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sporecap
Shedding...

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Dehydrator vs. air drying investigation (some math involved) 8
#25503824 - 10/01/18 03:58 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hey,
I recently got myself into mushroom cultivation business and have just harvested my first flush, which turned out great, actually much better than I expected. I want to thank all the people here on the forum who have contributed to the amazing wealth of helpful information and tek's.
Since I saw questions about how to dry mushrooms properly popping up quite frequently, and I faced this task myself just now, I decided to perform an investigation of how the drying processes with a dehydrator differs from simple drying in air in terms of speed and final water content.
The setup was the following: Psylocybe cubensis of the (supposedly) variety Mexicana were grown in an 8qt monotub/shoebox using oats spawned to coco coir. This is what the first flush looked like:

Mature fruits from the first flush were harvested, cutting the stem right above the substrate. The average size was about 3inch/8cm, with an average weight of 5g. Immediately after cutting 10 fruits of different size and weight were selected and their wet weight determined, called weight at time t equal zero w(0). Six of them were put into a dehydrator, which had no temperature regulation, but is supposed to operate at 75-85C/167-185F according to the manual. The remaining four fruits were put onto a paper towel in open air in a room which temperature varied between 21-25C/70-77F during the Night/Day, with an average humidity of about 30-37% which is rather low and should be conducive to the drying process. Therefore, the conditions for open air drying can be expected to be quite favorable, while in general worse results than the ones I obtained should be expected.
After starting the drying process, the weight of every fruit as a function of time w(t) was measured every hour, with some breaks in between (nighttime,work).
Results: For all fruits a considerable and continuous loss of weight was observed, until a point where the weight would stabilize and no further change as a function of time could be recognized.
The absolute weight in grams as a function of time for all fruits is shown in this figure:
 The legend indicates which lines correspond to the different fruits: "Dehyd. 8.15g" shows the starting weight w(0)=8.15g and means that it has been dried in the dehydrator. "Air 5.09g" correspondingly means drying in open air of a fruit with w(0)=5.09~g. The axis on the left shows the weight w(t) as a function of time t in hours, indicated by the bottom axis.
One observes a very sharp drop in weight for all fruits in the dehydrator, until a constant baseline is reached. For the open air drying the weight decreases as well, but significantly slower. The shape of the curve ]w(t) mirrors the one of an exponential decay, i.e. it is of the form , where is a constant number. Mathematics aside, what this means is that the fruits are always losing a constant fraction of their weight due to evaporation of water. For example, it could be that each hour 25% of the weight is lost, therefore, in the beginning, where the fruit is heavier, the loss occurs quite rapidly, but later it slows down, because 25% of a fruit which has already lost most of its original weight is much smaller.
This can be seen very clearly in this logarithmic plot:

The plot shows exactly the same data as above, only the y-axis is now on a logarithmic scale. This means the intervals on the left axis have a different spacing and become finer at smaller values, making it easier to see the final weight. As a mathematical sidenote, every exponential function will appear as a straight line in a logarithmic plot with a negative slope. We see that this is indeed true for all curves here, except for the part where the fruit has been dried completely and the curve becomes flat. From the slope the number in can be extracted, which will give us information about the drying rate over time, i.e. how many grams of water per hour are lost, which we will do in a moment.
In this plot it appears that the slope is quite similar for all fruits in the dehydrator, independent of their starting weight. The same goes for the open air drying, where the slope is much smaller. This means that both big and small fruits lose roughly the same relative amount of water per hour. Looking closely, one can still see that the slope is a bit steeper for the lightweight fruits. Therefore, as expected large fruits will take longer to dry (likely because of a worse surface/volume ratio).
By fitting to the data we obtain an average value for a~0.7 for the dehydrator and a~0.1. Therefore, on average the drying curve for the dehydrator is , and .
Converting this value, we obtain a drying rate of about 50% in the dehydrator, compared to about 10% for open air drying, i.e. every hour the fruits loose half their weight in the dehydrator, while for open air drying they only loose one tenth of their weight per hour. Therefore, a dehydrator is about as 5 times as efficient as open air drying!
This is mirrored in the time it takes until a fruit is fully dry: In the dehydrator after 5 hours every fruit is completely dried (your mileage might vary!), while it takes between 20-40 hours in open air!
