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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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no probs glad if i helped and sorry to go on..
thank u for a nice thread, i enjoy these kinds of topics
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,915
Loc: Milky way
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Here is my take. Grains are obviously a nutrient source. i get half ounce dried fruits on the 4th+ flush sometimes a 6th flush will even put out a couple half oz monsters. so if there is still enough energy 4-6 flushes in to put out a couple of zips dry. Either one of two things is what I can logically deduce from that. Either we come no where near effectively using the energy/nutrients in spawn before the grow goes south and we have a huge over abundance of nutrition. Or the coir is nutritional.
Either way even being my scientifically orientated questioning self I don't worry about which one is the case. I would like to know but I don't think we could really find out without doing genetic knockout studies what would take years and thousands of trials to do empirically.
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: bodhisatta] 1
#25522576 - 10/08/18 05:18 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: Here is my take. Grains are obviously a nutrient source. i get half ounce dried fruits on the 4th+ flush sometimes a 6th flush will even put out a couple half oz monsters. so if there is still enough energy 4-6 flushes in to put out a couple of zips dry. Either one of two things is what I can logically deduce from that. Either we come no where near effectively using the energy/nutrients in spawn before the grow goes south and we have a huge over abundance of nutrition. Or the coir is nutritional.
Either way even being my scientifically orientated questioning self I don't worry about which one is the case. I would like to know but I don't think we could really find out without doing genetic knockout studies what would take years and thousands of trials to do empirically.
my point exactly, we have far more nutes in the spawn than needed BUT helps us with faster colonisation ect reducing risk and over time we gain nute from the coir.
i think of grains as a big mac and coir as a slow release energy.
either way what stops our fruiting after x flushes is NOT lack of nutes its purely from acidification
really the turning point would be to control ph and h20 to give the time for us to make the most of the potential flushes but its easier to make a new tub with fresh spawn for production reasons, but if u only rock one tub a year i can see how stretching it out too eek the most out would be valuable and certainly possible.
for few years i have researched bacteria and adding it too subs to create a symbiosis to allow the ammonia to be stabilized in the sub and prevent acidification, bodhi u might remmber my hydroponic mushrooms , i used rock wool block and injected it with lc then fruited using a ceramic watering spike feeding brewing wort, this was successful as it only fed what the mushrooms could draw by osmotic pressure and used the active transport mechanisms of fungi as the power source, the myc colonised the ceramic pores like u see on terracotta pots for plants and allowed the myc to draw nuterient as its own rate never under fed or over fed, but i never developed a better nute medium, this acidification was the downfall of my project in the end.
now and then i go back and play but still trying to find the perfect nirtogen fixing baceteria that will cohabit with our cubes
with unlimited nute and h20 i wasnt able to perpetually produce fruits as damage to the pinning platform and in the end acidification
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Edited by mustangbob3 (10/08/18 05:42 PM)
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,915
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3] 2
#25522641 - 10/08/18 05:40 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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In the yeast sciences behind beer ive read there's been successful fermentations using brewing wort that's carefully dosed with ammonium hydroxide. Which supplies nitrogen for growth as well as brings the pH back into a range.
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: bodhisatta]
#25522653 - 10/08/18 05:43 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: In the yeast sciences behind beer ive read there's been successful fermentations using brewing wort that's carefully dosed with ammonium hydroxide. Which supplies nitrogen for growth as well as brings the pH back into a range.
amazing thanks for that!
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,915
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3] 2
#25522666 - 10/08/18 05:50 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Drinking a product made with ammonium hydroxide sounds pretty terrible despite ammonium and hydroxide ions already being a normal. Just the addition of something so caustic sounds bad. I think it was done in experiments dealing with attenuation% to get better ethanol yeilds. I doubt anyone besides unsuspecting scientist's co workers had to try any though. Miller was owned by Phillip Morris and did a shitload of research back in the 70s. Stuff that got used in other industries with Miller pattents. Fuel ethanol, weed extracts, keeping things sanitary in space, keeping food spoilage free in space, keeping shelf life stability for taste and appearance last longer (in space). Etc...
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: bodhisatta]
#25522709 - 10/08/18 06:10 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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bodhi...
concidering with current teks we are most likely pushing the limit of what is possible to produce over two flushes, what would u advise other to look into regarding improving teks?
to me the only improvement can come from: h20 supply nute supply and usage more flushes before done
what would you look at to improve on current teks?
its not a trick question im genuinely interested in what you consider the frontier of the hobby and how we can all move forward
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Caps McGee
Grandaddy Smurfshack



