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Invisiblepezhvak
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Using Wheat to spawn (HELP)
    #25521518 - 10/08/18 09:45 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

hi guys, i'm confused, the first time i tried to grow shrooms i was successful, i used BRF Cakes with coir/verm bulk substrate and it worked, didn't fruit as much as i expected but at least it WORKED :dancer:

the second time i used some kind of bird seed, i really tried to find WBS but no luck, where i live they call everything simply bird seed :facepalm3: anyways, i brought one looked like the images i could find as WBS and i soaked it for 30 hours ( i know that was too much because it smelled like trash ) then pressure cooked it for 90minutes and finally introduced it to my GT spores. aaaaand it actually grew inside the jars but when i opened them all of them was infected. i removed the infected parts and mixed them with my bulk substrate ( i know it was stupid but i was really desperate) it grew on the bulk substrate but never fruited. (as expected huh? or idk fact check if they're infected, they could never fruit right?)

my third attempt, i used Wheat grain, this time i soaked it for 24 hours, then rinsed it well (the last time i didn't rinse them idk why and that smelled not good), pressure cooked it inside the jars for 90minutes, all of them was fine until i opened the jars and again most of them was infected  :begger: i really can't understand why, and to be clear, i am really really careful when i'm inoculating (i built my own glove box), i sterilize everything! EVERYTHING, i was a freak when i just started, researched for a month, i flame sterilize my needle between each hole of my jars, figure..

is it because of my grains? does it make a different if i use BRF or WBS or any other TEK?
what do you suggest? i'm about to prepare my next batch, i'm thinking about BRF again, because it worked considering that was my first attempt!

any advice is VERY VERY much appreciated!  :bow2:


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OfflineCody2C
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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: pezhvak]
    #25521528 - 10/08/18 09:48 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Are you simmering and drying out your grains before PCing them?

I take grain prep very seriously and do so over roughly three days. Rinse until clear. Soak overnight 12-18 hours usually. I rinse again in the morning until clear. Then I simmer my wbs using Frank's recommendation by removing my wbs from heat the moment it begins to boil and sift out the water. I lay the wbs out on a window screen/ 2x4 build. I flip the grains around every 5 minutes for 30 minutes or until dry and then load my jars 2/3 full if im going to inoculate with a ms syringe or just 1/2 way if I intend to do a G2G transfer. I inoculate/ transfer the following morning.


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Edited by Cody2C (10/08/18 10:03 AM)

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Invisiblepezhvak
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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: Cody2C]
    #25521538 - 10/08/18 09:53 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

yes, not that much dry, but i poured some on tissue paper and see if it leaves water mark after 10seconds or so, i read about it somewhere i don't remember where


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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: pezhvak]
    #25521547 - 10/08/18 10:00 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Do you have any pictures of your contaminated jars? Pictures usually help to identify the problem.


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If you can improve everyday, today is the best you've ever been and the worst you'll ever be.

Edited by Cody2C (10/08/18 10:00 AM)

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Invisiblepezhvak
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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: Cody2C]
    #25521552 - 10/08/18 10:03 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

:frown: no i was so upset i just removed them quickly and tried to save the rest


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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: pezhvak]
    #25521559 - 10/08/18 10:08 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Also, opening contaminated jars indoors is a bad idea as mold spores can spread. I dont have issues with jars and I never really have. Are you flame sterilizing the needle when inoculating?


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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: Cody2C]
    #25521584 - 10/08/18 10:18 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

yes, even between every jar i flame sterilize my needle as i wrote in my post.
here's my grain (wheat). and also at the left you can see my spawn, i'm not sure if i should bulked it, would it fruit? it had contams on it, i removed those parts but still.. last time it didn't work, and also they don't smell good. they have a sour smell. when i opened jars they had a very good smell, but not anymore, is it because they had too much water? is it ok to soak them for 24hours?



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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: pezhvak]
    #25521645 - 10/08/18 10:48 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

You need to dry the outside of your grains.

I just boil my wheat for like 25-30 minutes.
Then strain water a d shake the heated grains make the outside water evaporate.

If you have ever made noodles you want your grain to be just like that "Al dente"

You had success with brf because it's basically bacterial resistance for whatever reason but grains are not. I would learn agar


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If I ever give out misinformation please inform me so I can have the correct information. :cheers:

Tmethyl said:
Chuck Norris once roundhouse kicked a monotub that wasn't pinning fast enough. The force of the kick rearranged the genetics of the mushrooms, we now call them Penis Envy.