Now let's have a look at the final water content after drying. In the next figure you see the relative weight as a function of time w(t)*100/w(0) in % on a logarithmic scale. Here the different drying rates between the fruits become very evident, smaller fruits dry much faster than bigger ones.

The important point is the final relative weight: For the dehydrator it bottoms out slightly below 8%. In open air this value is almost obtained as well, but after a much longer timescale. On average it is slightly above 8%. This I attribute to the rather low humidity in the room, in general I expect open air drying to perform worse, so it might end up at 10% or even higher.
Interestingly, even though the final relative weight of all fruits was rather similar, only the ones from the dehydrator were cracker dry, while the open air dried ones still had a certain flexibility. But small differences at this level are actually huge in relative terms! Let us assume that the dehydrator achieves a final relative weight of 8%, while open air drying achieves 9%. While the difference seems negligible it is actually not, because this percentage is calculated from the starting weight and not the final weight ! A difference of 1% dryness for a dried fruit results in
difference in water content! What this means is that a fruit dried to 8% actually has 12.5% of its weight lost in water compared to a fruit dried to 9%. This makes a significant difference and explains why the air dried fruits where still a bit spongy compared to the ones in the dehydrator. (Not to mention that the cracker dry fruits are more potent per weight, because the active substances are not "watered down" by an additional 12.5% water content).
In conclusion: We can summarize above observations to two main results: On average, a dehydrator (in my case) is about as 5 times more time-efficient than drying in open air under favorable conditions with ~35%RH. For example, 5h in the dehydrator compared to 25h in open air were needed. In general, if humidity is higher, even longer times are expected.
Second, a dehydrator reaches a lower level of dryness which makes a significant difference in final water content (more than 10%), which makes the difference between spongy or cracker dry.
Thanks for reading up to this point. If you found it interesting, please let me know your comments! Or if you spot a mistake, or have suggestion on what to improve, please tell me as well  PS: The LaTex parser seems to be buggy? Everytime I use more than one \frac the result is garbled...
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Shroomspective
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Re: Dehydrator vs. air drying investigation (some math involved) [Re: sporecap]
#25503876 - 10/01/18 04:26 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Like the level of detail that's gone into the post...but I'm struggling to accept the results that air drying is more effective than a dehydrator. I'd have liked to have seen both compared at 24hrs, given that is the usual runtime. Also drying on paper leads to liquid leaching out, air drying shoudl be on a rack to prevent that occuring
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LadysKnight
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Re: Dehydrator vs. air drying investigation (some math involved) [Re: Shroomspective] 1
#25503911 - 10/01/18 04:42 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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"On average, a dehydrator (in my case) is about as 5 times more time-efficient than drying in open air under favorable conditions..."
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Shroomspective
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Re: Dehydrator vs. air drying investigation (some math involved) [Re: LadysKnight]
#25503939 - 10/01/18 04:51 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Aha I was reading the second point as in lower being less than
"Second, a dehydrator reaches a lower level of dryness which makes a significant difference in final water content (more than 10%), which makes the difference between spongy or cracker dry."
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LadysKnight
Hello Ladies


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Re: Dehydrator vs. air drying investigation (some math involved) [Re: Shroomspective]
#25503953 - 10/01/18 04:56 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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True. You can't put too much water in a nuclear reactor.
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Electronic_Abyss
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Re: Dehydrator vs. air drying investigation (some math involved) [Re: Shroomspective]
#25503970 - 10/01/18 05:02 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well, this answers why anything I've air dried is still suspiciously flexible despite lasting so long. Never would've the difference is so small, or that minor difference was all it needed to have such a huge effect. Good write up dude, I appreciate the graphs.
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PhantomDragonX
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Re: Dehydrator vs. air drying investigation (some math involved) [Re: Shroomspective]
#25503990 - 10/01/18 05:08 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Makes a lot of sense, as air drying especially at high humidity will take a while as evaporated water will 'linger' around whereas a dehydrator (a good one) will be moving low humidty air at a greater rate past the shroom to actively remove the evaporated water.
Also to note, no use having a dehydrator if you don't have air-tight storage afterwards, as water can rehydrate.
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Shroomspective
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Re: Dehydrator vs. air drying investigation (some math involved) [Re: PhantomDragonX]
#25504028 - 10/01/18 05:21 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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These tend to be my long term storage method, keeps for years
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Dehydrator vs. air drying investigation (some math involved) [Re: Shroomspective] 1
#25504067 - 10/01/18 05:34 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Air drying sucks. Now there's a proof.
