Quote:
BREEDERS said: i make this grow log very simple, for purpose to make prints as fast as possible
so i just case Spawn (Rye) with 1cm (pasteurize) poting soil

Quote:
BREEDERS said: 4th Flsuh, with biggest panaeolus Sandoze Ever 
I also had pretty darn good results with v tek pans. I cased em with coir and they did pretty good. I should get some going again and do a lot or something fun. Also been enjoying the discussion here, quite informative.
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Pastywhyte]
#25531782 - 10/12/18 09:23 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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It means someone may have fed your horse or cow something in addition to their normal diet.
I'm really glad you're into theoretically derived data but despite what you think the enzyme profiles are there is real life data that I can see with my eyes. Vs stuff compiled from books applied to cubes with no growing of cubes.
Your big issue posting any cube results is the legality, people from your country post plenty of pictures. If you're a scientist I'm sure you can figure out how to take some non incriminating ones.
Its like me looking up rocket science. Saying something will or won't work based on things I read. But never having played with a rocket myself. Not as interesting as it looks at face value
You'll say something did or didn't work based on cube mycelium growing out 2mm. Which could be completely explained by intracellular energy reserves rather than metabolism. Either way even with some results they need a rigorous and critical interpretation.
I could go pour a bottle of water in my car and it would turn on and work still. So then I could go saying putting a cup of water in your gas tank works. And could stretch it further saying well engines must burn the water then! Likewise I could drink 15mL of gas and not die. Doesn't mean I metabolized gas.
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mary fairchild
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Quote:
elasticaltiger said: Hey Mary,
Do you ever wonder if there is a genetic component to how well cubensis do on coir? Like a lot of people say that cubensis have been domesticated now and I wonder how much they may have just adapted to growing on coir since it's such a popular medium.
I mean any time you take a spore print from a fruit grown on coir you're taking genetics that were able to perform well on that medium. Over hundreds of generations theres gotta be a genetic component to cubensis performance on grains and coir. Were the ones selecting the good performers after all.
Hey ET- thanks for keeping this thread going, its been thought provoking.
A simple experiment: Do cultivated cubes use coir as a food source?
Grow multispore cube mycelia without grain spawn, ie. inoculate liquid culture of cube mycelia directly to a coir based substrate that lacks grain, flour, bran or any other possible nute source except coir. Thats exactly what i’m doing right now except i’m doing it with Panaeolus.
My vote is that as long as grains, an easier food source than coir, are available in quantity- cubes will always use the easier, higher calorie food source, so there would be no selective pressure to use coir.
If over generations you kept reducing the ratio of grain to coir- could you wean them off the grain completely?….
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
Edited by mary fairchild (10/12/18 02:49 PM)
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mary fairchild
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ferather] 1
#25532442 - 10/12/18 02:24 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferather said: I've tested cubensis on cellulose (no sugar, no starch, no spawn), it grows just fine, it also fruits just fine.
Interesting about cellulose alone:
Liquid culture->mixture of cellulose and coir, & skip the grain.
BTW- thanks for the reference on horse poo.
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
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Ferather
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Absolutely no problem. Cellulose decay with Cubensis mycelium does not differ 'too much' from that of an Oyster mycelium. Both Cubensis and Oysters take about 4-5 months to colonize 125g of slow release cellulose (WL-Tek, pH 7.5).
Lignicolous mycelium will target various phenols, as a faster release carbon (some are water soluble). In order to amplify Cubensis growth (also works with Oysters) add starch (or even spawn).
By adding spawn, starch or sugar the timing drops down to 4 weeks.
----
How does that work?
In order to decay cellulose at a fast rate, additional enzymes, usable surface area and cells are required. Enzymes are a type of protein, composed of C-H-N-O, some will also contain other elements.
The faster release carbon source, and nutrients, allows the mycelium to speed up.
Note: After 4-5 months, the mycelium is equal vs with spawn.
----
Depending on the amount of spawn used, it can be classed as media enrichment. If I use enough grain spawn, I can achieve similar ratios vs adding bran.
Unfortunately there are various drawbacks with high spawn, and 100% grain.
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Ziran
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Quote:
Shroomspective said: So what about the age old Gypsum (calcium sulfate dihydrate) question? Does this have any advantage for mycelium, From what I've seen there may be a benefit on the calcium side
from my understanding, gypsum is mainly to help prevent ph swings.
-------------------- Song Of Healing
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Ferather
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ziran]
#25532680 - 10/12/18 04:05 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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I've never understood gypsum (CaSO4·2-H2O), other than calcium and sulphur as nutrients, it's still odd to use it for any type of pH effect. Calcium is an alkali, and sulphur is an acid, when combed gypsum has a pH of around 6.5, it's not a neutralizer.
If the mycelium cleaves and utilizes both, that's fine, if it uses all the calcium, you get sulphur.
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mary fairchild
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ferather]
#25532751 - 10/12/18 04:47 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Regarding pans, I see no evidence that they do not use the grain as primary nutrition similar to cubes.
Does Panaeolus need grain like cultivated cubes seem to? How will they fare on hpoo or coir alone?
Well here's the test:
Pan cyan: Liquid culture->hpoo,verm*->fruiting. (No grain) ->coir,verm*-->fruiting. (No grain)
*[Both substrates have gypsum & azomite as well]
I'm not saying that Pans dont eat grain- if its there, they'll eat it but how will they do with poo alone. The LC's have already been inoculated into the two substrates.
Best would have been to compare +/- grain. But I changed the exp. in midstream.
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
Edited by mary fairchild (10/12/18 05:07 PM)
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ferather]
#25532952 - 10/12/18 06:25 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Water cleaves it into Ca+2 and SO4-2 and ions flux across membranes as needed.
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Asura
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: bodhisatta]
#25532973 - 10/12/18 06:37 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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mary, I will say that I attempted to recreate you and BH's spawn bags that were light on the grain. I'm kind of giving up on it and going back to colonizing grain. I just didn't see the growth that you guys did. Next attempt will be to spawn grain, but to 1:3 or 1:4 to test it out again.
Granted, my spawn bag skills...SUCK
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Pastywhyte
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Quote:
mary fairchild said:
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Regarding pans, I see no evidence that they do not use the grain as primary nutrition similar to cubes.
Does Panaeolus need grain like cultivated cubes seem to? How will they fare on hpoo or coir alone?
Well here's the test:
Pan cyan: Liquid culture->hpoo,verm*->fruiting. (No grain) ->coir,verm*-->fruiting. (No grain)
*[Both substrates have gypsum & azomite as well]
I'm not saying that Pans dont eat grain- if its there, they'll eat it but how will they do with poo alone. The LC's have already been inoculated into the two substrates.
Best would have been to compare +/- grain. But I changed the exp. in midstream.
Those are interesting questions. How would a result either way change the way you would attempt to grow them? Are you thinking LC to bulk media in open air or something eventually? If a result like “they can grow on straight coir” or “you can see killer yields on just manure” (which we already know to be true as far as pan cyan is concerned) was the product of some rigorous testing, I’m still pretty sure my general strategy isn’t going to change much. Grain is so cheap and pans need little water compared to robust cubes that I’m not sure what benefit you intend to see.
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cronicr



