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mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 792
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: bodhisatta] 1
#25534029 - 10/13/18 08:50 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said: I can’t find the thread where I read about people doing straight manure pans. But the gist was that they sterilized a myco bag of manure and colonized it with LC. Then “spawned” it to pasteurized manure. I will try to look for it later, probably got archived. At any rate reading that still didn’t make me think I should not use grain in my grows. Grain has too much upside.
The experimental grow i'm doing has nothing to do with trying to get people to stop using grains.
I'm doing this grow because of a statement that I have seen more than once on this site: Its been said, (maybe paraphrasing only a little) "Pans can be grown on coir". To me that implies that Pans are using coir as a food source- that may not have been the original intent of the statement but others may read it that way as well.
I never believed Pans could use coir as a food source, I dont think cubes can use it as a food source either for that matter- at least in the time frame of a typical grow; grain is the food. The statement has always irked me because I think it is potentially misleading.
Thats why i'm doing this grow. Testing coir as a food source as well as poo.
The whole reason I started the thread was to get a census of how others on this site regard coir- food source or not.
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
Edited by mary fairchild (10/13/18 09:20 AM)
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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That is a good idea, very similar to what I try to achieve. Learning how the wheel works doesn't mean you want to change the wheel, as such. Although I admit, when you learn something, and it turns out what your doing isn't so optimal, you can make various changes.
In the past (mostly in the Gourmet section) I've produced [Test log] threads, example: [Test log] Golden oyster. I would then fill it with various experiments, results, discussions and where possible conclusions.
Some data cannot be obtained without a lab, other sources are needed (online-books).
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If you have enough information already from this thread, I suggest starting a new one. Good luck, also PM me if you do make another test thread, with a link.
Edited by Ferather (10/13/18 10:27 AM)
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Caps McGee
Grandaddy Smurfshack



Registered: 10/28/17
Posts: 14,357
Loc: ally known as ...
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This is 6 pages of people trying to explain that "coir has nutrition, but it's not as easily accessible as that of the cooked grain, and the coir is used primarily as water retention "... none of it (starting with your question) has anything to do with gypsum... it's almost like you just want to bicker
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Wing
The Eye Tyrant



Registered: 04/25/11
Posts: 3,293
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Caps McGee]
#25534268 - 10/13/18 10:47 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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People have inoculated coir with LC and gotten fruits but I guess the question here is, does the mycelium network pass up other nutrients for more easily accessible ones?
Edited by Wing (10/13/18 11:31 AM)
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mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 792
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Wing]
#25534352 - 10/13/18 11:45 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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What you said- same as how I see it, if the mycelia can get the same nutrition, in a manner that expends less energy thats the way it'll go- makes sense but its just conjecture.
BTW- thanks for that info about fruiting from coir alone.
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
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acidninja
student



Registered: 09/08/16
Posts: 1,704
Loc: the system
Last seen: 14 days, 20 hours
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I thought the coir was just a moisture retaining and a structure for the myc to grab onto and fruit from? All the nutes come grom the grain
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- DMT
- Liberty Cap Gallery
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: acidninja]
#25534423 - 10/13/18 12:19 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well to be honest, there is a simple and easy solution which I mentioned before.
300g of hydrated grain, cooked as one batch (less variables).
Recipe A: 100g of grain, colonized, cased in 100g of verm + 200g water, fruit, then tally the yield. Recipe B: 100g of grain, colonized, cased in 100g of coir + 200g water, fruit, then tally the yield.
Control: 100g of grain, colonized, fruit, then tally the yield.
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Both recipe A and B should do better than the control, this is water availability. If coir makes a difference, positive or negative, its not just water.
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mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 792
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ferather]
#25534456 - 10/13/18 12:36 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yes, could tell if coir is supplementing the grain- as long as you took the colonized grain from the same source.
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Indeed, I should have added keep the spawn as uniform as possible. I would say make 300g of spawn, but some people would prefer to split it up. As long as the batch is made together, and the samples come from the same agar, there shouldn't be too much variation with split jars.
I'm not 100% sure of the volumetric density of 100g of verm, there is some chance 'Recipe A' might not fruit at all. If that happens, and yet 'Recipe B' continues without stalling and then fruits, this is due to composition.
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Here is an illustration of the grow-up method, technically if this was verm, it would stall. In this case I have added soluble macro-micro nutrients, but no sugar or starch.