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John1212
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Re: Dehydrator vs. air drying investigation (some math involved) [Re: sporecap]
#25583699 - 11/01/18 09:25 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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Nice detailed info!
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Dr3
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Re: Dehydrator vs. air drying investigation (some math involved) [Re: John1212]
#26192200 - 09/16/19 04:17 PM (5 years, 3 months ago) |
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" In conclusion: We can summarize above observations to two main results: On average, a dehydrator (in my case) is about as 5 times more time-efficient than drying in open air under favorable conditions with ~35%RH. For example, 5h in the dehydrator compared to 25h in open air were needed. In general, if humidity is higher, even longer times are expected."
So I tend to read in many places about relative humidity. But this is irrelevant without knowing the absolute humidity, and thus the total amount of moisture in the air. 35% RH relative to what?
Or maybe I misunderstand humidity : |
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Kizzle
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Re: Dehydrator vs. air drying investigation (some math involved) [Re: Dr3]
#26193761 - 09/17/19 11:58 AM (5 years, 3 months ago) |
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RH is what's important for drying. That and the temperature of mushrooms themselves.
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verum subsequentis
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Re: Dehydrator vs. air drying investigation (some math involved) [Re: Kizzle]
#26193793 - 09/17/19 12:12 PM (5 years, 3 months ago) |
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I suppose that's why it's called relative humidity. Check.
Thanks for all the thought and detail put into this write up. This is the type of stuff I love. That being said, all experienced growers (dryers) already knew this.... just without all the graphs and details.
The real questions are:
A: how long will each of these store without dramatic potency loss.
B: will the air "dried" fruits mold over time while being stored.
C: How much would a fan have helped the air dried fruits
D: Where would drying in the sun fall into this equation re: time to dry and potency loss.
Granted, coming to absolute truth regarding potency loss is a bit of a tricky situation as, Not all fruits are identical in potency, every consumer has a different tolerance/ natural response to the actives, and each consumer is in a completely different state each time he/ she does a potency test (different emotional/ mental state... slept more/ less than last time.... ate more/ less recently than last time.... Is in a different set and setting... bla bla bla.
Edited by verum subsequentis (09/17/19 12:12 PM)
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Stephie
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Re: Dehydrator vs. air drying investigation (some math involved) [Re: verum subsequentis]
#26193800 - 09/17/19 12:17 PM (5 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think it would also be interesting to test a hybrid method.
My grandfather for example uses a hybrid method to make jerky which starts with salt/spice assisted sun/air drying before finishing in a dehydrator.
I may have to set this one up
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StygianKnight
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Re: Dehydrator vs. air drying investigation (some math involved) [Re: verum subsequentis] 2
#26193809 - 09/17/19 12:21 PM (5 years, 3 months ago) |
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RH is how saturated the air is at its current temperature. The more saturated it is the harder it is to move water into it and when it reaches 100% saturation it dews and turns to mist/clouds/rain/dew. Warmer air has a higher holding capacity than colder air and thus heating up air can reduce its RH and cooling off air can increase its RH, where the temperature it reaches when it hits 100% RH is called its dew-point.
Since drying is pumping moisture from the shrooms into the air, the total amount of water vapor in the air is less important than how likely it is to absorb more.
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verum subsequentis
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Re: Dehydrator vs. air drying investigation (some math involved) [Re: StygianKnight]
#26193843 - 09/17/19 12:34 PM (5 years, 3 months ago) |
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very well said.
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sporecap
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Re: Dehydrator vs. air drying investigation (some math involved) [Re: verum subsequentis]
#26193881 - 09/17/19 12:59 PM (5 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
verum subsequentis said: The real questions are:
A: how long will each of these store without dramatic potency loss.
B: will the air "dried" fruits mold over time while being stored.
C: How much would a fan have helped the air dried fruits
D: Where would drying in the sun fall into this equation re: time to dry and potency loss.
These are good questions, and I am also still wondering about how potency is affected :/ The general line of thought is that the faster the better (enzymes breaking down the actives over time) and heat does not affect potency. So a dehydrator at highest setting is the way to go. But as you said it close to impossible to test this due to varying fruit potency. And without some kind of liquid/gas chromatography equipment... What I consistently observe is that air dried fruits bruise heavily while drying, while the ones in the dehydrator basically don't bruise at all. Does this mean the cells get damaged more while air drying since the fruit has time to decompose or sth like that?