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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Pastywhyte]
#25533086 - 10/12/18 07:32 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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agreed grain will be my go to, ive done a lot on coir even with very low ratios but grains cheap so is bulk. Good luck
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: cronicr]
#25533124 - 10/12/18 07:53 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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For pans, I thought the idea was to encourage them to fruit All of my pans have been very aggressive culture-wise, but then they want to overlay.
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mary fairchild
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: cronicr]
#25533146 - 10/12/18 08:01 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Those are interesting questions. How would a result either way change the way you would attempt to grow them?
At this stage i'm not thinking about changing anything. More to satisfy curiosity.
BTW- I was unaware that it has already been shown that Pans were grown well on poo alone. I dont spend a lot of time looking at the older grows, can you show me the link to that/those grows?
Edited by mary fairchild (10/13/18 06:38 AM)
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mary fairchild
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Asura]
#25533154 - 10/12/18 08:06 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asura said: mary, I will say that I attempted to recreate you and BH's spawn bags that were light on the grain. I'm kind of giving up on it and going back to colonizing grain. I just didn't see the growth that you guys did. Next attempt will be to spawn grain, but to 1:3 or 1:4 to test it out again.
Granted, my spawn bag skills...SUCK
Have you tried the bags that have injection ports? Way easier.
Well I'm trying a good fruiting strain without grain- excited about the result either way. We'll see!
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
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Caps McGee
Grandaddy Smurfshack