Caps McGee said:
:thumbsup:
Fun part is figuring out what works best for you

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Invisiblepezhvak
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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: van hatton]
    #25521787 - 10/08/18 11:58 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

so you don't soak it? do you pressure cook your jars?


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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: pezhvak]
    #25521875 - 10/08/18 12:45 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Of course i pressure cook thats just how i hydrate my grains. No i dont soak i only boil my grains. It lets me control the amount of hydration better in a short amount.of time.

I pc my jars for 90 mins and.my 5lb bags for 2.5 hours maybe 3 if i have time.

Properly hydrating and drying.the outside of.your grains is pretty important. Its really easy to get them too wet.

Like im making grain right now. I chose to do it today. Because the suns out so ill be using the sun to my advantage (and low humidity) to dry my grains out real well. Keep in mind this is specifically. For bags which are not as forgiving as jars with excess moisture.

:bongload:


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If I ever give out misinformation please inform me so I can have the correct information. :cheers:

Tmethyl said:
Chuck Norris once roundhouse kicked a monotub that wasn't pinning fast enough. The force of the kick rearranged the genetics of the mushrooms, we now call them Penis Envy.

Caps McGee said:
:thumbsup:
Fun part is figuring out what works best for you

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InvisibleCaps McGee
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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: van hatton]
    #25521893 - 10/08/18 12:56 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

There are thousands of contaminant spores floating around anyways, idk why people get so freaked out about it... generate spawn in a SAB with slow and steady movement in order to avoid kicking up contaminants... load the SAB and wait 10 minutes before starting your work... clean spawn and field capacity coir are really all you need to worry about: there's no avoiding contaminants on cakes, or in bulk substrate once in open air... a healthy spawn ratio  (1:1 or 1:2) will give your healthy living culture a chance to colonize the substrate before contaminant spores have a chance to germinate and grow to be an issue... chances are,  if it contaminates before second flush, it was in your spawn to start with... agar is your best friend... I've found My SAGARI  to be the fastest/safest way of getting fully colonized and CLEAN spawn

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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: van hatton]
    #25521909 - 10/08/18 01:04 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

i'm gonna do it tomorrow again, what do you think? does it worth retrying with wheat or should i just do it with BRF cake? does it really matter?


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InvisibleCaps McGee
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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: pezhvak]
    #25521922 - 10/08/18 01:09 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

I'd stick with brf... I'd imagine it a  little more resistant to contaminants...

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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: Caps McGee]
    #25521924 - 10/08/18 01:09 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

thank you for your reply, i used to see many talk about agar, the thing is i just don't understand what it does, is it gonna be used instead of spawning? and also while i have your attention, i'm really curious to know, what is the difference between BRF and other grain spawns? why people go with grains more than BRF?


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Edited by pezhvak (10/08/18 01:11 PM)

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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: pezhvak]
    #25522078 - 10/08/18 02:17 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

pezhvak said:
thank you for your reply, i used to see many talk about agar, the thing is i just don't understand what it does, is it gonna be used instead of spawning? and also while i have your attention, i'm really curious to know, what is the difference between BRF and other grain spawns? why people go with grains more than BRF?




Grains are much easier to deal with in bulk. You can do grain to grain transfers, yielding potential exponential growth. You can shake grain jars, spreading the inoculation points and drastically reducing colonization times.


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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: Cody2C]
    #25522116 - 10/08/18 02:29 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

awesome, i'm gonna try it again then, this time i'm not gonna soak it.
i'm gonna boil it as @van hatton suggested.
last question, my grains stink after 2 weeks while mycelium is growing inside jars, it seems after we boil or soak the grains they get contaminated fast. when you do grain to grain transfer isn't that dangerous since many of those grains might get contaminated in the new jar while staying for another two weeks?


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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: pezhvak]
    #25522255 - 10/08/18 03:27 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Agar is used to clean a culture by making multiple transfers of leading edge growth, and then used to inoculate with... Once I have a clean culture, I do it like this...