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ShaperDreaming
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Re: Dehydrator vs. air drying investigation (some math involved) [Re: sporecap]
#26193886 - 09/17/19 01:05 PM (5 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
sporecap said: I am also still wondering about how potency is affected
I did some thinking on this topic lately.
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sporecap
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Re: Dehydrator vs. air drying investigation (some math involved) [Re: ShaperDreaming]
#26194031 - 09/17/19 02:35 PM (5 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
ShaperDreaming said:
Quote:
sporecap said: I am also still wondering about how potency is affected
I did some thinking on this topic lately.
Wow, thanks a lot for the link, somehow I missed that. Will go through all the papers when I have the time. But I guess there'll be a lot of conflicting information, like the guy from reddit who claimed only minor potency loss while one of the sciencedirect paper claims that "drying at an elevated temperature (60°C) leads to decomposition of 90% of psilocin." On the other hand the paper could only extract 1/3 of the amount of psilocin from fresh mushrooms compared to freeze-dried ones, which sounds contradicting but just means the extraction technique has a significant effect as well. How all of this affects the potency and bioavailability of actives in our shrooms in practice might be a whole different thing. I was thinking about splitting a large fruit symmetrically in 3 pieces (cap and stem), and consuming one part fresh, one air dried and one thrown in the dehydrator. Still this might not give any reasonable results due to different set & setting, the placebo effect, etc...  Maybe we should just shut the fuck up and enjoy without worrying too much
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Kizzle
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Re: Dehydrator vs. air drying investigation (some math involved) [Re: sporecap]
#26194612 - 09/17/19 07:34 PM (5 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
while one of the sciencedirect paper claims that "drying at an elevated temperature (60°C) leads to decomposition of 90% of psilocin."
Yeah, it's kind of useless to only measure the psilocin content. Since it's the degradation product of psilocybin, a higher psilocin content could actually reflect a higher amount of enzymatic degradation occurring to the psilocybin rather than a higher potency overall. I've actually felt the high dried mushroom me be a bit more potent if anything but it's not something I can measure with any accuracy, I just have an impression that it might be the case.
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cronicr



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Re: Dehydrator vs. air drying investigation (some math involved) [Re: Kizzle]
#26194910 - 09/18/19 12:52 AM (5 years, 3 months ago) |
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Let me fucking clear something up, you're in the mushroom growing hobby not business
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I'm tired do me a favor
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Dr3
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Re: Dehydrator vs. air drying investigation (some math involved) [Re: StygianKnight]
#26195064 - 09/18/19 05:53 AM (5 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
StygianKnight said: RH is how saturated the air is at its current temperature. The more saturated it is the harder it is to move water into it and when it reaches 100% saturation it dews and turns to mist/clouds/rain/dew. Warmer air has a higher holding capacity than colder air and thus heating up air can reduce its RH and cooling off air can increase its RH, where the temperature it reaches when it hits 100% RH is called its dew-point.
Since drying is pumping moisture from the shrooms into the air, the total amount of water vapor in the air is less important than how likely it is to absorb more.
Thanks! That really clarifies it.
Learned something useful today
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High Night Expanse
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Re: Dehydrator vs. air drying investigation (some math involved) [Re: bodhisatta]
#26195073 - 09/18/19 06:07 AM (5 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: Air drying sucks. Now there's a proof.
Yea air drying sucks. Who air dries?
#Sunlight
OP did you do this experiment outdoors in the sun or not?
Edit: Quote:
The important point is the final relative weight: For the dehydrator it bottoms out slightly below 8%. In open air this value is almost obtained as well, but after a much longer timescale. On average it is slightly above 8%. This I attribute to the rather low humidity in the room, in general I expect open air drying to perform worse, so it might end up at 10% or even higher.
Interestingly, even though the final relative weight of all fruits was rather similar, only the ones from the dehydrator were cracker dry, while the open air dried ones still had a certain flexibility.
When ever i do mine outdoors in the sun there isnt any flexibility left. your response would be nice and thanks in advance OP
Edited by High Night Expanse (09/18/19 06:11 AM)
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Ltml82
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Re: Dehydrator vs. air drying investigation (some math involved) [Re: sporecap]
#26541403 - 03/17/20 07:23 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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TY for the excellent post--I am new to this and really learned a lot. Can you share what type/brand of dehydrator you use or recommend?