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Quote:
DimensionShifter said: birthing shrooms is an art it takes time to master
you ll figure it out
Just set them up and let them grow? I am literally the least artistic, most awkward person I know and I'm putting more out than I can eat, 1-4 dry ounces at a time! Lol, really doesn't even require skill
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Ferather
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: bodhisatta]
#25533900 - 10/13/18 07:36 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: Water cleaves it into Ca+2 and SO4-2 and ions flux across membranes as needed.
Ok, I did some additional online research, I found gypsum to be only slightly soluble in water.
Solubility chart (Web, Wiki) | Solubility table (Web, Wiki)
So any water cleaving is minimal, solubility also reduces with higher temperatures.
In addition, gypsum is used as grit with grain, and remains as grit when colonized. This would also suggest it's not very soluble and isn't utilized very much.
----
In general, in order for mycelium to utilize anything, it must be soluble (enzymes, reactions), or small enough to pass through the cell wall. Lime (CaCO3) is 'insoluble', and will not be absorbed by mycelium, however: CaCO3 + H2O + CO2 = Ca(HCO3)2.
Calcium bicarbonate is 'soluble', but in this case, only in water, it's absorbed by mycelium. Mycelium will be expelling CO2 as a waste component, expelled CO2 will react.
Calcium carbonate (Web, Wiki) | Calcium bicarbonate (Web, Wiki)
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Gypsum is also formed as a by-product of sulfide oxidation ... when the sulfuric acid generated reacts with calcium carbonate. Its presence indicates oxidizing conditions. Gypsum, source (Web, Wiki)
----
Calcium bicarbonate also counts as a very weak carbon source (tested).
Most common substrates shouldn't have a sulphur deficiency. Personally I would suggest lime for calcium.
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ferather]
#25533905 - 10/13/18 07:40 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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I can’t find the thread where I read about people doing straight manure pans. But the gist was that they sterilized a myco bag of manure and colonized it with LC. Then “spawned” it to pasteurized manure. I will try to look for it later, probably got archived. At any rate reading that still didn’t make me think I should not use grain in my grows. Grain has too much upside.
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ferather]
#25533943 - 10/13/18 08:06 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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We use at most a handful of gypsum for a batch of spawn. It all dissolves.
Im -100% interested in how you applied what you learned from wiki articles to gypsum being used in growing on a theoretical level. Especially because I've actually used gypsum growing cubes before.
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R.I.P.Zappa
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Caps McGee]
#25533956 - 10/13/18 08:12 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yup just some guidance than practice. Like riding a bike.
Bod: "A four year old can grow Cubes"
-------------------- -The heaviest thing one will ever carry is a thought-
-"Like a Blind man In an orgy you gotta feel things out.".-
-When we agree about our hallucinations, we call it “reality".-
-If you defy authority because your told to, that's no better than blindly trusting authority.-
psychonautwiki.org
How it should & shouldn't look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE
BOD's Easy AF OAT prep tek.
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Ferather
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: bodhisatta]
#25533961 - 10/13/18 08:15 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ok, small enough amounts to react, CaCO3 is the same, it stops reacting past a certain pH. Do you know how much % gypsum to spawn that is? Just for future reference.
Answer to edit: I've read people testing it with no conclusive outcome, I also found the same. However I am using a different recipe, where both calcium and sulphur are provided.
If I had a calcium and-or sulphur deficiency, I might see results.
----
Here are some links for dung loving mycelium, hopefully it's helpful.
Coprophilous fungi (Web, Springer) Coprophilous fungi (Web, Wiki)
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ferather]
#25533967 - 10/13/18 08:18 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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A pinch per jar. Or like a teaspoon.
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Ferather
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: bodhisatta]
#25533975 - 10/13/18 08:25 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ok thanks. My main point was gypsum won't do much for media pH, it doesn't neutralize acids.
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ferather]
#25533981 - 10/13/18 08:28 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Who is using gypsum to neutralize acids? We use lime to buffer ph.
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ferather]
#25533987 - 10/13/18 08:30 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferather said: Ok thanks. My main point was gypsum won't do much for media pH, it doesn't neutralize acids.
Never did and no one ever expected it to. Gypsum doesn't do nearly anything for pH and it's not a buffer.
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Ferather
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: bodhisatta]
#25534003 - 10/13/18 08:37 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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mary fairchild
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: bodhisatta] 1
#25534029 - 10/13/18 08:50 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said: I can’t find the thread where I read about people doing straight manure pans. But the gist was that they sterilized a myco bag of manure and colonized it with LC. Then “spawned” it to pasteurized manure. I will try to look for it later, probably got archived. At any rate reading that still didn’t make me think I should not use grain in my grows. Grain has too much upside.
The experimental grow i'm doing has nothing to do with trying to get people to stop using grains.
I'm doing this grow because of a statement that I have seen more than once on this site: Its been said, (maybe paraphrasing only a little) "Pans can be grown on coir". To me that implies that Pans are using coir as a food source- that may not have been the original intent of the statement but others may read it that way as well.
I never believed Pans could use coir as a food source, I dont think cubes can use it as a food source either for that matter- at least in the time frame of a typical grow; grain is the food. The statement has always irked me because I think it is potentially misleading.
Thats why i'm doing this grow. Testing coir as a food source as well as poo.
The whole reason I started the thread was to get a census of how others on this site regard coir- food source or not.
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
Edited by mary fairchild (10/13/18 09:20 AM)
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
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That is a good idea, very similar to what I try to achieve. Learning how the wheel works doesn't mean you want to change the wheel, as such. Although I admit, when you learn something, and it turns out what your doing isn't so optimal, you can make various changes.
In the past (mostly in the Gourmet section) I've produced [Test log] threads, example: [Test log] Golden oyster. I would then fill it with various experiments, results, discussions and where possible conclusions.
Some data cannot be obtained without a lab, other sources are needed (online-books).
----
If you have enough information already from this thread, I suggest starting a new one. Good luck, also PM me if you do make another test thread, with a link.
Edited by Ferather (10/13/18 10:27 AM)
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Caps McGee
Grandaddy Smurfshack



