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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ferather] 2
#25524033 - 10/09/18 10:12 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferather said: What mustangbob3 said (here). + https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24947745/page/1
Good job with your explanation.

interesting work!
i have always wondered about adding ribose to substrate as this is the main sugar used to make Adenosine triphosphate at the cells, the energy currency of the cells.
as a side note the ribose is phosphorylated by the cell creating ribose 5 phosphate before the adenine base is added, this inturn is also used as the fuel to create amino acids, namely tryptophan.
this is how all our actives are made, im not sure if anyone has ever tried to supplement ribose for easy energy release and creation of atp and as a side note increasing actives within, most try adding tryptophan but this dosent work, adding ribose the raws may be an effective way of stimulating extra as the limiting factor in amino acid formation in the mycelium is d-ribose.
Quote:
I'm 100% in it for the kicks
Any data on the changes to pH over time? I've got a cheapo tester but I'd like to compare to known results to make sure I'm against a similar set.
im not aware of any studies and tbh its fresh ground for us hobbists and to be honest we dont even know the difference genetically from subsets within the same strain so growing out 1 isolate or culture against another may have different results even if from the same locale/ print , its within the multiplicity of the gene combinations to create potentially vastly differing outcomes even with starting with one base/ print.
i.e you could grow out 20 diff cultures originating from the same print and say grow them on wood to see how they preform and some will be more adept at surviving than others and until real breeding has been done with our cubes to isolate alleles that we choose really its a free for all and ur going have produce ur own facts and figures
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Edited by mustangbob3 (10/09/18 10:27 AM)
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3]
#25524081 - 10/09/18 10:39 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thanks, good luck with your experiments (and grows).
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trip_hazard
Lost in thunk



Registered: 08/29/18
Posts: 166
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3]
#25524124 - 10/09/18 10:57 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
mustangbob3 said:
im not aware of any studies and tbh its fresh ground for us hobbists and to be honest we dont even know the difference genetically from subsets within the same strain so growing out 1 isolate or culture against another may have different results even if from the same locale/ print , its within the multiplicity of the gene combinations to create potentially vastly differing outcomes even with starting with one base/ print.
i.e you could grow out 20 diff cultures originating from the same print and say grow them on wood to see how they preform and some will be more adept at surviving than others and until real breeding has been done with our cubes to isolate alleles that we choose really its a free for all and ur going have produce ur own facts and figures
I feel this so much - the more I read the more convinced I become that comparative grows, even from isolates, are still going to provide only anecdotal evidence at best. I can't complain though, trial and error have gotten us this far.
Thanks for your continued efforts to grow the knowledge base!
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ferather] 1
#25524127 - 10/09/18 10:57 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferather said: Thanks, good luck with your experiments (and grows).
you to brother, im not online much and dont document what i do but i will keep an eye on ur work in future.
im paranoid but one day if i have something worth showing will post it up, u all do a great job here of growing and my grows are not really reinventing the wheel, keep at what u do anyway, interesting stuff
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Edited by mustangbob3 (10/09/18 11:07 AM)
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KitchenChef
Stranger

