|
Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
|
Caps McGee
Grandaddy Smurfshack



Registered: 10/28/17
Posts: 14,357
Loc: ally known as ...
|
Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3]
#25522841 - 10/08/18 07:12 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
And gypsum doesn't do it?
|
mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
|
Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Caps McGee]
#25522842 - 10/08/18 07:13 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Caps McGee said: I mean from fruiting... not senescence persay (I don't guess) but like actually tired lol... idk... maybe it's pH?
yes ph now ur on to something lol 
Quote:
Caps McGee said: And gypsum doesn't do it?
no and lime bath coir dont either
--------------------
Edited by mustangbob3 (10/08/18 07:24 PM)
|
mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
|
Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Caps McGee]
#25522843 - 10/08/18 07:13 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
oopps
--------------------
Edited by mustangbob3 (10/08/18 07:24 PM)
|
mushboy
modboy



Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 35,378
Loc: eating the cats
|
Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3]
#25522848 - 10/08/18 07:16 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Anyone dunk with gypsum soaked water?
(Blind guess)
Edit: took me too long to read the thread.
Edited by mushboy (10/08/18 07:16 PM)
|
mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
|
Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mushboy]
#25522861 - 10/08/18 07:21 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
mushboy said: Anyone dunk with gypsum soaked water?
(Blind guess)
Edit: took me too long to read the thread.
tbh lime bathed coir isnt enough to buffer really so its not about a one time addition, u need to add it along with any h20 to keep adding it and keep bringing down the ph, this is troublesome thats why nature is the key, in nature its bacteria that solve the problem and then plants by using the by products of the bacteria.
think of benefiacial bacvteria in cannabis growing, thats what need to be achieved, bacteria that is in symbiosis with cubes and cohabits but neutralises the ammonia and even possibly a live casing like grass clipped short so the converted ammonia is used by the plants.
back to nature
but its alot of work, fun science but not really worth it when u can just spawn a new tub and get plenty more faster
but brings me back full circle and what if production wasnt ur aim and u rock one tub and want the most bang for buck?
--------------------
|
mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 792
|
Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3]
#25522878 - 10/08/18 07:32 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
mustangbob3 said:
Quote:
mary fairchild said:
Quote:
mustangbob3 said:
Quote:
bodhisatta said: Here is my take. Grains are obviously a nutrient source. i get half ounce dried fruits on the 4th+ flush sometimes a 6th flush will even put out a couple half oz monsters. so if there is still enough energy 4-6 flushes in to put out a couple of zips dry. Either one of two things is what I can logically deduce from that. Either we come no where near effectively using the energy/nutrients in spawn before the grow goes south and we have a huge over abundance of nutrition. Or the coir is nutritional.
Either way even being my scientifically orientated questioning self I don't worry about which one is the case. I would like to know but I don't think we could really find out without doing genetic knockout studies what would take years and thousands of trials to do empirically.
my point exactly, we have far more nutes in the spawn than needed BUT helps us with faster colonisation ect reducing risk and over time we gain nute from the coir.
i think of grains as a big mac and coir as a slow release energy.
either way what stops our fruiting after x flushes is NOT lack of nutes its purely from acidification
really the turning point would be to control ph and h20 to give the time for us to make the most of the potential flushes but its easier to make a new tub with fresh spawn for production reasons, but if u only rock one tub a year i can see how stretching it out too eek the most out would be valuable and certainly possible.
for few years i have researched bacteria and adding it too subs to create a symbiosis to allow the ammonia to be stabilized in the sub and prevent acidification, bodhi u might remmber my hydroponic mushrooms , i used rock wool block and injected it with lc then fruited using a ceramic watering spike feeding brewing wort, this was successful as it only fed what the mushrooms could draw by osmotic pressure and used the active transport mechanisms of fungi as the power source, the myc colonised the ceramic pores like u see on terracotta pots for plants and allowed the myc to draw nuterient as its own rate never under fed or over fed, but i never developed a better nute medium, this acidification was the downfall of my project in the end.
now and then i go back and play but still trying to find the perfect nirtogen fixing baceteria that will cohabit with our cubes
with unlimited nute and h20 i wasnt able to perpetually produce fruits as damage to the pinning platform and in the end acidification
This line of thought that Mustang and Bodhi were roaming into, for me brings to mind the possibility of finding a buffering agent- preferably a weak buffer that could be added to the sub. when making the recipe to resist the fated drop in pH from accumulating NH4+.
this!!
its been the forefront of my studies for so long, glad you see it too
I've never bothered to pay attention to the starting pH of my substrates after hydration-without thinking about it too much I wonder if the addition of a bit of CaCO3 wouldn't be amiss.
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
|
mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
|
|
its not so much the starting ph but the ph change over time. starting with a sub on the alkaline side surely bys time but is not a complete answer.
plenty room to experiment tho as its a little touched subject in mycology
--------------------
|
mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 792
|
Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3]
#25522950 - 10/08/18 08:07 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Yes, for me after 2 ->3 flushes I dont really care any more, but just as an exercise it might be fun if some buffer candidates could be found. Stuff to think on.
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
|
R.I.P.Zappa
Myco Melyco