Registered: 10/28/17
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This is 6 pages of people trying to explain that "coir has nutrition, but it's not as easily accessible as that of the cooked grain, and the coir is used primarily as water retention "... none of it (starting with your question) has anything to do with gypsum... it's almost like you just want to bicker
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Wing
The Eye Tyrant



Registered: 04/25/11
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Caps McGee]
#25534268 - 10/13/18 10:47 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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People have inoculated coir with LC and gotten fruits but I guess the question here is, does the mycelium network pass up other nutrients for more easily accessible ones?
Edited by Wing (10/13/18 11:31 AM)
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mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 792
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Wing]
#25534352 - 10/13/18 11:45 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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What you said- same as how I see it, if the mycelia can get the same nutrition, in a manner that expends less energy thats the way it'll go- makes sense but its just conjecture.
BTW- thanks for that info about fruiting from coir alone.
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
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acidninja
student



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I thought the coir was just a moisture retaining and a structure for the myc to grab onto and fruit from? All the nutes come grom the grain
--------------------
- DMT
- Liberty Cap Gallery
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Ferather
Mycological



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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: acidninja]
#25534423 - 10/13/18 12:19 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well to be honest, there is a simple and easy solution which I mentioned before.
300g of hydrated grain, cooked as one batch (less variables).
Recipe A: 100g of grain, colonized, cased in 100g of verm + 200g water, fruit, then tally the yield. Recipe B: 100g of grain, colonized, cased in 100g of coir + 200g water, fruit, then tally the yield.
Control: 100g of grain, colonized, fruit, then tally the yield.
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Both recipe A and B should do better than the control, this is water availability. If coir makes a difference, positive or negative, its not just water.
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mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 792
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ferather]
#25534456 - 10/13/18 12:36 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yes, could tell if coir is supplementing the grain- as long as you took the colonized grain from the same source.
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
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Ferather
Mycological



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Indeed, I should have added keep the spawn as uniform as possible. I would say make 300g of spawn, but some people would prefer to split it up. As long as the batch is made together, and the samples come from the same agar, there shouldn't be too much variation with split jars.
I'm not 100% sure of the volumetric density of 100g of verm, there is some chance 'Recipe A' might not fruit at all. If that happens, and yet 'Recipe B' continues without stalling and then fruits, this is due to composition.
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Here is an illustration of the grow-up method, technically if this was verm, it would stall. In this case I have added soluble macro-micro nutrients, but no sugar or starch.


I have not tried WL-Tek on coir, coco coir costs more.
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Wing
The Eye Tyrant



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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Wing]
#25534513 - 10/13/18 12:59 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Wing said: People have inoculated coir with LC and gotten fruits but I guess the question here is, does the mycelium network pass up other nutrients for more easily accessible ones?
I'm not saying you'd be satisfied with the results. I tried it years ago, among other wild experiments IIRC I got about 10 grams dry from about 15-20 jars of coir inoculated with LC. Compared to roughly the same amount of jars of spawn and bulk substrate that most people use per mono it was considered a failure.
-------------------- My Old Grow Logs
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,972
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
mary fairchild said:
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: I can’t find the thread where I read about people doing straight manure pans. But the gist was that they sterilized a myco bag of manure and colonized it with LC. Then “spawned” it to pasteurized manure. I will try to look for it later, probably got archived. At any rate reading that still didn’t make me think I should not use grain in my grows. Grain has too much upside.
The experimental grow i'm doing has nothing to do with trying to get people to stop using grains.
I'm doing this grow because of a statement that I have seen more than once on this site: Its been said, (maybe paraphrasing only a little) "Pans can be grown on coir". To me that implies that Pans are using coir as a food source- that may not have been the original intent of the statement but others may read it that way as well.
I never believed Pans could use coir as a food source, I dont think cubes can use it as a food source either for that matter- at least in the time frame of a typical grow; grain is the food. The statement has always irked me because I think it is potentially misleading.
Thats why i'm doing this grow. Testing coir as a food source as well as poo.
The whole reason I started the thread was to get a census of how others on this site regard coir- food source or not.
I guess I just assume that when a person refers to growing on an ingredient typically used as bulk media they are still planning to involve grain or flour at some point. Since I regard things like manure, coir, straw, verm, coffee, worm castings, chix poo, sawdust as being lower nutrition I save them for bulk. I don’t think any one of those on their own is ideal, and since a healthy sub generally is a balance between sufficient nutes and water it should only stand that some mixing should be worthwhile. If someone said they grow on manure, I usually envision grain verm or straw being in the mix as well.
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Ferather
Mycological