Registered: 09/11/18
Posts: 53
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3] 2
#25524455 - 10/09/18 01:25 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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well elephant poop is still my favorite but not everyone's got an elephant in their backyard.
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: KitchenChef] 1
#25524912 - 10/09/18 05:01 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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I laughed, so here is some Google data as a reward:
Elephant dung was estimated as: 48.18% C, 0.86% N, 0.34% P, 0.37% K+, 0.19% Ca2+, 0.05% Mg2+ and 0.25% Na+ with a pH value of 6.9. Dung was rich in crude fibre (21.4%) and low in crude fat (2.8%). Cellulose, hemi cellulose and lignin fractions were accounted as 35.8, 30.1 and 17.5 per cent respectively. http://krishikosh.egranth.ac.in/handle/1/5810028909
Elephant dung pH test video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mpPzSoeGb4
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Note: Cubensis grows from dung with a pH of 6.5+, dung is also a fertilizer.
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Extra data:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25493075#25493075 https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25494952#25494952 https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25516465#25516465
http://agritech.tnau.ac.in/org_farm/orgfarm_coircompost.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid-free_paper
Edited by Ferather (10/09/18 06:05 PM)
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mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 792
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Kizzle]
#25530337 - 10/11/18 04:19 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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The original question was, "has it been proven that COCO COIR provides ANY nutritional value as a substrate component for cubensis culture"? Thanks for the responses, esp. Mustangbob & Kizzle.
This is part of the reason I asked the question:
I would like to compare coir to horse poo as food sources for Panaeolus culture. I want to omit any grain or other obvious food sources. No grain, looks like a tall order for coir. I dont think straight up coir has a chance alone against hpoo because there may be other factors that are necessary for coir to be a food source.
Anyone have any ideas whether coir alone (no grain) can be made to be an excellent food source for Pan/cube mycelia, and if so how?
After reading the responses on this thread it looks like my simple question doesn't have a simple answer- that makes this topic way more interesting to me. Some are saying that coir provides at most minimal nutritional value in a typical cubensis run. Others are saying that coir has the requisite lignin & lignocellulose compexes to make it an excellent food source for cubes. The two positions aren’t necessarily at odds- just that the answer may be more complicated.
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,915
Loc: Milky way
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Someone would need to test it. Hasn't been done. The people saying what enzymes cubes have should produce something compelling to prove that cubes actually have those enzymes.
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mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 792
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: bodhisatta]
#25530474 - 10/11/18 05:33 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thanks for the response Bodhi,
I dont know enough about this but it looks like both dung loving shrooms and wood loving shrooms act on ligno-cellulosic compounds, but a dung loving shroom isn't going to digest wood even though wood possesses those compounds, so why should it use coir as a food source; thats not dung either. On top of that I dont see any convincing evidence on this site that dung loving shrooms are actually using coir as a food source.
Well i'm set up to do the experiment anyway.
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
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Caps McGee
Grandaddy Smurfshack



Registered: 10/28/17
Posts: 14,357
Loc: ally known as ...
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I don't feel cubes do use coir as a nutrient source...
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elasticaltiger
Like Tigers in Coitus




Registered: 06/24/13
Posts: 8,438
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Quote:
mary fairchild said: Thanks for the response Bodhi,
I dont know enough about this but it looks like both dung loving shrooms and wood loving shrooms act on ligno-cellulosic compounds, but a dung loving shroom isn't going to digest wood even though wood possesses those compounds, so why should it use coir as a food source; thats not dung either. On top of that I dont see any convincing evidence on this site that dung loving shrooms are actually using coir as a food source.
Well i'm set up to do the experiment anyway.
Hey Mary,
Do you ever wonder if there is a genetic component to how well cubensis do on coir? Like a lot of people say that cubensis have been domesticated now and I wonder how much they may have just adapted to growing on coir since it's such a popular medium.
I mean any time you take a spore print from a fruit grown on coir you're taking genetics that were able to perform well on that medium. Over hundreds of generations theres gotta be a genetic component to cubensis performance on grains and coir. Were the ones selecting the good performers after all.
-------------------- First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber
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Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger! No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit.
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Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen
Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson
EZEKIEL 23:20
Edited by elasticaltiger (10/12/18 02:27 AM)
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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I've tested cubensis on cellulose (no sugar, no starch, no spawn), it grows just fine, it also fruits just fine. Cubensis will not grow on wood due to it's acidity and it cannot tolerate inhibitory plant phenols.*
Cubensis grows on dung, which has a pH of 6.5+, dung is also nutritional (lots of nitrogen). Dung is high in cellulose and hemicellulose, no notable simple sugar and starches.