I have not tried WL-Tek on coir, coco coir costs more.
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Wing
The Eye Tyrant



Registered: 04/25/11
Posts: 3,293
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Wing]
#25534513 - 10/13/18 12:59 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Wing said: People have inoculated coir with LC and gotten fruits but I guess the question here is, does the mycelium network pass up other nutrients for more easily accessible ones?
I'm not saying you'd be satisfied with the results. I tried it years ago, among other wild experiments IIRC I got about 10 grams dry from about 15-20 jars of coir inoculated with LC. Compared to roughly the same amount of jars of spawn and bulk substrate that most people use per mono it was considered a failure.
-------------------- My Old Grow Logs
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,972
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
mary fairchild said:
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: I can’t find the thread where I read about people doing straight manure pans. But the gist was that they sterilized a myco bag of manure and colonized it with LC. Then “spawned” it to pasteurized manure. I will try to look for it later, probably got archived. At any rate reading that still didn’t make me think I should not use grain in my grows. Grain has too much upside.
The experimental grow i'm doing has nothing to do with trying to get people to stop using grains.
I'm doing this grow because of a statement that I have seen more than once on this site: Its been said, (maybe paraphrasing only a little) "Pans can be grown on coir". To me that implies that Pans are using coir as a food source- that may not have been the original intent of the statement but others may read it that way as well.
I never believed Pans could use coir as a food source, I dont think cubes can use it as a food source either for that matter- at least in the time frame of a typical grow; grain is the food. The statement has always irked me because I think it is potentially misleading.
Thats why i'm doing this grow. Testing coir as a food source as well as poo.
The whole reason I started the thread was to get a census of how others on this site regard coir- food source or not.
I guess I just assume that when a person refers to growing on an ingredient typically used as bulk media they are still planning to involve grain or flour at some point. Since I regard things like manure, coir, straw, verm, coffee, worm castings, chix poo, sawdust as being lower nutrition I save them for bulk. I don’t think any one of those on their own is ideal, and since a healthy sub generally is a balance between sufficient nutes and water it should only stand that some mixing should be worthwhile. If someone said they grow on manure, I usually envision grain verm or straw being in the mix as well.
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Wing]
#25534564 - 10/13/18 01:25 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Wing said: I'm not saying you'd be satisfied with the results. I tried it years ago, among other wild experiments IIRC I got about 10 grams dry from about 15-20 jars of coir inoculated with LC. Compared to roughly the same amount of jars of spawn and bulk substrate that most people use per mono it was considered a failure.
I can explain that result. Coco coir handling is the same as wood and paper pellets, it needs calcium treatment and also enrichment.
"Because coir pith is high in sodium and potassium, it is treated before use as a growth medium for plants or fungi by soaking in a calcium buffering solution" -- Source | Acid-free paper (Web, Wiki).
Wood, paper pellets and coir all need nitrogen enrichment prior or during use to promote good growth (high in carbon).
The more spawn you add to coir, the higher the total media nitrogen value (the same as adding bran to wood). You added live mycelium suspended in a carbon rich liquid, into a low nutrient high carbon substrate.
This is the equivalent of adding nutrient free sucrose to 100% cellulose, no nutrients (Carbon + more carbon).
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said: ...Since I regard things like manure, coir, straw, verm, coffee, worm castings, chix poo, sawdust as being lower nutrition I save them for bulk. I don’t think any one of those on their own is ideal, and since a healthy sub generally is a balance between sufficient nutes and water it should only stand that some mixing should be worthwhile...
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mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 792
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: acidninja]
#25534565 - 10/13/18 01:25 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
acidninja said: I thought the coir was just a moisture retaining and a structure for the myc to grab onto and fruit from? All the nutes come grom the grain
Essentially yes, coir serves as a moisture source and its looseness (friability) is believed to facilitate the movement of mycelia thru the substrate.
This whole thread (with a few deviations) addresses the point but I could see how it might not seem clear. The wrinkle is that altho coir has the nutrients mycelia needs, it isn't very accessible for dung loving mycelia. So if its a food source at all I think most would agree it is not significant.
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
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acidninja
student



Registered: 09/08/16
Posts: 1,704
Loc: the system
Last seen: 14 days, 20 hours
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Quote:
mary fairchild said:
Quote:
acidninja said: I thought the coir was just a moisture retaining and a structure for the myc to grab onto and fruit from? All the nutes come grom the grain
Essentially yes, coir serves as a moisture source and its looseness (friability) is believed to facilitate the movement of mycelia thru the substrate.
This whole thread (with a few deviations) addresses the point but I could see how it might not seem clear. The wrinkle is that altho coir has the nutrients mycelia needs, it isn't very accessible for dung loving mycelia. So if its a food source at all I think most would agree it is not significant.

