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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ziran]
#25532680 - 10/12/18 04:05 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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I've never understood gypsum (CaSO4·2-H2O), other than calcium and sulphur as nutrients, it's still odd to use it for any type of pH effect. Calcium is an alkali, and sulphur is an acid, when combed gypsum has a pH of around 6.5, it's not a neutralizer.
If the mycelium cleaves and utilizes both, that's fine, if it uses all the calcium, you get sulphur.
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mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 792
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ferather]
#25532751 - 10/12/18 04:47 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Regarding pans, I see no evidence that they do not use the grain as primary nutrition similar to cubes.
Does Panaeolus need grain like cultivated cubes seem to? How will they fare on hpoo or coir alone?
Well here's the test:
Pan cyan: Liquid culture->hpoo,verm*->fruiting. (No grain) ->coir,verm*-->fruiting. (No grain)
*[Both substrates have gypsum & azomite as well]
I'm not saying that Pans dont eat grain- if its there, they'll eat it but how will they do with poo alone. The LC's have already been inoculated into the two substrates.
Best would have been to compare +/- grain. But I changed the exp. in midstream.
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
Edited by mary fairchild (10/12/18 05:07 PM)
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,915
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ferather]
#25532952 - 10/12/18 06:25 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Water cleaves it into Ca+2 and SO4-2 and ions flux across membranes as needed.
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Asura
Cyantist


Registered: 08/01/11
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: bodhisatta]
#25532973 - 10/12/18 06:37 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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mary, I will say that I attempted to recreate you and BH's spawn bags that were light on the grain. I'm kind of giving up on it and going back to colonizing grain. I just didn't see the growth that you guys did. Next attempt will be to spawn grain, but to 1:3 or 1:4 to test it out again.
Granted, my spawn bag skills...SUCK
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,972
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
mary fairchild said:
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Regarding pans, I see no evidence that they do not use the grain as primary nutrition similar to cubes.
Does Panaeolus need grain like cultivated cubes seem to? How will they fare on hpoo or coir alone?
Well here's the test:
Pan cyan: Liquid culture->hpoo,verm*->fruiting. (No grain) ->coir,verm*-->fruiting. (No grain)
*[Both substrates have gypsum & azomite as well]
I'm not saying that Pans dont eat grain- if its there, they'll eat it but how will they do with poo alone. The LC's have already been inoculated into the two substrates.
Best would have been to compare +/- grain. But I changed the exp. in midstream.
Those are interesting questions. How would a result either way change the way you would attempt to grow them? Are you thinking LC to bulk media in open air or something eventually? If a result like “they can grow on straight coir” or “you can see killer yields on just manure” (which we already know to be true as far as pan cyan is concerned) was the product of some rigorous testing, I’m still pretty sure my general strategy isn’t going to change much. Grain is so cheap and pans need little water compared to robust cubes that I’m not sure what benefit you intend to see.
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 62,905
Loc: Van Isle
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Pastywhyte]
#25533086 - 10/12/18 07:32 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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agreed grain will be my go to, ive done a lot on coir even with very low ratios but grains cheap so is bulk. Good luck
-------------------- It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn
I'm tired do me a favor
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Asura
Cyantist


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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: cronicr]
#25533124 - 10/12/18 07:53 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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For pans, I thought the idea was to encourage them to fruit All of my pans have been very aggressive culture-wise, but then they want to overlay.
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mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 792
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: cronicr]
#25533146 - 10/12/18 08:01 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Those are interesting questions. How would a result either way change the way you would attempt to grow them?
At this stage i'm not thinking about changing anything. More to satisfy curiosity.
BTW- I was unaware that it has already been shown that Pans were grown well on poo alone. I dont spend a lot of time looking at the older grows, can you show me the link to that/those grows?
Edited by mary fairchild (10/13/18 06:38 AM)
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mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 792
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Asura]
#25533154 - 10/12/18 08:06 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asura said: mary, I will say that I attempted to recreate you and BH's spawn bags that were light on the grain. I'm kind of giving up on it and going back to colonizing grain. I just didn't see the growth that you guys did. Next attempt will be to spawn grain, but to 1:3 or 1:4 to test it out again.
Granted, my spawn bag skills...SUCK
Have you tried the bags that have injection ports? Way easier.
Well I'm trying a good fruiting strain without grain- excited about the result either way. We'll see!
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
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Caps McGee
Grandaddy Smurfshack