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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Wing]
#25534564 - 10/13/18 01:25 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Wing said: I'm not saying you'd be satisfied with the results. I tried it years ago, among other wild experiments IIRC I got about 10 grams dry from about 15-20 jars of coir inoculated with LC. Compared to roughly the same amount of jars of spawn and bulk substrate that most people use per mono it was considered a failure.
I can explain that result. Coco coir handling is the same as wood and paper pellets, it needs calcium treatment and also enrichment.
"Because coir pith is high in sodium and potassium, it is treated before use as a growth medium for plants or fungi by soaking in a calcium buffering solution" -- Source | Acid-free paper (Web, Wiki).
Wood, paper pellets and coir all need nitrogen enrichment prior or during use to promote good growth (high in carbon).
The more spawn you add to coir, the higher the total media nitrogen value (the same as adding bran to wood). You added live mycelium suspended in a carbon rich liquid, into a low nutrient high carbon substrate.
This is the equivalent of adding nutrient free sucrose to 100% cellulose, no nutrients (Carbon + more carbon).
----
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: ...Since I regard things like manure, coir, straw, verm, coffee, worm castings, chix poo, sawdust as being lower nutrition I save them for bulk. I don’t think any one of those on their own is ideal, and since a healthy sub generally is a balance between sufficient nutes and water it should only stand that some mixing should be worthwhile...
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mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 792
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: acidninja]
#25534565 - 10/13/18 01:25 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
acidninja said: I thought the coir was just a moisture retaining and a structure for the myc to grab onto and fruit from? All the nutes come grom the grain
Essentially yes, coir serves as a moisture source and its looseness (friability) is believed to facilitate the movement of mycelia thru the substrate.
This whole thread (with a few deviations) addresses the point but I could see how it might not seem clear. The wrinkle is that altho coir has the nutrients mycelia needs, it isn't very accessible for dung loving mycelia. So if its a food source at all I think most would agree it is not significant.
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
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acidninja
student



Registered: 09/08/16
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Quote:
mary fairchild said:
Quote:
acidninja said: I thought the coir was just a moisture retaining and a structure for the myc to grab onto and fruit from? All the nutes come grom the grain
Essentially yes, coir serves as a moisture source and its looseness (friability) is believed to facilitate the movement of mycelia thru the substrate.
This whole thread (with a few deviations) addresses the point but I could see how it might not seem clear. The wrinkle is that altho coir has the nutrients mycelia needs, it isn't very accessible for dung loving mycelia. So if its a food source at all I think most would agree it is not significant.

--------------------
- DMT
- Liberty Cap Gallery
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mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 792
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Pastywhyte]
#25534616 - 10/13/18 01:46 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said:
Quote:
mary fairchild said:
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: I can’t find the thread where I read about people doing straight manure pans. But the gist was that they sterilized a myco bag of manure and colonized it with LC. Then “spawned” it to pasteurized manure. I will try to look for it later, probably got archived. At any rate reading that still didn’t make me think I should not use grain in my grows. Grain has too much upside.
The experimental grow i'm doing has nothing to do with trying to get people to stop using grains.
I'm doing this grow because of a statement that I have seen more than once on this site: Its been said, (maybe paraphrasing only a little) "Pans can be grown on coir". To me that implies that Pans are using coir as a food source- that may not have been the original intent of the statement but others may read it that way as well.
I never believed Pans could use coir as a food source, I dont think cubes can use it as a food source either for that matter- at least in the time frame of a typical grow; grain is the food. The statement has always irked me because I think it is potentially misleading.
Thats why i'm doing this grow. Testing coir as a food source as well as poo.
The whole reason I started the thread was to get a census of how others on this site regard coir- food source or not.
I guess I just assume that when a person refers to growing on an ingredient typically used as bulk media they are still planning to involve grain or flour at some point. Since I regard things like manure, coir, straw, verm, coffee, worm castings, chix poo, sawdust as being lower nutrition I save them for bulk. I don’t think any one of those on their own is ideal, and since a healthy sub generally is a balance between sufficient nutes and water it should only stand that some mixing should be worthwhile. If someone said they grow on manure, I usually envision grain verm or straw being in the mix as well.
Thanks Pasty for that clarification, I guess i've been looking at things thru a Panaeolis lens for a while. Its long been said that either Pans need poo or that poo helps them grow, they dont seem to say that about cubes so much- so when its said pans grow ON coir I think some, like me, may misinterpret that to mean they the are using coir as a food source.
I really think that for Pans there is a big difference between coir and poo as substrate additives, if there is a difference i'd like to ferret that out.
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
Edited by mary fairchild (10/13/18 02:42 PM)
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Pastywhyte
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Registered: 09/15/12
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I think pans can make do with poo but would prefer grain. Water supply is nice as well. It’s not different with cubes either.
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mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 792
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Pastywhyte]
#25535192 - 10/13/18 06:54 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Cool, For me its worth looking at regardless of the results. I certainly dont plan on omitting grain on a regular basis because I use so little anyway.
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
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R.I.P.Zappa
Myco Melyco