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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: pezhvak]
    #25522293 - 10/08/18 03:43 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

From my understanding you soak to wake up the contaminants, leaving them vulnerable to the PC. You simmer for the grains to absorb the moisture. Not vice versa. In my opinion avoiding the soak will not help you. Ive got 36 jars in rotation right now and not one of them seems less than perfect. When I G2G they fully colonize in 4 days, not two weeks. This is because of the 100 or so colonized grains that get mixed within the new jar instead of just spores that still need to germinate and grow mycelium to 20-30ish% before they can be shaken (usually 10 days). Idk why your grains start to contam after two weeks. On the bright side of G2G if you do get one grain jar to colonize correctly, its only a few days away from having 6+ more.


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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: Cody2C]
    #25522305 - 10/08/18 03:45 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Don't prep grain until you're ready to use it

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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: Caps McGee]
    #25522617 - 10/08/18 05:33 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Caps McGee said:
Don't prep grain until you're ready to use it



? Im always ready.


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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: Cody2C]
    #25522637 - 10/08/18 05:39 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

I'm saying that you shouldn't have unused sterilized grain for long periods of time: bacterial endospores not taken care of in the PC will germinate and multiply

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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: Caps McGee]
    #25522648 - 10/08/18 05:42 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

I keep mine 5 days before I consider it gone. That's only jars. Bags is like 2 days depending if I've opened the PC.


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If I ever give out misinformation please inform me so I can have the correct information. :cheers:

Tmethyl said:
Chuck Norris once roundhouse kicked a monotub that wasn't pinning fast enough. The force of the kick rearranged the genetics of the mushrooms, we now call them Penis Envy.

Caps McGee said:
:thumbsup:
Fun part is figuring out what works best for you

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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: Caps McGee]
    #25523462 - 10/09/18 01:05 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

i read your post, i need to research a lot more, simply because i don't even know how to use agar. should inject spores into it and then use the agar to spawn?


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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: Cody2C]
    #25523471 - 10/09/18 01:09 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

ok.. okay, thats.. AWESOME! 4 days for fully colonized jar!! WOW, i didn't know this! alright here's the question, how much of your colonized grain do you transfer to the new jar? and also just to be safe i don't mess it this time, can i colonize BRF cake and then transfer it to the grains? or it have to grains in order to be able to transfer them between jars?


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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: Caps McGee]
    #25523475 - 10/09/18 01:10 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

i'm confused here, what do you mean 'unused sterilized grain for long periods of time'? would you please clarify?


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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: van hatton]
    #25523476 - 10/09/18 01:11 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

what are you guys talking about :confused:


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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: pezhvak]
    #25523835 - 10/09/18 07:52 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Sterilizing and letting it sit before innoculating... I  don't prep grain until the night before I plan on dropping plates ... most certainly can use brf to inoculate grain, but would still want a clean culture from agar : A2G>G2G seems like it'd be easier

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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: Caps McGee]
    #25523846 - 10/09/18 08:00 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Sounds like your grain prep is ok, maybe soak 12 hour instead of 24 but I think that the issue is your inoculation.
Multi-spore to grain is asking for trouble.

Learn agar and isolate a culture, then inoculate your grains.
If you do BRF, simply clone an early pin to agar, make sure its clean and you're working with an isolated fruiting culture.


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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: Spore-hunter]
    #25523862 - 10/09/18 08:07 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

No need to isolate, just clean it up... I try to keep as much genetic variance in the initial MS tubs as possible... no way of knowing what you're isolating without it fruiting, or what genetics you passed up isolating before fruiting... 2 or 3 quick transfers before going to grain (clean) to have plenty of genetics displayed  in fruit, clone from several favorite  (size, phenotype, whatever) and grow those out... test, and pick from those a culture(s) to slant... furthermore, IME, isolations generally suck, and I've seen better performance from expanding original clone cultures repeatedly, rather than further isolating... to find that one isolate would be cool, but I think it's been said (RR) that only 1 in 12 true isolates are worthy

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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: Caps McGee]
    #25595606 - 11/06/18 08:47 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

i took your advice, just brought everything that i need to prepare agar. just wanted to let you know. :thumbup:


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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: Spore-hunter]
    #25595617 - 11/06/18 08:52 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

what do you mean of 'isolate a culture?' can you please explain more?


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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: pezhvak]
    #25595626 - 11/06/18 08:59 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

To isolate a culture it's easier to start with a clone and then you keep transferring until all the growth is 100% even with no sectoring. Here's a good thread on the process of starting a monoculture.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24741888/fpart/all/vc/1

If I'm not mistaken this guy started with spores so he had to do more transfers to get a monocture but you should get the point.