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dfittlesticks
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Re: Dehydrator vs. air drying investigation (some math involved) [Re: sporecap]
#26792924 - 06/29/20 06:49 PM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Nice scientific research on drying. However, have you noticed any difference in potency between air and dehydrator?
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Fuddyduddy
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Re: Dehydrator vs. air drying investigation (some math involved) [Re: dfittlesticks]
#26792952 - 06/29/20 07:03 PM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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The humidity in my house is currently in the 5% range and Temps 78-82°F
I left some to air dry on paper towel, sone in light fan and others in dehydrator at 170°F.
The ones in the dehydrator all turned dark and more shriveled although they only took a few hours.
The air dry ones took about 24hrs to be mostly dry, 36 to snap cracker-dry. They retained their nice golden color and general shape.
My climate allows it but the visual impact of quick drying above heat is a turn-off
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jcm4620
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Re: Dehydrator vs. air drying investigation (some math involved) [Re: Fuddyduddy]
#26793685 - 06/30/20 04:07 AM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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man if u would have used the search engine u could have found literally a gazillion threads about how air drying and desiccant drying sucks balls and that a dehydrator was the best way and if u ask me the only way to go. you really could have saved yourself a lot of time and you could have made graphs and done all this typing for something useful. i appreciate the effort and all but all i ask is why bother for something as well known and absolutely already proven as this??? just makes all that effort not worth the effort🤷🏼
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jcm4620
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Re: Dehydrator vs. air drying investigation (some math involved) [Re: jcm4620]
#26793688 - 06/30/20 04:12 AM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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omg wtf i just went back to re read something and saw this thread is as older than covid. lol god i hate when old pointless threads are bumped and now im bumping it lol wtf
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Terhathum


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Re: Dehydrator vs. air drying investigation (some math involved) [Re: Shroomspective]
#27008291 - 10/28/20 12:34 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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Are the white chips at the bottom of the airtight storage container a desiccant?
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Rumpleforeskin
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Re: Dehydrator vs. air drying investigation (some math involved) [Re: Terhathum]
#27008700 - 10/28/20 03:47 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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Does anyone start with air drying and then move to a dehydrator to finish/buy time while the first round is in a dehydrator? I was thinking drying racks with a fan and a dehumidifier in the space to pull out a good amount of the moisture, and make larger fruits more manageable for a dehydrator. I have a 9 try excalibur to start, and two large hanging drying racks previously used for cannabis. Thoughts?
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Kizzle
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Re: Dehydrator vs. air drying investigation (some math involved) [Re: Rumpleforeskin]
#27011908 - 10/30/20 11:18 AM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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I'd just use the oven for whatever you can't fit in the dehydrator. Then you can do them all at once.
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Rumpleforeskin
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Re: Dehydrator vs. air drying investigation (some math involved) [Re: Kizzle]
#27011931 - 10/30/20 11:28 AM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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May I ask what the risk is of air drying prior to using a dehydrator? Thanks for the response.
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Kizzle
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Re: Dehydrator vs. air drying investigation (some math involved) [Re: Rumpleforeskin]
#27011940 - 10/30/20 11:35 AM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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There's no risk, but without the heat the rate at which they'll dry is limited.
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Rumpleforeskin
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Re: Dehydrator vs. air drying investigation (some math involved) [Re: Kizzle]
#27011960 - 10/30/20 11:46 AM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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Well, I guess it all depends on the success and timing of fruiting.... Time will tell. I'm just doing my first round. Thanks for the information.
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verum subsequentis
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Re: Dehydrator vs. air drying investigation (some math involved) [Re: Rumpleforeskin]
#27011983 - 10/30/20 12:02 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rumpleforeskin said: Does anyone start with air drying and then move to a dehydrator to finish/buy time while the first round is in a dehydrator? I was thinking drying racks with a fan and a dehumidifier in the space to pull out a good amount of the moisture, and make larger fruits more manageable for a dehydrator. I have a 9 try excalibur to start, and two large hanging drying racks previously used for cannabis. Thoughts?
I've done that plenty. Works fine. I've never noticed a potency loss from leaving them to dry on a screen with a fan for a day before throwing in the dehydro.
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