Registered: 03/30/18
Posts: 1,212
Loc: In Between Space and Time
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Grey mold likes coir. There is gypsum in it to so mabye that helped it.
Forgot this jar for a month on my table, lid on, used it for psudo casing to cover exposed grains.
-------------------- -The heaviest thing one will ever carry is a thought-
-"Like a Blind man In an orgy you gotta feel things out.".-
-When we agree about our hallucinations, we call it “reality".-
-If you defy authority because your told to, that's no better than blindly trusting authority.-
psychonautwiki.org
How it should & shouldn't look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE
BOD's Easy AF OAT prep tek.
Principles of mushroom growing for beginners
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: R.I.P.Zappa]
#25549415 - 10/19/18 07:34 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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I made an agar using calcium bicarbonate (from CaCO3), and added macro-micro nutrients (soluble) for testing a few times. One of the times I got black mold germinating and growing out, my guess, it's the same mold seen on drywall.
Drywall is made from gypsum, it contains 10% cellulose in addition. Interesting result.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
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Loc: Canada
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: R.I.P.Zappa]
#25549459 - 10/19/18 07:53 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
R.I.P.Zappa said: Grey mold likes coir. There is gypsum in it to so mabye that helped it.
Forgot this jar for a month on my table, lid on, used it for psudo casing to cover exposed grains.

Are you sure that there is no other media mixed in with your coir brick? I had a bad batch of coir once full of seeds, they were the vector for when it molded. I have kept quality coir hydrated for years and it was fine. I personally dislike eco earth coir because of the random crap I find it it constantly. Hydro shop coir is even worse.
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mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 792
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Pastywhyte]
#25549681 - 10/19/18 09:28 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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I've been using Eco earth, whats your source?
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,915
Loc: Milky way
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I buy 12 3-packs of eco earth at a time for ~$50 Ive used so much eco earth its ridiculous. Yea theres crap in there but if it wasn't reliable i wouldn't be buying hundreds of bricks
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R.I.P.Zappa
Myco Melyco


Registered: 03/30/18
Posts: 1,212
Loc: In Between Space and Time
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Pastywhyte]
#25550241 - 10/19/18 12:51 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said:
Quote:
R.I.P.Zappa said: Grey mold likes coir. There is gypsum in it to so mabye that helped it.
Forgot this jar for a month on my table, lid on, used it for psudo casing to cover exposed grains.

Are you sure that there is no other media mixed in with your coir brick? I had a bad batch of coir once full of seeds, they were the vector for when it molded. I have kept quality coir hydrated for years and it was fine. I personally dislike eco earth coir because of the random crap I find it it constantly. Hydro shop coir is even worse.
Yeah great point and kinda feel like a ass for overlooking that. That's from a sterilized 5# brick. The main reason I sterilized it is because I found straw, rocks, jungle turds and even some peanuts.  Did a couple shoeboxes with it unsterilized and got plants growing and trichplosions before 1st flush. I switched to eco earth pet bricks immediately after seeing the plants and consistant trich after trying it unsteralized. Things have gone allot more smooth and no sterilizing with the eco earth; just boiling water and verm.
I am interested in what brand you recommend. 
-Edit- did the exact same thing Bod did, 12, 3 packs for 50ish bucks.
-------------------- -The heaviest thing one will ever carry is a thought-
-"Like a Blind man In an orgy you gotta feel things out.".-
-When we agree about our hallucinations, we call it “reality".-
-If you defy authority because your told to, that's no better than blindly trusting authority.-
psychonautwiki.org
How it should & shouldn't look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE
BOD's Easy AF OAT prep tek.
Principles of mushroom growing for beginners
Edited by R.I.P.Zappa (10/19/18 12:53 PM)
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,972
Loc: Canada
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: R.I.P.Zappa]
#25550288 - 10/19/18 01:07 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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I prefer “exoterra plantation soil” as it’s often a lot cleaner and has a better shred typically. That’s not to say it’s infallible however, I get a lot less crap mixed in that brand than any other brand I have tried. Eco earth has worked for me and many other people, but it’s not the best IMO.
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Caps McGee
Grandaddy Smurfshack



Registered: 10/28/17
Posts: 14,357
Loc: ally known as ...
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Pastywhyte]
#25550730 - 10/19/18 04:08 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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How much does that typically run?
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
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Loc: Canada
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Caps McGee]
#25550752 - 10/19/18 04:22 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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Same as eco earth.
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Caps McGee
Grandaddy Smurfshack



