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InvisibleStipe-n CapMDiscord
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Developing genectic trait stability in spores
    #25501258 - 09/30/18 03:25 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Is it possible to isolate in such a way that future generations will produce spores with limited genetic variability and maintain the stabilized traits of the parent curlure?


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OfflineFailboat
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Re: Developing genectic trait stability in spores [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #25501261 - 09/30/18 03:26 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Yes


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InvisibleStipe-n CapMDiscord
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Re: Developing genectic trait stability in spores [Re: Failboat]
    #25501284 - 09/30/18 03:32 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Why aren't there varieties of cubensis that produce the same results of a good clone or isolate from multispore?


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InvisibleStipe-n CapMDiscord
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Re: Developing genectic trait stability in spores [Re: Failboat]
    #25501367 - 09/30/18 03:57 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

this is a great explanation by workman, however it doesn't explain why we don't have MS grows that perform like isolates. You would think that by now all MS grows would have thick even canopies with tall fat stipes, and limited overall variability.

Quote:

Workman said:
Mushrooom genetics are a little strange since a single mushroom produces spores that can then act as both parents for a new mycelium.  Essentially, you are selfing or inbreeding each time you do a multispore grow.

Now consider a wild collection of Psilocybe cubensis with a high heterozygosity.  This basically means that most or all of each pair of genes in the mushroom are different from each other.  Its the same gene location with the same basic function, but different versions.  For example, if there is a single gene for height, you might have a version that gives short mushrooms and a version that gives tall mushrooms.  If heterozygosity is high, you have one of each which may result in medium mushrooms unless one of the height genes is dominant.

Now, when you do multispore from a single mushroom you randomly get a mix of all the genes.  Sticking to our height gene example, you could get two short copies, two tall copies or one of each.  Obviously the strains with two short copies will be short and the ones with two tall copies will be tall. 

Lets say we liked the short mushrooms so we saved that one and took a spore print for later.  In this example the tall version of the height gene is lost to later generations.  There is a net loss of heterozygosity.  Over the entire genome the loss is about 50% per generation.

So mathematically we can figure out how many sequential multispore generations we need until the heterozygosity is reduced to an insignificant level and the strain is stable even from multispore.

Starting with a presumably high (~100%) heterozygosity from a wild collection.  In reality, the heterozygosity is probably lower than 100%, but its an easy number to start with.

100% wild print
50% 1st generation from wild print
25% 2nd generation from 1st generation print
12.5% 3rd generation.....
6.25% 4th generation.....
3.12% 5th generation.....
1.56% 6th generation.....
0.78% 7th generation.....

You can see that the heterozygosity drops off quickly in the first few generations and is less than 1% after the 6th generation.  This highlights the importance of choosing the best traits early on when there are more to choose from.  Attempting to isolate traits in well established strains results in only minimal improvements unless spontaneous mutations increase the heterozygosity in a positive way (rare).

In summary:

Popular classic strains in circulation have all been grown well beyond 6 generations and are relatively stable from multispore with little need for isolation.

New strains, from wild material or cross breeding between different strains of the same species, can be stabilized fairly quickly with 6 or 7 generations of sequential multispore grows.

Selection is most important early in the process and if good genes are bred out, they are gone forever.  Archiving original or early generation prints is recommended for preserving heterozygosity for later selective breeding.  Continuous isolation of a bad strain with hopes of significant improvement is futile.




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InvisibleJHOVA
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Re: Developing genectic trait stability in spores [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #25501382 - 09/30/18 04:01 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Multispore does produce consistent results in varieties. Look at LGT. Tendency to have delicate veils that cling like spider webs, clustering and color. Every famous cube has been grown well over 7 generations. :shrug:


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InvisibleStipe-n CapMDiscord
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Re: Developing genectic trait stability in spores [Re: JHOVA]
    #25501448 - 09/30/18 04:29 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, PE, LGT, AA+, RW....have been stabilized to look the way that they do, but there is still a wide range of variability when it comes to other desired traits. So to answer my own question, traits such as canopy hieght/density, stipe thinkness/density, cluster formation etc, have not been as aggressively selected for when compared to other traits.

It would be very interesting to isolate the genetics to such a degree that prints would yield the same results as an isolate, or to deviate from morphology altogether and select for traits (if present within the genetic variation) such as the ability to thrive in cooler environments or on substrates like wood.


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OfflineAsuraS
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Re: Developing genectic trait stability in spores [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #25501471 - 09/30/18 04:38 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Was just talking about this. Like JHOVA said, MS does produce consistent phenotypes.

But it also carries forward other traits as well. Some of them undesirable, like workman talks
about.

For instance, there are some pan cyans prints (that come from a single vendor) that result in
heavy overlay. This has been seen by 5 or so growers who started with those prints or used
prints from those grows. These were very established pan growers, too, I might add. The best
of the best.


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Developing genectic trait stability in spores [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #25502112 - 09/30/18 10:00 PM (5 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

p9hu7 said:
Yes, PE, LGT, AA+, RW....have been stabilized to look the way that they do, but there is still a wide range of variability when it comes to other desired traits. So to answer my own question, traits such as canopy hieght/density, stipe thinkness/density, cluster formation etc, have not been as aggressively selected for when compared to other traits.

It would be very interesting to isolate the genetics to such a degree that prints would yield the same results as an isolate, or to deviate from morphology altogether and select for traits (if present within the genetic variation) such as the ability to thrive in cooler environments or on substrates like wood.



You would probably sooner break the variety before narrowing it down to performance like a clone.


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