Registered: 10/28/17
Posts: 14,357
Loc: ally known as ...
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3]
#25522717 - 10/08/18 06:14 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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I've seen decent 6th and 7th flushes with clean spawn, 1:1 feild capacity coir only
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Caps McGee]
#25522726 - 10/08/18 06:18 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Caps McGee said: I've seen decent 6th and 7th flushes with clean spawn, 1:1 feild capacity coir only
and thats perfect proof that after 2 we not hardly touched the nutes, and thats the point the deminishing returns are not for lack of nutes but from build up of by products that hamper fruiting.
with current teks we can only go as far as that or face deminishing returns because of ph rather than used up nutes
going by nutes alone we should be able to pull 4 or more canopies a tub easy.
but acidification and damage to the pinning platform is the limiting factor
most of us do two flushes and call it done but in reality we not doing well at that and are wasting lots potential, two canopies is not cutting it in reality, the potential is much greater.
now how to unlock that potential and its NOT more nutes
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Edited by mustangbob3 (10/08/18 06:24 PM)
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Caps McGee
Grandaddy Smurfshack



Registered: 10/28/17
Posts: 14,357
Loc: ally known as ...
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3] 1
#25522788 - 10/08/18 06:51 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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It's more time: IME, each subsequent flush after 2nd takes longer and longer, and produces less and less per, I guess the idea behind 2 and toss is time efficiency vs cost of resources, more sense (for someone with time constraints)to get the 2 fastest and most efficient flushes done, and replace it with a new substrate that will fall right in line... I don't distribute (not a huge market here, I can't give them away lol) and have a bunch, so I fruit them til the wheels fall off
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Asura
Cyantist


Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 5,243
Loc: Right Here
Last seen: 17 hours, 3 minutes
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Caps McGee]
#25522793 - 10/08/18 06:53 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Caps McGee said: It's more time: IME, each subsequent flush after 2nd takes longer and longer, and produces less and less per, I guess the idea behind 2 and toss is time efficiency vs cost of resources, more sense (for someone with time constraints)to get the 2 fastest and most efficient flushes done, and replace it with a new substrate that will fall right in line
Chucking everything after 2nd flush to an outdoor bed is what I've been doing. I usually get some really big fruits from those outdoor flushes...but not many.
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Caps McGee
Grandaddy Smurfshack



Registered: 10/28/17
Posts: 14,357
Loc: ally known as ...
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Asura]
#25522796 - 10/08/18 06:54 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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I do like the outdoor frootz!
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Caps McGee]
#25522799 - 10/08/18 06:55 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Caps McGee said: It's more time: IME, each subsequent flush after 2nd takes longer and longer, and produces less and less per, I guess the idea behind 2 and toss is time efficiency vs cost of resources, more sense (for someone with time constraints)to get the 2 fastest and most efficient flushes done, and replace it with a new substrate that will fall right in line
yes this mimics what i said earlier, when u weigh up the work + time and then fruits out a fresh tub spawned with a new sub is always going to win on a timed basis and for production numbers will always be the best route, my hypothetical scenario was aimed at a person 'rocking one tub a year and wanting get them most from it' and under these constraints how to get them most from the one sub
but in essense we on the same page
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Caps McGee
Grandaddy Smurfshack



Registered: 10/28/17
Posts: 14,357
Loc: ally known as ...
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3]
#25522808 - 10/08/18 06:59 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Just keep it going... be meticulous with spawn generation, and give it what it needs... I've had one sit and do nothing for 5-6 days... didn't green, so I kept an eye on it... came home to a few pins, and 5 days later pulled a dry half oz... (shoebox, 4th flush)
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Caps McGee
Grandaddy Smurfshack