Registered: 10/28/17
Posts: 14,357
Loc: ally known as ...
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Pastywhyte]
#25550807 - 10/19/18 04:46 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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Hmmm... I'll have to give it a swing!
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R.I.P.Zappa
Myco Melyco


Registered: 03/30/18
Posts: 1,212
Loc: In Between Space and Time
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Caps McGee]
#25551182 - 10/19/18 08:13 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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Hmm, just looked it up and it's almost twice the cost of eco earth in the US. 
Eco 5.99 Exo 9.49
I know coconuts don't grow in Canada so whats your secret?
-------------------- -The heaviest thing one will ever carry is a thought-
-"Like a Blind man In an orgy you gotta feel things out.".-
-When we agree about our hallucinations, we call it “reality".-
-If you defy authority because your told to, that's no better than blindly trusting authority.-
psychonautwiki.org
How it should & shouldn't look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE
BOD's Easy AF OAT prep tek.
Principles of mushroom growing for beginners
Edited by R.I.P.Zappa (10/19/18 08:15 PM)
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,972
Loc: Canada
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: R.I.P.Zappa]
#25551234 - 10/19/18 08:39 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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I dunno maybe I’m just lucky living in Canada for a change
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
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Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Pastywhyte]
#25560302 - 10/23/18 02:09 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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Well this may not be coir, however, Cubensis certainly decays cellulose (even from spores), at least at pH 7.5. I can also tell you it's getting it's macro-micro nutrients from the media (no spawn, grain or flour).
Germination took about 5 days with my setup, with weak growth to start with.

After good decay of cellulose begins, + illustration.
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mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 792
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ferather]
#25561248 - 10/23/18 07:13 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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Interesting, So cellulose as opposed to, cellulose & hemicellulose complexed with lignin? Curious- when you say its getting its macro & micro nutrients from the media, is the media cellulose & what else?- Oh, so its colonizing the wood saturated with sucrose.
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
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Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24012215#24012215 > I'm using the lignicolous recipe.
Sucrose, is 99.9% carbohydrates (C-H-O), it basically contains no macro-micro nutrients. Wood is ok, but has a serious nitrogen deficiency, around 0.1% nitrogen.
Coir is richer @ ~0.5% nitrogen, same for straw @ 0.5-0.8%.
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I am not trying to replace methods here, only teach what should be already an obvious fact.
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Still waiting for 50/50 grain-coir and 50/50 grain verm (same water content) tests. I was hoping someone has already run said test, but apparently not.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25534423#25534423
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ferather]
#25565486 - 10/25/18 05:44 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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Here are today's images, just so you know it's not stalling, just very slow, this is because complex cellulose is slow to release. I won't get into it too much, but the test in my Cubensis log, I added drops of sucrose water to accelerate decay.
I will go as far as to say, starch releases much faster, and grain spawn is the answer. I recently modified my cellulose alternative media to include grain flour.

Even oyster takes 4 months on 100% cellulose.
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Ferather
Mycological



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Posts: 6,325
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Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ferather]
#25568539 - 10/26/18 08:13 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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I have now removed the peg, based on the comparison between fed with additional sucrose (via syringe), vs unfed. Sucrose is soluble, and can be cleaved (from what I've read it's also cleaved by amylase).
We all know Cubensis loves a bit of starch, and other soluble carbon sources. Lignicolous mycelium will be using-targeting phenols instead.
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Cubensis peg onto T-Gel (no flour):
If it grows out and well enough it has enzymes that target, or work on, phenol based carbon sources. Based on Mycolorado's T-Gel adaptation, (66% less ME), Cubensis appears to adapt.
I am not sure if adaptation is better when it's live vs spores.
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Mycolorado's alternative T-Gel recipe:
100g > Water | 2g > Agar | 2g > Black Tea | 1g > Malt Extract.
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Note roughly 25-33% of the tea is soluble, not all of it.
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https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25150722
Edited by Ferather (10/26/18 08:46 AM)
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Ferather
Mycological



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Posts: 6,325
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ferather]
#25584604 - 11/01/18 02:59 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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I assembled the test 2 days ago now, see here, the cubensis has started to recover and there is some growth on the agar. It can take up to 5 days for lignicolous mycelium to adapt from fresh, and around 1-2 days if already adapted.
Growth is slow at this time due to limited resources, but improving, so no images yet. If the cubensis colonizes the plate, it has enzymes that target phenols.
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Potential outcomes:
Decay occurs - This would make cubensis lignicolous (enough). However it's high pH and nitrogen preference likely makes it niche. Nothing - This would make cubensis non-lignicolous. It's reliant on trace soluble carbon, higher pH and nitrogen.
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Notes:
To germinate and grow out on wood, the mycelium will need an easy(ier) carbon source than cellulose. Since wood contains no simple sugars and no starches, the phenols must be targeted.
Coir is around 5x richer than wood in terms of nitrogen, (0.1% vs 0.5%).
Composted manure composition (Web, Image).
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ferather]
#25588626 - 11/03/18 09:30 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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The peg was bald last night (about 10 hours ago), and now there is a tiny bit of growth. It looks like adaption has taken place after 4 days, so now I wait and see.
Growth is on and near the agar, the peg looks decayed.