Edited by puff4200 (11/06/18 09:00 AM)

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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: puff4200] * 1
    #25596603 - 11/06/18 04:04 PM (6 years, 2 months ago)

I would concentrate on getting a clean culture... I like doing MS tubs as genetically variant as possible, then pick 5 fruit to clone... side by side in shoeboxes to determine a winning culture based on colonization speed, yeild, and potency

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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: Caps McGee]
    #25597653 - 11/07/18 01:59 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

alright! correct me if i'm wrong, what you guys are suggesting is after i made my agar plates i should use a drop of my spore syringe or use one of my grain spawn (anyhow) on one of them and let it grow, then take each section separately and fruit them, which ever was better i have to keep isolating..? the term clean culture confuses me, if someone could please describe more! also what is MS tube? sorry i'm new to this :crazy2:


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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: pezhvak]
    #25597858 - 11/07/18 06:23 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Like caps said, I'd focus on getting a clean culture. So either of the ways you mentioned would do that but the grain that already has mycellium to agar would be faster.

If your trying to work toward a monoculture then I would definitely start with clones like caps said. If you try to get a monoculture from multispore your going to be doing countless transfers to get a monocture. If you start with clones you'll only do a few to a handful usually. Like caps also said I would just work off a few different mushrooms and make a monocture out of each one rather than try to separate and keep every sector.

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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: puff4200]
    #25597974 - 11/07/18 07:41 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

i got that part, the thing is i don't understand 'clones' what do you mean of that?


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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: pezhvak]
    #25597992 - 11/07/18 07:54 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

When you produce mushrooms you can split it and scrap a bit of the stringy material in the middle and put it on a agar plate. That is a clone.

Edited by puff4200 (11/07/18 07:58 AM)

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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: puff4200]
    #25597999 - 11/07/18 07:57 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

aaaaalllriiight now i got it!! thank you! :thumbup:


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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: Cody2C]
    #25602333 - 11/09/18 05:48 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

it happened again, this time i took a picture, this is the contamination i talked about, as you can see after a 3-4 weeks it didn't colonize the top parts, why is that?


last time it happened i removed the contaminated parts and spawned the rest into bulk substrate, i din't expect anything to grow, after 1.5months (i leaved that bag alone) i saw lots of pins growing, i moved it to a box and they grow, almost half way, one of them grow big. is it safe to eat that?!


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Invisiblepuff4200
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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: pezhvak]
    #25602370 - 11/09/18 06:29 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Looks bacterial, just because something is bacterial dosent mean it won't grow though. The mycellium won't take hold of the seeds on the top because the bacterial already has. Notice how your mycellium is thick and creamy so much so you can't see the seeds through it? That's a very good sign of bacteria. Like I said before though you can spawn it and you may still get something.

Any mushroom you get is safe to eat for the most part (unless its slimy/ rotten)

I'd either work on your sterile procedure more or take a good look at your cultures because you could have hidden bacteria on them. If you used spores instead of a culture then that's obviously the problem.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22020260/fpart/all/vc/1

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Invisiblepezhvak
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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: puff4200]
    #25602432 - 11/09/18 07:08 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

yeah, i used spores to make my syringe, the first time it worked perfectly but i made my own spore prints that might be it! because the second syringe that i prepared was from my own print, alright, so now that i'm using agar, they will show up on my plate, and i should sample from those areas that are clean and move them to another dish until i get a clear culture is that right? is there any good tutorial for learning and recognizing different sections and how to do that the correct way?


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Invisiblepuff4200
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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: pezhvak]
    #25602449 - 11/09/18 07:18 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Spores to grain is always luck. That's why caps said just work on a clean culture. I wouldn't worry about trying to get a monoculture (transferring until there is no sectors or focusing on specific sectors). Just put the spores on agar once they start growing make a few transfers and it should be clean. Don't transfer from any part of the plate that's green or filmy looking (like the hidden bacteria in the post I sent you).

Don't worry yourself about sectors and all that until you work from a clone. You won't get sectors from multispore unless you do shit tons of transfers. How to get a monoculture was covered pretty well in that post I sent you awhile ago.

Edited by puff4200 (11/09/18 07:33 AM)

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InvisibleCaps McGee
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Re: Using Wheat to spawn (HELP) [Re: puff4200]
    #25604808 - 11/10/18 08:01 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Could also be a result from prepping grain too wet...

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