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- DMT
- Liberty Cap Gallery
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mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 792
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Pastywhyte]
#25534616 - 10/13/18 01:46 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said:
Quote:
mary fairchild said:
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: I can’t find the thread where I read about people doing straight manure pans. But the gist was that they sterilized a myco bag of manure and colonized it with LC. Then “spawned” it to pasteurized manure. I will try to look for it later, probably got archived. At any rate reading that still didn’t make me think I should not use grain in my grows. Grain has too much upside.
The experimental grow i'm doing has nothing to do with trying to get people to stop using grains.
I'm doing this grow because of a statement that I have seen more than once on this site: Its been said, (maybe paraphrasing only a little) "Pans can be grown on coir". To me that implies that Pans are using coir as a food source- that may not have been the original intent of the statement but others may read it that way as well.
I never believed Pans could use coir as a food source, I dont think cubes can use it as a food source either for that matter- at least in the time frame of a typical grow; grain is the food. The statement has always irked me because I think it is potentially misleading.
Thats why i'm doing this grow. Testing coir as a food source as well as poo.
The whole reason I started the thread was to get a census of how others on this site regard coir- food source or not.
I guess I just assume that when a person refers to growing on an ingredient typically used as bulk media they are still planning to involve grain or flour at some point. Since I regard things like manure, coir, straw, verm, coffee, worm castings, chix poo, sawdust as being lower nutrition I save them for bulk. I don’t think any one of those on their own is ideal, and since a healthy sub generally is a balance between sufficient nutes and water it should only stand that some mixing should be worthwhile. If someone said they grow on manure, I usually envision grain verm or straw being in the mix as well.
Thanks Pasty for that clarification, I guess i've been looking at things thru a Panaeolis lens for a while. Its long been said that either Pans need poo or that poo helps them grow, they dont seem to say that about cubes so much- so when its said pans grow ON coir I think some, like me, may misinterpret that to mean they the are using coir as a food source.
I really think that for Pans there is a big difference between coir and poo as substrate additives, if there is a difference i'd like to ferret that out.
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
Edited by mary fairchild (10/13/18 02:42 PM)
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,972
Loc: Canada
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I think pans can make do with poo but would prefer grain. Water supply is nice as well. It’s not different with cubes either.
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mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 792
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Pastywhyte]
#25535192 - 10/13/18 06:54 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Cool, For me its worth looking at regardless of the results. I certainly dont plan on omitting grain on a regular basis because I use so little anyway.
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
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R.I.P.Zappa
Myco Melyco


Registered: 03/30/18
Posts: 1,212
Loc: In Between Space and Time
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Grey mold likes coir. There is gypsum in it to so mabye that helped it.
Forgot this jar for a month on my table, lid on, used it for psudo casing to cover exposed grains.
-------------------- -The heaviest thing one will ever carry is a thought-
-"Like a Blind man In an orgy you gotta feel things out.".-
-When we agree about our hallucinations, we call it “reality".-
-If you defy authority because your told to, that's no better than blindly trusting authority.-
psychonautwiki.org
How it should & shouldn't look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE
BOD's Easy AF OAT prep tek.
Principles of mushroom growing for beginners
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: R.I.P.Zappa]
#25549415 - 10/19/18 07:34 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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I made an agar using calcium bicarbonate (from CaCO3), and added macro-micro nutrients (soluble) for testing a few times. One of the times I got black mold germinating and growing out, my guess, it's the same mold seen on drywall.
Drywall is made from gypsum, it contains 10% cellulose in addition. Interesting result.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,972
Loc: Canada
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: R.I.P.Zappa]
#25549459 - 10/19/18 07:53 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
R.I.P.Zappa said: Grey mold likes coir. There is gypsum in it to so mabye that helped it.
Forgot this jar for a month on my table, lid on, used it for psudo casing to cover exposed grains.

Are you sure that there is no other media mixed in with your coir brick? I had a bad batch of coir once full of seeds, they were the vector for when it molded. I have kept quality coir hydrated for years and it was fine. I personally dislike eco earth coir because of the random crap I find it it constantly. Hydro shop coir is even worse.
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