Sorry about the image quality.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,972
Loc: Canada
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ferather]
#25589048 - 11/03/18 12:50 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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I feel like this thread is going off topic. I think the discussion of cubes colonizing wood deserves its own thread. We were discussing pans and coir.
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Ferather
Mycological



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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Pastywhyte]
#25589102 - 11/03/18 01:18 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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Oh, ok, based on the thread name and original post, and several posts after, I guessed the question was generic.
Quote:
mary fairchild said: Here's a simple question,
Has it been PROVEN that coco coir provides ANY nutritional value as a substrate component for cubensis culture? Is there even strong evidence to the above?
In other words, is coir just a media to hold the grain, flour, bran etc. that are used as food sources?
I guess that pans came later?
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TreasonX
Mr.Blue



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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ferather]
#25589120 - 11/03/18 01:29 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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I just use whatever Coir bricks I can get for the absolute cheapest on amazon and it always seems to work out, they cannot be found in stores where I live I've looked everywhere.-
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,972
Loc: Canada
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ferather] 1
#25589178 - 11/03/18 02:07 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferather said: Oh, ok, based on the thread name and original post, and several posts after, I guessed the question was generic.
Quote:
mary fairchild said: Here's a simple question,
Has it been PROVEN that coco coir provides ANY nutritional value as a substrate component for cubensis culture? Is there even strong evidence to the above?
In other words, is coir just a media to hold the grain, flour, bran etc. that are used as food sources?
I guess that pans came later?
You’re correct, the pans didn’t come until later. However it’s not about wood or other media. It’s about coir. If you have a lot of data on cubes on other media I think that merits its own thread.
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Ferather
Mycological



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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Pastywhyte]
#25589453 - 11/03/18 04:08 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ok, I don't mind, I'll pop my results in my Cub log.
My data is in relation to the carbon composition of coir: cellulose, hemicellulose and lignin (phenols). I am separating the carbon sources and testing them independently, ignore the wood.
Wood has the same carbon composition: cellulose, hemicellulose and lignin.
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Solipsis
m̶a̶d̶ disappointed scientist



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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ferather]
#25589706 - 11/03/18 05:49 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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I am skeptical about the problem with coir being the nutritional value. I thought it contained some chemicals which provide it with a resistance, so basically antifungals? (IIRC my colleage said this) If so, obviously not in such a way that it would totally piss of myc to not even be good as a casing ingredient or so water-soluble that it would leech into the myc and fuck it.
It's lignocelluloid material yea. So for wood decomposers it should be a substrate. Things slowing down growth could e.g. maybe be too high density or cross-linking of polymer chains in a way that makes decomposition hard, or active antifungals.. Just like there are types of trees/wood which are naturally resistant to fungal decay and I really don't think it is all because of resins.
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Ferather
Mycological



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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Solipsis]
#25589737 - 11/03/18 06:05 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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Technically speaking coco coir is better than wood for lignicolous mycelium, it holds more water, and is 5x richer in nitrogen. Coir does have a high sodium and potassium content, and must be treated prior to use. Trich eats coir just fine.
The water extractives and phenolic content in black tea inhibits growth, enough that it slows down. Wood, and coir should contain no starch and simple sugar, it's these two reasons.
If you enrich wood or coir with starch, all sorts of things will germinate.
Edited by Ferather (11/03/18 06:14 PM)
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mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 792
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Pastywhyte] 1
#25592053 - 11/04/18 04:44 PM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said:
Quote:
Ferather said: Oh, ok, based on the thread name and original post, and several posts after, I guessed the question was generic.
Quote:
mary fairchild said: Here's a simple question,
Has it been PROVEN that coco coir provides ANY nutritional value as a substrate component for cubensis culture? Is there even strong evidence to the above?
In other words, is coir just a media to hold the grain, flour, bran etc. that are used as food sources?
I guess that pans came later?
You’re correct, the pans didn’t come until later. However it’s not about wood or other media. It’s about coir. If you have a lot of data on cubes on other media I think that merits its own thread.
Yes, I posed the question of coir as a nutrient source for cubes because I supposed that quite a bit more work has been done with cubes than Pans. My interest is in Pans. I'm going on the assumption that since both cubes and Pans are dung eaters that for coir at least, what holds for cubes can be extended to Pans.
Thanks much to Ferather for his curiosity driven experiments!
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
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No problem, sorry for the confusion, good luck then I do not have pans.
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