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Using Local ISP/What can they see? How to browse without local surveillance?
    #25490037 -

I keep reading that the shroomery only has two subpoenas, which is irrelevant taking ISPs into account
For instance, AT&T has a close relationship to the government (specifically DEA) and would/will actively sell your metadata so law enforcement could use it as a lead.  This wikipedia link doesn't mention it, but they have hired people solely for the job of aggregating/selling the information  (I'm not so sure if they sell internet browsing data to the government - a cursory google search didn't specify, but they will definitely sell the internet data from your phone)

here's the wikipedia entry

Here's an excerpt from this site:
Quote:
According to The Daily Beast, AT&T uses Project Hemisphere to generate leads that are passed onto local law enforcement for anything from tax fraud to drug dealing. Law enforcement then investigate these leads through conventional methods such as tailing, even though their entire investigation is based on a 4th amendment violation. What this has led to is court cases where the “evidence” used to convict the defendant is not available for scrutiny as one might expect in normal legal proceedings. In fact, AT&T has the US government all but perjure itself by encouraging the use parallel reconstructionism to describe how they started the investigation in the first place.



It's only speculation and there's no real answer, but am I taking on extra risk for me to be accessing this site via a local (non-AT&T) ISP?  IMO, it's quite likely a local provider, who also provides electricity, has ties to local police.

If anyone wants to pm or post networking info compatible to this site (not strictly VPNS, I'm somewhat interested in how proxies work, IPv6, etc.) it'd be appreciated.  I frequently begin reading about networking, but when reading about something specific, the info is so dense that I have to find definitions for several words and end up not being able to connect all the dots.




Questions relating to what ISPs can see (taken from this website):

1)All DNS queries can be seen by ISPs, so when browsing the shroomery for an hour, they see a list of "shroomery.org - (time accessed)?

2) Shroomery uses HTTPS, so ISPs cannot view or log those sites.  But sometimes while browsing on here, instead of a green HTTPS lock, it'll be yellow and say "parts of the site are unencrypted" - so they can only view/log the specific part of the page that's unencrypted?  Not the page containing the unencrypted info?  Here's an example

3)  Pertaining to point #3 where I am reading and getting these questions - How likely is it a typical ISP is using "web site fingerprinting"?



These are a lot of questions, but I hope they will encourage other people to take their personal information seriously and my answers will help other shroomerites in the future.

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Re: Using Local ISP/What can they see? How to browse without local surveillance? [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #25492306 -

The SSL stops the ISP from seeing what you are doing, they can only see which sites you go to.

No one cares that you are browsing shroomery.

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Re: Using Local ISP/What can they see? How to browse without local surveillance? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #25493056 -

If there's just one cop/web developer who works with a local isp in a small town, it wouldn't be hard to iterate through data, collecting information that may be helpful. 

Quote:
The SSL stops the ISP from seeing what you are doing, they can only see which sites you go to.



Can they see specific shroomery links?




Quote:
No one cares that you are browsing shroomery


If I worked with the police, I'd enjoy having this information.  No one cares that you're at taco bell, but some police departments still shell out for stingrays

Edited by Anonymous (09/27/18 10:29 PM)

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Re: Using Local ISP/What can they see? How to browse without local surveillance? [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #25495210 -

You could force HTTPS in the browser, use a SOCKS 5 proxy through SSH, and tunnel DNS through it. There's a program called privoxy you can download for free that I think will do everything you need. If you want to spring for a VPS you could set up a web proxy and route all your traffic on all your devices through it and browse public wifi more safely as well while you're at it.

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Re: Using Local ISP/What can they see? How to browse without local surveillance? [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #25507889 -

Anonymous #1 said:
Can they see specific shroomery links?



No.  Just the site is visible, the URL you are going to is encrypted.

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Re: Using Local ISP/What can they see? How to browse without local surveillance? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #25550408 -

When I browse the web I do so under the assumption that TPTB can see everything I do, that no encryption or anything I do actually works. Therefore I just use HTTPS where available and my usual ISP address.