Registered: 03/30/18
Posts: 1,212
Loc: In Between Space and Time
|
Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3]
#25522980 - 10/08/18 08:18 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Since we are on the longevity of subs It has got me thinking.
So when a sub starts to soften up, with the exclusion of trich or water logging it, could that be attributed to a high acidity?
Noticed the more flushes a sub goes through the more crumbly it gets over time.
-------------------- -The heaviest thing one will ever carry is a thought-
-"Like a Blind man In an orgy you gotta feel things out.".-
-When we agree about our hallucinations, we call it βreality".-
-If you defy authority because your told to, that's no better than blindly trusting authority.-
psychonautwiki.org
How it should & shouldn't look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE
BOD's Easy AF OAT prep tek.
Principles of mushroom growing for beginners
|
Kizzle
Misanthrope


Registered: 08/30/11
Posts: 9,870
Last seen: 2 months, 8 days
|
|
Quote:
mary fairchild said: Thanks Y'all, & Hi ET!
From the abstract of the article (thank you Shrooms)- looks like A. bisporus uses lignin as a food source but is it a major food source?, cuz if so- with lignin at up to 32% in coir it sort of muddies the water in believing that coir is only a minor nute source for shrooms, regardless i'll take it that coir is a very minor food source for cubes. Surprising that carbs were only slightly consumed.
Just wanted some clarification on cubes.
Im doing a comparison experiment hpoo vs coir as the main substrate component in the culture of Panaeolus. It's known that Pans could be fruited from a coir based sub. as well as a poo based sub. I think that poo is a far superior sub component than coir; also that poo may be the major nute source, even that Pans can be grown without any grains. Have some experiments lined up.
It'd more accurate to say it uses lignocellulose as a food source. When the lignin gets degraded the cellulose and hemicelluloses become available for digestion. I don't think it actually derives any energy from breaking down the lignin but other components can be converted into sugars. The reason high amounts of lignin are good is because is makes it selective to the mushroooms. Degrading things with high lignin content is their specialty and lets them outcompete other organisms. In the case coir the lignin content is so high Trichoderma is about the only real competitor, although other molds may grow weakly on it and will try to compete for the spawn.
--------------------
|
Claybirdd
Widespread Panic