Chemical composition of horse manure compared to wood (PDF, Page 12) **
Why not spawn to 100g of verm vs 100g of coir and compare them in yield. Both the coir and verm should contain the same amount of water.
* Wood is also not very nutritional, trace nitrogen.
** N-tot:
1.48 × 10−2 = 1.48 x 0.01 = 0.0148 8.00 × 10−3 = 8.0 x 0.001 = 0.0080
Edited by Ferather (10/12/18 05:24 AM)
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,915
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ferather]
#25531398 - 10/12/18 05:14 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Data on dung is not the data on the dung you used. You didn't measure pH you Googled what it should theoretically be "6.5+" If cubes cant tolerate inhibitory phenols why when people accidentally use wood do cubes colonize it just fine but fruit poorly?
Got pictures of these fruits?
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: bodhisatta]
#25531422 - 10/12/18 05:36 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: Data on dung is not the data on the dung you used.
WTF does that mean? Plenty of people use horse dung. Look at the composition, and stop arguing.
Quote:
bodhisatta said: You didn't measure pH you Googled what it should theoretically be "6.5+"
I've done various tests on pH, inhibitory phenols and nutrients, not all of which I have shared.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24947745/page/1
Quote:
bodhisatta said: If cubes cant tolerate inhibitory phenols why when people accidentally use wood do cubes colonize it just fine but fruit poorly?
Composition and age (no doubt they where also using spawn), various phenols break down over time. ** They wont fruit well due to lack of nitrogen and other essential nutrients it requires.
Even wood lovers do better when a nitrogen fixating organism is present.
Quote:
bodhisatta said: Got pictures of these fruits?
Given the amount of images and fruits you have produced, why not give us your scientific feedback. No offense, but so far you are yet to provide any conclusive counter evidence or data.
** Mycelium also oxidize medias, phenols break down to oxygen (oxidize).
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I am happy to answer questions (and be corrected). Here is some additional data in terms of wood.
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Hardwood and Softwood pH (Web, Image).
As you can see wood is acidic, if you analyze the pH of dung cubensis grows from it will be ~pH 7+. So there is the first hurdle, I can also tell you oysters do better at pH 7+ on wood.
The next step is the nutritional composition, and what is known as the carbon-nitrogen ratio.
For carbon, this is materials such as cellulose, starch, simple sugars, phenols, so on. For nitrogen, this is proteins, ammonia or urea, some phenols and so on.
Gourmet growers will increase costs, and risks, by adding wheat bran, other, to wood products. This is classed as enrichment, where the additive makes up for deficiency's in the media.
Note: The enrichment will also add starch and sugar, which 'was' void in wood.
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Rough carbon to nitrogen guide:
The Carbon:Nitrogen Ratio (C:N)
Paper products: Contain about 42% carbon, 0.24% nitrogen, this is a carbon to nitrogen ratio of 175:1 (42 / 0.24 = 175:1). Wood products: Contain about 50% carbon, 0.10% nitrogen, this is a carbon to nitrogen ratio of 500:1 (50 / 0.10 = 500:1).
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Wheat bran to wood example:
Composition | Carbon: 42g per 100g (42%) | Nitrogen: 2.56g per 100g (2.56%).
100g wood + 100g bran = 200g | 50 + 42 = 92, / 2.00 = [46% carbon] | 0.1 + 2.56 = 2.66, / 2.00 = [1.33% nitrogen] | 46 / 1.33 = [35:1]. 100g wood + 75g bran = 175g | 50 + 32 = 82, / 1.75 = [47% carbon] | 0.1 + 1.92 = 2.02, / 1.75 = [1.15% nitrogen] | 47 / 1.15 = [41:1]. 100g wood + 50g bran = 150g | 50 + 21 = 71, / 1.50 = [47% carbon] | 0.1 + 1.28 = 1.38, / 1.50 = [0.92% nitrogen] | 47 / 0.92 = [51:1]. 100g wood + 25g bran = 125g | 50 + 11 = 61, / 1.25 = [49% carbon] | 0.1 + 0.64 = 0.74, / 1.25 = [0.59% nitrogen] | 49 / 0.59 = [83:1].
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Extra data:
Cubensis germinated from dry spores, on a black tea bag @ pH 5.5, but stalled after 2mm. When the phenols where removed, pH 6.5, and sucrose added, it fully colonized. *
Tea leaves composition, trace sugar (3% per 100g), no starch, rich.
* Most of the present sugars where removed with the phenols during water saturation. Cellulose is relatively inert, it's slow to release as a carbon source.
A Review of Polyphenolics in Oak Woods | Phenolic content in tea
Lignicolous (wood loving) mycelium on T-Gel (black tea + agar):

Enzymatic Degradation of Lignin in Soil
Edited by Ferather (10/12/18 07:54 AM)
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,972
Loc: Canada
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ferather] 1
#25531707 - 10/12/18 08:34 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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This has been an interesting read. Regarding pans, I see no evidence that they do not use the grain as primary nutrition similar to cubes. So using coir vs manure seems to be a non issue in my mind. BREEDERS did pan cambos on cased rye, no manure and no coir.
Quote:
BREEDERS said: i make this grow log very simple, for purpose to make prints as fast as possible
so i just case Spawn (Rye) with 1cm (pasteurize) poting soil