If the NSA wanted you...they have access to the all your stuff through the discreet chips on your BIOS, or on your actual SSD / HDD, or through Minix on all Intel cpu's produced after 2012.  https://www.networkworld.com/article/3236064/servers/minix-the-most-popular-os-in-the-world-thanks-to-intel.html

Using a VPN just draws attention to you like a red IP address in a list of black ones.

I use Linux which considerably takes me off the list of low hanging fruit and that's encrypted too however that's not going to stop the NSA or equivalent.

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Re: Using Local ISP/What can they see? How to browse without local surveillance? [Re: deep_thinker]
    #25552855 -

yeah, by my concerns aren't the NSA.  My threat level is relatively low - I'm not a world-class criminal.  My concerns are local, nosy white-collar eyes and local government officials.

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Re: Using Local ISP/What can they see? How to browse without local surveillance? [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #25556122 -

Anonymous #1 said:
yeah, by my concerns aren't the NSA.  My threat level is relatively low - I'm not a world-class criminal.  My concerns are local, nosy white-collar eyes and local government officials.



Those guys aren't going to be watching your internet traffic.

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Re: Using Local ISP/What can they see? How to browse without local surveillance? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #25556745 -

I value your opinion more than a lot of other posters.  Could you elaborate and explain why you think this is unreasonable?  It's definitely not impossible and given the size of the US, it seems almost certain to be happening somewhere.

I'm not referring to some humans looking at data - but in the same way businesses and schools have blocked sites, it's possible that an ISP may have sites that are flagged and the info is aggregated.

It's well-known that national ISPs sell data to police regarding where "suspicious people" go, what websites they browse, etc.  Drawing from this fact, it's reasonable that some local ISP somewhere in the USA sells data to the local police force, especially in a smaller community where those involved in local government all know one another.  I don't believe this is very likely in a large city where ISPs typically have hundreds of thousands of customers - if they sold data, it would likely be about real criminals (e.g. at&t).  I know nothing about local ISPs in cities or how large their customer base is, so I cannot make an assessment.

I'm not touting a conspiracy theory, just drawing possibilities (e.g. a local ISP selling information to local police about a customer whose internet history is mostly about growing pot) from an established fact (e.g. at&t - selling information to state police about a potential bulk cocaine dealer).

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Re: Using Local ISP/What can they see? How to browse without local surveillance? [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #25559064 -

Anonymous #1 said:
I value your opinion more than a lot of other posters.  Could you elaborate and explain why you think this is unreasonable?  It's definitely not impossible and given the size of the US, it seems almost certain to be happening somewhere.


Local government officials wouldn't know how to watch your traffic, nor would they have access to it.  It's pretty much all encrypted these days so there wouldn't be much to watch.  Watching internet traffic is not how criminal enforcement works.



Quote:
I'm not referring to some humans looking at data - but in the same way businesses and schools have blocked sites, it's possible that an ISP may have sites that are flagged and the info is aggregated.


Nah.



Quote:
It's well-known that national ISPs sell data to police regarding where "suspicious people" go, what websites they browse, etc.



Maybe child porn people but definitely not for drugs.



Quote:
Drawing from this fact, it's reasonable that some local ISP somewhere in the USA sells data to the local police force, especially in a smaller community where those involved in local government all know one another.  I don't believe this is very likely in a large city where ISPs typically have hundreds of thousands of customers - if they sold data, it would likely be about real criminals (e.g. at&t).  I know nothing about local ISPs in cities or how large their customer base is, so I cannot make an assessment.


What would they be selling, your DNS lookups?

They really couldn't care less who is interested in pot.

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Re: Using Local ISP/What can they see? How to browse without local surveillance? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #25559527 -

Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:
It's well-known that national ISPs sell data to police regarding where "suspicious people" go, what websites they browse, etc.



Maybe child porn people but definitely not for drugs.