Registered: 07/23/18
Posts: 86
Loc: On tour
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
|
Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Kizzle]
#25523239 - 10/08/18 10:25 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
From what I understand, with gypsum the sulfur which is acidic ofsets the alkalinity of the calcium therefore it's a zero sum buffer. I have heard of good results using pickling lime in substrate water at a ratio of 1 teaspoon per gallon. I will be trying this on my next batch of tubs. With my coir/horse poo subs I get 3 flushes before acidity shuts it down. I aim to get my ph to around 8.5 when preparing my subs.
Edited by Claybirdd (10/08/18 10:25 PM)
|
bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,915
Loc: Milky way
|
Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3]
#25523658 - 10/09/18 05:19 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
mustangbob3 said: bodhi...
concidering with current teks we are most likely pushing the limit of what is possible to produce over two flushes, what would u advise other to look into regarding improving teks?
to me the only improvement can come from: h20 supply nute supply and usage more flushes before done
what would you look at to improve on current teks?
its not a trick question im genuinely interested in what you consider the frontier of the hobby and how we can all move forward
Genetic modifications. Kind of joking kind of not. And always trying to get the most out of flush one, and flush two
|
trip_hazard
Lost in thunk



Registered: 08/29/18
Posts: 166
Loc: The happiest place on ear...
Last seen: 11 months, 17 days
|
Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3]
#25523757 - 10/09/18 06:48 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
mustangbob3 said:
Quote:
mushboy said: Anyone dunk with gypsum soaked water?
(Blind guess)
Edit: took me too long to read the thread.
tbh lime bathed coir isnt enough to buffer really so its not about a one time addition, u need to add it along with any h20 to keep adding it and keep bringing down the ph, this is troublesome thats why nature is the key, in nature its bacteria that solve the problem and then plants by using the by products of the bacteria.
Any thoughts on bottom-watering/misting with gypsum water? From a very layperson view, starting after (during?) the second flush may help balance the pH.
|
Caps McGee
Grandaddy Smurfshack



Registered: 10/28/17
Posts: 14,357
Loc: ally known as ...
|
Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: trip_hazard]
#25523811 - 10/09/18 07:40 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
I think maybe lime bathing would be more efficient, and perhaps using lime in mist water as well (over time)
|
Spore-hunter
lost and found



Registered: 01/05/18
Posts: 207
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
|
Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Caps McGee]
#25523819 - 10/09/18 07:45 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
The nutrition is from the grains, that why I prefer a higher grain to sub ratio.
--------------------
 
"When the AC is running full blast & it's still fucking hot - it's time to shut the window"
- nobody
|
bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,915
Loc: Milky way
|
Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Caps McGee]
#25523821 - 10/09/18 07:46 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
I think fancy ph adjusting mist gets into the extremely diminished returns area. Do all this to make sure your 5th flush is good.
|
Caps McGee
Grandaddy Smurfshack



Registered: 10/28/17
Posts: 14,357
Loc: ally known as ...
|
Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: bodhisatta]
#25523829 - 10/09/18 07:49 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
If you were focused on the longevity of only one tub as suggested... most cultivators are not, and have issue not having enough tubs lol
|
mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
|
Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Caps McGee]
#25523845 - 10/09/18 08:00 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
if ur going go thru the effort of messing with ph its only going be a novelty and a little side project for kicks, for production its always going make more sense to just spawn new tubs.
--------------------
|
Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
|
Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3] 1
#25523913 - 10/09/18 09:00 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
|
trip_hazard
Lost in thunk



Registered: 08/29/18
Posts: 166
Loc: The happiest place on ear...
Last seen: 11 months, 17 days
|
Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: bodhisatta] 1
#25524016 - 10/09/18 10:06 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
bodhisatta said: I think fancy ph adjusting mist gets into the extremely diminished returns area. Do all this to make sure your 5th flush is good. 
Meh - just thinking if I'm going to water and mist anyway, why not? I'll do a side-by-side in a couple weeks and see how it goes.
optimization.Quote:
mustangbob3 said: if ur going go thru the effort of messing with ph its only going be a novelty and a little side project for kicks, for production its always going make more sense to just spawn new tubs.
I'm 100% in it for the kicks
Any data on the changes to pH over time? I've got a cheapo tester but I'd like to compare to known results to make sure I'm against a similar set.
|
|