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mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 792
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Coir as a nutrient source
#25521902 - 10/08/18 01:00 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Here's a simple question,
Has it been PROVEN that coco coir provides ANY nutritional value as a substrate component for cubensis culture? Is there even strong evidence to the above?
In other words, is coir just a media to hold the grain, flour, bran etc. that are used as food sources?
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
Edited by mary fairchild (10/08/18 02:36 PM)
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gizmodo
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I would say that fruit growing out of coir seems to prove it provides a food source.
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Shroomspective
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: gizmodo]
#25521933 - 10/08/18 01:13 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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The mushrooms are growing out of the grain based food source, coir is inert as a substance and holds no nutritional value. That's why its good as a substrate that retains water for the mycelium to use during growth and fruiting
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van hatton
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: gizmodo]
#25521935 - 10/08/18 01:14 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Coir is more used for its ability. To retain water and also doesnt germinate mold spores very well.
While i think ive read theres some nutes its very very little.
Living mycelium loves coir. Mold or mushrooms
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elasticaltiger
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: van hatton]
#25521982 - 10/08/18 01:42 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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RR said a couple times that coir does provide nutrients. Lignen content of coir has been measured as high as 32%. Not sure how much cubensis depend on lignen for a food source. My understanding has always been that grains provide probably 95 percent of the nutrion while coir provides water and some lignen.
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Shroomspective
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mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
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Thanks Y'all, & Hi ET!
From the abstract of the article (thank you Shrooms)- looks like A. bisporus uses lignin as a food source but is it a major food source?, cuz if so- with lignin at up to 32% in coir it sort of muddies the water in believing that coir is only a minor nute source for shrooms, regardless i'll take it that coir is a very minor food source for cubes. Surprising that carbs were only slightly consumed.
Just wanted some clarification on cubes.
Im doing a comparison experiment hpoo vs coir as the main substrate component in the culture of Panaeolus. It's known that Pans could be fruited from a coir based sub. as well as a poo based sub. I think that poo is a far superior sub component than coir; also that poo may be the major nute source, even that Pans can be grown without any grains. Have some experiments lined up.
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
Edited by mary fairchild (10/08/18 03:02 PM)
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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the lignin and hemi cellulose is perfect food for fungi and as long as sufficient nitrogen and manganese(cubensis can make manganese peroxidase for exactly this reason) cubensis has no problem breaking down coir as a food source. the only draw back is the timeframe we have in our grows and the way we use coir dosent give the mycelium enough time to work on the coir before fruiting stalls because of ph issues. as mycelium digest the substrate a by product is the conjugate acid ammonia nh4, this alters ph and stalls fruiting long before nutrients run out, this happens as an esential part of the nitrogen and carbon cycle are missing.... bacteria that break down nh4 ammonia ready to be uptaken by plants, so ph balance is the deciding factor.
with a little effort you can get around the time frame constraint but is more work and as we only really go 2 then done isnt worth it in my opinion, unless say u want to reduce ur spawn and increase BE then improving the digestibility of coir is a winner
lycing coir ( repeated freeze and thawing) and/or cooking coir makes it even easier for the mycelium to work on,as does a lime bath.( lignin is tough but breaks down in an alkaline enviroment)
the only thing off with coir is the carbon to nitrogen ratio of coir( 100:1) but when combined with grain spawn brings it into perfect parameters
edit:
Quote:
Surprising that carbs were only slightly consumed.
btw hemicellulose is the carbs for cubensis, they use nitrogen to break it down into simple sugars that is used to create atp at the cells
coir also contains small amounts of:- Nitrogen Phosphorous Calcium Magnesium Sulphur Copper Zinc Manganese Molybdenum Boron Iron
and more than usable amount of potassium.
think of it like a supplement and combined with whole oats you get a good amount of bran that is high in manganese to which is very useful to cubensis to create manganese peroxidase and activly break the bonds of the hemi cellulose
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Edited by mustangbob3 (10/08/18 03:32 PM)
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Shroomspective
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3]
#25522278 - 10/08/18 03:38 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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This is great info
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Shroomspective
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So what about the age old Gypsum (calcium sulfate dihydrate) question? Does this have any advantage for mycelium, From what I've seen there may be a benefit on the calcium side
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Quote:
Shroomspective said: So what about the age old Gypsum (calcium sulfate dihydrate) question? Does this have any advantage for mycelium, From what I've seen there may be a benefit on the calcium side
for calcium yes but our subs are not really lacking in calcium anyhow. years ago people thought it was a ph buffer and would prolong the inevitable acidification of the sub but in reality gypsum is very poor at touching ph
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Shroomspective
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3]
#25522304 - 10/08/18 03:45 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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That makes a lot of sense So the conclusion is there is no benefit adding it to any grow? Are there any other readily available PH buffers that would improve acidification or is it still not worth the added effort for 2 flushes?