Yeah, drugs. In fact, drugs seem to be the focal point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemisphere_Project

A link where nytimes describes it in greater detail

and I guess pretty much everything to profit off of.  An excerpt from an article in the guardian stating they sell info to local police too:

"
Quote:
But according to internal company documents revealed Monday by the Daily Beast, Hemisphere is being sold to local police departments and used to investigate everything from murder to Medicaid fraud, costing US taxpayers millions of dollars every year even while riding roughshod over privacy concerns.



Quote:
What would they be selling, your DNS lookups?

They really couldn't care less who is interested in pot.



Regarding DNS look-ups, theoretically yes. 

Regarding pot, your state couldn't care less.  My state stripped me nude, made me squat down and cough (to determine if I was trying to smuggle drugs into their jail). After no one bailed me out, I was put into a cell for three days containing a steel toilet/sink combo, 3 inch door made of concrete, two bunk beds, the occasional roommate, and a romance novel I happened to find under a mattress to pass the time (which they took away once they had to move me to a separate pod, due to over-crowding).  I had to deal with other inmates who were fighting over my uneaten breakfast and coercing me to smuggle my leftovers to them through a toilet paper roll.  I had to wait three days until a judge found me suitable to leave on my own recognizance. 
As if that wasn't enough, I had to drive two hours to the court on my court date, wait several hours before I was told to go back home because the lab results didn't come back yet to confirm whether it was actually pot or not. Then I had drive two hours and accept a plea deal; I had to go back again for some other reason I cannot remember.  This was three days locked up + 2 hours of driving each way (3 times) + avg. of four hours sitting and waiting in court.  An over-worked public defender who couldn't give a shit about the specifics of my case (i.e. how I never consented to a search) didn't make me any less sour.  All this plus a >$1000 court fee and the knowledge that if I was arrested/convicted within the next year, I'd be in jail/prison for 6 months minimum.  This was basically half a week of Kafkaesque bureaucracy and a looming threat that if I slipped up within that year, I'd be sucked into the system within an instant.  This was all for 9 grams of sub-par pot.

So yeah, I concede that they may not care who is interested in pot, but they'd love to know who grows pot (basing this logical purely on the monetary value spent vs. gained in court fees). 

A local newspaper article detailed a mushroom cultivation arrest where the cops weighed a guy's substrate and thought it was acid and charged him with possession of a few oz of acid.  I hope this gets the point across that in this area of the US, cops would LOVE to know who is growing pot or who is growing mushrooms.  I agree that cops in your area couldn't give less of a shit.  They also probably couldn't give less of shit who has acid, mushrooms, has ounces of MDMA, etc. - child porn, murder cases, bulk dealers are prioritized.

and yes, selling my DNS lookups is completely plausible (although preventable and something I should make a priority).  I don't know the specifics of what they can see, but again, it's something I need to prioritize.

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Re: Using Local ISP/What can they see? How to browse without local surveillance? [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #25559533 -

Your local government does not have the resources or man-power to investigate your online shenanigans.. you are completely safe buddy..

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Re: Using Local ISP/What can they see? How to browse without local surveillance? [Re: Kinko]
    #25561082 -

Despite it seeming conspiracy theory-ish and far-fetched, many departments have the ability to track in real-time where you go and what draw conclusions about what you do.  Again, a government doesn't need to hire a human to flag suspicious sites visited or to do aggregate data/form statistics - they only need to hire a computer.

You could also say "your local government doesn't have the resources to compile information on you before your trial and develop scores relating to 'Risk of Recidivism,' 'Risk of Violence' and 'Risk of Failure to Appear.'" and you'd be correct in a sense - they cannot hire a guy to do it but they can purchase an algorithm/pay another company.  Link  Link Link

Read into predictive policing.

Considering many local governments buy devices that track where your phone goes, algorithms used to determine a jail sentence for offenders, and have cops lurk around specific parts of town based on algorithms (i.e. predictive policing), the idea of a local government purchasing info from a local ISP doesn't seem far-fetched.  It's legal, valuable, and likely worth the money.