Registered: 10/28/17
Posts: 14,357
Loc: ally known as ...
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Quote:
DimensionShifter said: birthing shrooms is an art it takes time to master
you ll figure it out
Just set them up and let them grow? I am literally the least artistic, most awkward person I know and I'm putting more out than I can eat, 1-4 dry ounces at a time! Lol, really doesn't even require skill
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: bodhisatta]
#25533900 - 10/13/18 07:36 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: Water cleaves it into Ca+2 and SO4-2 and ions flux across membranes as needed.
Ok, I did some additional online research, I found gypsum to be only slightly soluble in water.
Solubility chart (Web, Wiki) | Solubility table (Web, Wiki)
So any water cleaving is minimal, solubility also reduces with higher temperatures.
In addition, gypsum is used as grit with grain, and remains as grit when colonized. This would also suggest it's not very soluble and isn't utilized very much.
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In general, in order for mycelium to utilize anything, it must be soluble (enzymes, reactions), or small enough to pass through the cell wall. Lime (CaCO3) is 'insoluble', and will not be absorbed by mycelium, however: CaCO3 + H2O + CO2 = Ca(HCO3)2.
Calcium bicarbonate is 'soluble', but in this case, only in water, it's absorbed by mycelium. Mycelium will be expelling CO2 as a waste component, expelled CO2 will react.
Calcium carbonate (Web, Wiki) | Calcium bicarbonate (Web, Wiki)
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Gypsum is also formed as a by-product of sulfide oxidation ... when the sulfuric acid generated reacts with calcium carbonate. Its presence indicates oxidizing conditions. Gypsum, source (Web, Wiki)
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Calcium bicarbonate also counts as a very weak carbon source (tested).
Most common substrates shouldn't have a sulphur deficiency. Personally I would suggest lime for calcium.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,972
Loc: Canada
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ferather]
#25533905 - 10/13/18 07:40 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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I can’t find the thread where I read about people doing straight manure pans. But the gist was that they sterilized a myco bag of manure and colonized it with LC. Then “spawned” it to pasteurized manure. I will try to look for it later, probably got archived. At any rate reading that still didn’t make me think I should not use grain in my grows. Grain has too much upside.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,915
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ferather]
#25533943 - 10/13/18 08:06 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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We use at most a handful of gypsum for a batch of spawn. It all dissolves.
Im -100% interested in how you applied what you learned from wiki articles to gypsum being used in growing on a theoretical level. Especially because I've actually used gypsum growing cubes before.
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R.I.P.Zappa
Myco Melyco


Registered: 03/30/18
Posts: 1,212
Loc: In Between Space and Time
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Caps McGee]
#25533956 - 10/13/18 08:12 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yup just some guidance than practice. Like riding a bike.
Bod: "A four year old can grow Cubes"
-------------------- -The heaviest thing one will ever carry is a thought-
-"Like a Blind man In an orgy you gotta feel things out.".-
-When we agree about our hallucinations, we call it “reality".-
-If you defy authority because your told to, that's no better than blindly trusting authority.-
psychonautwiki.org
How it should & shouldn't look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE
BOD's Easy AF OAT prep tek.
Principles of mushroom growing for beginners
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: bodhisatta]
#25533961 - 10/13/18 08:15 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ok, small enough amounts to react, CaCO3 is the same, it stops reacting past a certain pH. Do you know how much % gypsum to spawn that is? Just for future reference.
Answer to edit: I've read people testing it with no conclusive outcome, I also found the same. However I am using a different recipe, where both calcium and sulphur are provided.
If I had a calcium and-or sulphur deficiency, I might see results.
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Here are some links for dung loving mycelium, hopefully it's helpful.
Coprophilous fungi (Web, Springer) Coprophilous fungi (Web, Wiki)
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,915
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ferather]
#25533967 - 10/13/18 08:18 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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A pinch per jar. Or like a teaspoon.
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: bodhisatta]
#25533975 - 10/13/18 08:25 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ok thanks. My main point was gypsum won't do much for media pH, it doesn't neutralize acids.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,972
Loc: Canada
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ferather]
#25533981 - 10/13/18 08:28 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Who is using gypsum to neutralize acids? We use lime to buffer ph.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,915
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ferather]
#25533987 - 10/13/18 08:30 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferather said: Ok thanks. My main point was gypsum won't do much for media pH, it doesn't neutralize acids.
Never did and no one ever expected it to. Gypsum doesn't do nearly anything for pH and it's not a buffer.
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: bodhisatta]
#25534003 - 10/13/18 08:37 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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