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Quote:
Shroomspective said: That makes a lot of sense So the conclusion is there is no benefit adding it to any grow? Are there any other readily available PH buffers that would improve acidification or is it still not worth the added effort for 2 flushes?

u got it, if makes u feel better and feel ur getting a benefit from it go ahead, maybe the fruits might accumilate extra calcium and provide u with a benefit but the fungus i dont feel it does.
and right on again why play with ph when its two and done and we get canopies at that so how can u physically gain more fruits? the sub can only support so much fruits and i feel we are reaching that limit as it is and a little proof of that is when u have a killer pinset the sub struggles to support them all and lots dont mature or u get lots but smaller fruits. the weight out changes little really, simply put we only have so much surface to pin from and only so many the sub can support so i really think the current teks are reaching the upper limits of what is possible.
only improvemnet could be stretching the flushes out more but its easier just to make more tubs to replace old ones rather than leave them flushing imo weigh up cost and time and after two flush ur better off with a new tub and ditch the old one
if u are determined to go that route you would need find away of using up the nh4 ( ie a bacteria) and then also efficiently providing h20 to support the fruits. maybe possible but again is it worth it, is it not easier to spawn some more jars to fresh sub.
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Caps McGee
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3]
#25522331 - 10/08/18 03:55 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Water retention basically...
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Shroomspective
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3]
#25522333 - 10/08/18 03:55 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Awesome info, thanks for the detailed explanations
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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no problem, was just a breif edited summary for brevity but will give u lots to leap off from if u was so inclined 
but would prob lead u down into a mental cul de sac
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Edited by mustangbob3 (10/08/18 04:12 PM)
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Wing
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Coir has nutrients or mycelium wouldn't colonize it well. It isn't super nutritious or it would contaminate easier and probably be colonized slower since mycelium has less need to expand for food. It holds water well.
I think the thousands of successful grows on coir just on this site alone is proof enough
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Caps McGee
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Wing]
#25522353 - 10/08/18 04:03 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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It has a few nutrients, but the grain contains more than the mycelium will consume throughout the life of the substrate, and the nutrients in the coir are Nowhere near as readily available as already colonized/cooked grain... it's main contribution is holding water. So in short, the answer is "yes, but it's not what we use it for " lol
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: Caps McGee] 1
#25522424 - 10/08/18 04:29 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Im doing a comparison experiment hpoo vs coir as the main substrate component in the culture of Panaeolus. It's known that Pans could be fruited from a coir based sub. as well as a poo based sub. I think that poo is a far superior sub component than coir; also that poo may be the major nute source, even that Pans can be grown without any grains. Have some experiments lined up
hpoo and straw both provide plenty even with really low spawn ratios, at the cost on more time and more risk of a contam taking hold cos the said time.
just look at edible grows u can lower the spawn ratio to tiny amounts compared to us and still pull weight.
we use high spawn ratios mainly for speed, for quicker grows and to out compete contams.
no-one ever said its purely for nutrition as that would be clearly false.( just look at how much unused nutes are left in the grain of a spent sub, we are over egging it but for good reason)
more spawn equals faster returns and less risk and give the fungi an easy meal but it the grains are reduced in half you can still pull the same weight out of a tub.
test with an isolate only diff is time, the results are pretty much the same all other parameters the same, again the sub can only support so many fruits and it certainly dont need all that grain to achieve its upper limit.
however keep using lots spawn as its one less risk and faster returns.
i havent tested but by the lignin content of coir even with low spawn ratios i would imagine good results, albeit slower, IF enough nitrogen is included in the sub.
if myc can use hemicellulose in hpoo and straw as a primary nutrient source it can coir i would imagine
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mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 792
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Re: Coir as a nutrient source [Re: mustangbob3]
#25522550 - 10/08/18 05:10 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Glad I came back to this tread, thanks much for this in depth commentary Mustang.
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
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