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Re: Using Local ISP/What can they see? How to browse without local surveillance? [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #25574814 -

You're sounding a bit paranoid man. Relax. Nobody is coming to get you because of weed or even weed related sites. You should probably avoid posting illegal behavior online but thats kinda obvious.

Today on instagram for shits and giggles i typed in #shroomsforsale and tons of normal people had pictures of freshly cultivated fruits and their faces on their public profiles. Quite stupid to me. But hey those are the folks the police will actually go after.


--------------------
:mushroom2:Species found::mushroom2:
P. azurescens
P. cyanescens
P. semilanceata
P. pelliculosa
P. stuntzii
G. luteofolius
Pan. cinctulus

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Re: Using Local ISP/What can they see? How to browse without local surveillance? [Re: loco801]
    #25574959 -

:shrug:  Maybe so.  I read articles about this type of stuff and peoples' opinions on this type of stuff.  It's not a past-time, but I do feel like Americans' rights aren't being maintained as technology progresses.

I guess my point is that technology is shifting, and law enforcement tactics are changing too.  Today, in the context of a separate conversation, a friend mentioned that Comcast sells your DNS data, which may or may not be true (Here's a link if you're curious).  But it seems tremendously likely they're saving it for their own or someone else's use.  What company wouldn't want to make millions of all that data?

Again, considering a major ISP (AT&T) sells data to law enforcement pertaining to serious criminals, it's not unlikely that a local ISP would sell data to a local police force pertaining to lesser crimes.  Small town, mutual friends, same parties, upper-class, etc.  I know for a fact the local police force would relish busting a mushroom grower, based on reading on the newspaper article I mentioned above.  It's conceivable and legal, albeit I have no concrete evidence and the burden of proof is on me for making this assertion in the first place.

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Re: Using Local ISP/What can they see? How to browse without local surveillance? [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #25575265 -

I'm really not surprised isp's are giving out info. But, it'd have to be an illegal action to really make a case. Just dns info isn't great evidence for much. Its when you're downloading illegal software or media is where things get tricky. Packets getting tracked and such.

My isp gave over my info when I was tracked by time warner downloading batman the dark knight. I left for the weekend while it downloaded so it basically seeded all weekend lol. They threatened to sue me for everything I had if I didn't stop downloading movies.

Needless to say that was my last torrented movie.


--------------------
:mushroom2:Species found::mushroom2:
P. azurescens
P. cyanescens
P. semilanceata
P. pelliculosa
P. stuntzii
G. luteofolius
Pan. cinctulus

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Re: Using Local ISP/What can they see? How to browse without local surveillance? [Re: loco801]
    #25575304 -

Yeah.  I doubt DNS evidence for much - probably cause for concern/attention if a department gives a shit (which my local one would) but it's not cause for a warrant. 

and yeah - fuck ISPs.  A roommate torrented something when I was the owner of the account.  I had pop-ups from the company that wouldn't leave my screen unless I clicked "I agree" or something to that effect. (I didn't agree - I simply kept dragging the window out of my way)

I guess the point of this thread and everything summed up is, "ISPs sell your data.  AT&T is known to sell data pertaining to hardcore criminals (IMO not really hardcore - coke dealers probably fall into this category) to cops.  Therefore, it follows that a local ISP, without many subscribers and a localized base would possibly sell data to local police."

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Re: Using Local ISP/What can they see? How to browse without local surveillance? [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #25575427 -

If you really want to know what your ISP or any other router owner knows check into deep packet inspection. Also, this article was written well over a year ago. CPUs are cheaper, faster, and contain more cores.

https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/155057/my-isp-uses-deep-packet-inspection-what-can-they-observe

And remember that the NSA originally wrote TOR. And TOR has been susceptible to exit node leaks.


--------------------
Beware of unearned wisdom.
  - Carl Jung

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Re: Using Local ISP/What can they see? How to browse without local surveillance? [Re: tathlyn]
    #25575444 -

Interesting.  I'm going to be reading into this more.  Thank you for acknowledging, at the very least, what I've suspected as a possibility.

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