Quote:
BREEDERS said: 4th Flsuh, with biggest panaeolus Sandoze Ever 
I also had pretty darn good results with v tek pans. I cased em with coir and they did pretty good. I should get some going again and do a lot or something fun. Also been enjoying the discussion here, quite informative.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,915
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Pastywhyte]
#25531782 - 10/12/18 09:23 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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It means someone may have fed your horse or cow something in addition to their normal diet.
I'm really glad you're into theoretically derived data but despite what you think the enzyme profiles are there is real life data that I can see with my eyes. Vs stuff compiled from books applied to cubes with no growing of cubes.
Your big issue posting any cube results is the legality, people from your country post plenty of pictures. If you're a scientist I'm sure you can figure out how to take some non incriminating ones.
Its like me looking up rocket science. Saying something will or won't work based on things I read. But never having played with a rocket myself. Not as interesting as it looks at face value
You'll say something did or didn't work based on cube mycelium growing out 2mm. Which could be completely explained by intracellular energy reserves rather than metabolism. Either way even with some results they need a rigorous and critical interpretation.
I could go pour a bottle of water in my car and it would turn on and work still. So then I could go saying putting a cup of water in your gas tank works. And could stretch it further saying well engines must burn the water then! Likewise I could drink 15mL of gas and not die. Doesn't mean I metabolized gas.
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mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 792
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Quote:
elasticaltiger said: Hey Mary,
Do you ever wonder if there is a genetic component to how well cubensis do on coir? Like a lot of people say that cubensis have been domesticated now and I wonder how much they may have just adapted to growing on coir since it's such a popular medium.
I mean any time you take a spore print from a fruit grown on coir you're taking genetics that were able to perform well on that medium. Over hundreds of generations theres gotta be a genetic component to cubensis performance on grains and coir. Were the ones selecting the good performers after all.
Hey ET- thanks for keeping this thread going, its been thought provoking.
A simple experiment: Do cultivated cubes use coir as a food source?
Grow multispore cube mycelia without grain spawn, ie. inoculate liquid culture of cube mycelia directly to a coir based substrate that lacks grain, flour, bran or any other possible nute source except coir. Thats exactly what i’m doing right now except i’m doing it with Panaeolus.
My vote is that as long as grains, an easier food source than coir, are available in quantity- cubes will always use the easier, higher calorie food source, so there would be no selective pressure to use coir.
If over generations you kept reducing the ratio of grain to coir- could you wean them off the grain completely?….
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
Edited by mary fairchild (10/12/18 02:49 PM)
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mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 792
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Ferather] 1
#25532442 - 10/12/18 02:24 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferather said: I've tested cubensis on cellulose (no sugar, no starch, no spawn), it grows just fine, it also fruits just fine.
Interesting about cellulose alone:
Liquid culture->mixture of cellulose and coir, & skip the grain.
BTW- thanks for the reference on horse poo.
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Absolutely no problem. Cellulose decay with Cubensis mycelium does not differ 'too much' from that of an Oyster mycelium. Both Cubensis and Oysters take about 4-5 months to colonize 125g of slow release cellulose (WL-Tek, pH 7.5).
Lignicolous mycelium will target various phenols, as a faster release carbon (some are water soluble). In order to amplify Cubensis growth (also works with Oysters) add starch (or even spawn).
By adding spawn, starch or sugar the timing drops down to 4 weeks.
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How does that work?
In order to decay cellulose at a fast rate, additional enzymes, usable surface area and cells are required. Enzymes are a type of protein, composed of C-H-N-O, some will also contain other elements.
The faster release carbon source, and nutrients, allows the mycelium to speed up.
Note: After 4-5 months, the mycelium is equal vs with spawn.
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Depending on the amount of spawn used, it can be classed as media enrichment. If I use enough grain spawn, I can achieve similar ratios vs adding bran.
Unfortunately there are various drawbacks with high spawn, and 100% grain.
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Ziran
The Hero of Time




Registered: 02/03/16
Posts: 6,034
Loc: Temple of Time
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Quote:
Shroomspective said: So what about the age old Gypsum (calcium sulfate dihydrate) question? Does this have any advantage for mycelium, From what I've seen there may be a benefit on the calcium side
from my understanding, gypsum is mainly to help prevent ph swings.
-------------------- Song Of Healing
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Ziran's Teks
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The Chinese word for nature is zìrán and it means that of which is of itself.

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