Registered: 10/28/17
Posts: 14,357
Loc: ally known as ...
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Caps McGee]
#25522810 - 10/08/18 07:00 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think the culture tires out to be honest
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Caps McGee]
#25522825 - 10/08/18 07:06 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Caps McGee said: Just keep it going... be meticulous with spawn generation, and give it what it needs... I've had one sit and do nothing for 5-6 days... didn't green, so I kept an eye on it... came home to a few pins, and 5 days later pulled a dry half oz... (shoebox, 4th flush)
i have kept them going and the law of deminishing returns always creeps in, i have had countless tubs go the full way until they wont put no more out, no contam or anything just stopped, i have even left that sub about for few weeks after just to see and still no contam, if ur spawn clean u wont get contams , but u will ALWAYs see the law of deminishing returns long before nutes run out.
Quote:
I think the culture tires out to be honest 
senesence dont happen in the space of one grow and the viability of a culture last years and years, in our subs the cell division is small just like our tubs compared to nature, cell division cant weaken a culture to the point it wont fruit in the space of one tub of a grow, thats not how it works.
cell replication over time create errors in the genetic code or faults, this is senescence, eventually the damage from replication is that wide spread the genome dont represnt the same as it used too, and affects the ability to replicate healthy cells. this is aging and senescence.
1 grow is never going degrade dna to the point it cant do its job unless ur expecting the cells to rep,icate to cover a football field.
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mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 792
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3] 1
#25522829 - 10/08/18 07:07 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
mustangbob3 said:
Quote:
bodhisatta said: Here is my take. Grains are obviously a nutrient source. i get half ounce dried fruits on the 4th+ flush sometimes a 6th flush will even put out a couple half oz monsters. so if there is still enough energy 4-6 flushes in to put out a couple of zips dry. Either one of two things is what I can logically deduce from that. Either we come no where near effectively using the energy/nutrients in spawn before the grow goes south and we have a huge over abundance of nutrition. Or the coir is nutritional.
Either way even being my scientifically orientated questioning self I don't worry about which one is the case. I would like to know but I don't think we could really find out without doing genetic knockout studies what would take years and thousands of trials to do empirically.
my point exactly, we have far more nutes in the spawn than needed BUT helps us with faster colonisation ect reducing risk and over time we gain nute from the coir.
i think of grains as a big mac and coir as a slow release energy.
either way what stops our fruiting after x flushes is NOT lack of nutes its purely from acidification
really the turning point would be to control ph and h20 to give the time for us to make the most of the potential flushes but its easier to make a new tub with fresh spawn for production reasons, but if u only rock one tub a year i can see how stretching it out too eek the most out would be valuable and certainly possible.
for few years i have researched bacteria and adding it too subs to create a symbiosis to allow the ammonia to be stabilized in the sub and prevent acidification, bodhi u might remmber my hydroponic mushrooms , i used rock wool block and injected it with lc then fruited using a ceramic watering spike feeding brewing wort, this was successful as it only fed what the mushrooms could draw by osmotic pressure and used the active transport mechanisms of fungi as the power source, the myc colonised the ceramic pores like u see on terracotta pots for plants and allowed the myc to draw nuterient as its own rate never under fed or over fed, but i never developed a better nute medium, this acidification was the downfall of my project in the end.
now and then i go back and play but still trying to find the perfect nirtogen fixing baceteria that will cohabit with our cubes
with unlimited nute and h20 i wasnt able to perpetually produce fruits as damage to the pinning platform and in the end acidification
This line of thought that Mustang and Bodhi were roaming into, for me brings to mind the possibility of finding a buffering agent- preferably a weak buffer that could be added to the sub. when making the recipe to resist the fated drop in pH from accumulating NH4+.
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
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Caps McGee
Grandaddy Smurfshack



Registered: 10/28/17
Posts: 14,357
Loc: ally known as ...
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3]
#25522836 - 10/08/18 07:10 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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I mean from fruiting... not senescence persay (I don't guess) but like actually tired lol... idk... maybe it's pH?
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Caps McGee
Grandaddy Smurfshack



Registered: 10/28/17
Posts: 14,357
Loc: ally known as ...
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Caps McGee]
#25522837 - 10/08/18 07:11 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Lol
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Quote:
mary fairchild said:
Quote:
mustangbob3 said:
Quote:
bodhisatta said: Here is my take. Grains are obviously a nutrient source. i get half ounce dried fruits on the 4th+ flush sometimes a 6th flush will even put out a couple half oz monsters. so if there is still enough energy 4-6 flushes in to put out a couple of zips dry. Either one of two things is what I can logically deduce from that. Either we come no where near effectively using the energy/nutrients in spawn before the grow goes south and we have a huge over abundance of nutrition. Or the coir is nutritional.
Either way even being my scientifically orientated questioning self I don't worry about which one is the case. I would like to know but I don't think we could really find out without doing genetic knockout studies what would take years and thousands of trials to do empirically.
my point exactly, we have far more nutes in the spawn than needed BUT helps us with faster colonisation ect reducing risk and over time we gain nute from the coir.
i think of grains as a big mac and coir as a slow release energy.
either way what stops our fruiting after x flushes is NOT lack of nutes its purely from acidification
really the turning point would be to control ph and h20 to give the time for us to make the most of the potential flushes but its easier to make a new tub with fresh spawn for production reasons, but if u only rock one tub a year i can see how stretching it out too eek the most out would be valuable and certainly possible.
for few years i have researched bacteria and adding it too subs to create a symbiosis to allow the ammonia to be stabilized in the sub and prevent acidification, bodhi u might remmber my hydroponic mushrooms , i used rock wool block and injected it with lc then fruited using a ceramic watering spike feeding brewing wort, this was successful as it only fed what the mushrooms could draw by osmotic pressure and used the active transport mechanisms of fungi as the power source, the myc colonised the ceramic pores like u see on terracotta pots for plants and allowed the myc to draw nuterient as its own rate never under fed or over fed, but i never developed a better nute medium, this acidification was the downfall of my project in the end.
now and then i go back and play but still trying to find the perfect nirtogen fixing baceteria that will cohabit with our cubes
with unlimited nute and h20 i wasnt able to perpetually produce fruits as damage to the pinning platform and in the end acidification
This line of thought that Mustang and Bodhi were roaming into, for me brings to mind the possibility of finding a buffering agent- preferably a weak buffer that could be added to the sub. when making the recipe to resist the fated drop in pH from accumulating NH4+.
this!!
its been the forefront of my studies for so long, glad you see it too
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