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OfflineFerather
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Re: The Official Woodlovers Thread [Re: pacmanbreed] * 1
    #25466548 - 09/17/18 07:47 AM (5 years, 6 months ago)

@Solipsis, No I'm mostly just pointing out that the moss present is a potential acidity indicator, low pH.
Laccases and oxidation can-will decay acidic phenols, similar to adding CaCO3 to acids.

It's possible that organisms produce energy with laccase + increase the pH.
The increased pH should have a positive effect with cellulase*.

*If the organism is capable of expelling neutral cellulase.

----

When I cased a cake with peat, pH 5, (flowerpot), I got limited surface growth.
After watering with pH 8.4 CaCO3 water, I got tons of surface growth.

----
----

@pacmanbreed, I don't think Cubensis expels acidic cellulases or proteases either.

When I tried Cubensis spores on acidic tea, it germinated, but stalled.
If you take away the acidity, and add trace sugar, it grows.


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OfflineWing
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Re: The Official Woodlovers Thread [Re: NothingsChanged] * 1
    #25466551 - 09/17/18 07:48 AM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

NothingsChanged said:
After the last hard freeze.  March/April late feb even

Can get your clean culture and make spawn in the winter then spawn to outdoors after the freeze.




That's the plan. Thanks!


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OfflineSolipsis
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Re: The Official Woodlovers Thread [Re: Wing]
    #25467253 - 09/17/18 01:33 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Well i only know of one kind of moss (peat moss) which very directly relates to acidic soil.. not sure if that is similar for the other kinds..

Apparently while moss likes to grow in acidic soil it is just fine in neutral or somewhat alkaline soil and as such not an indicator.

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OfflineFerather
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Re: The Official Woodlovers Thread [Re: Solipsis]
    #25467766 - 09/17/18 05:19 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

I cant seem to get a strait answer from Google on this one, my knowledge which was common once is pH 5-5.5 for moss.
However after a more recent search (just now) I can also find 'some' data that states pH makes no difference.

According to a write up the preference for acidity is more to do with lack of competitors?

----

Another interesting fact is Pleurotus nebrodensis fruits from limestone.

----

Edit:

Apparently you should know your species of moss, then it can be a pH indicator, see here.


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Edited by Ferather (09/17/18 05:51 PM)

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OfflineAdas
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Re: The Official Woodlovers Thread [Re: Ferather]
    #25468720 - 09/18/18 01:19 AM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Lol, I've been trying yesterday to at least identify the lawn moss, to no avail. Anyway, the lawn moss is not doing so well in my Azzy pot, the other, short moss is doing much better!

I'm giving them open air today, to let them dry out a bit so they're not soaked all the time.

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OfflineFerather
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Re: The Official Woodlovers Thread [Re: Adas]
    #25469119 - 09/18/18 07:39 AM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Fair enough, you could also try a high pH moss, and a higher or neutral substrate pH.

This way the mycelial enzymes will be happier (test various pH's):

Alkaline (7.0-11.0) or  Neutral (6.0-9.0) protease.
Alkaline (7.2-8.5) or Neutral (6.0-8.0) cellulase.
α-Amylase (6.7-7.0).

----

Reading into moss has become an interesting project.

I was already aware of key information I have read and seen in nature, but failed to apply it to plants (I work with mycelium 80% of the time).
There is actually an obvious answer as to why plants have a pH preference, and why different species can evolve around pH.

If I remember this correctly (please correct if wrong), higher plants cannot fixate nitrogen, it can only fixate carbon.
In addition, plants expel protease enzymes in order to acquire nitrogen, like other organisms.

Protease enzymes work with a pH range, outside this range they will destabilize.

----

In addition:

The plant also uses enzymes internally, that are not intentionally secreted, which can be used to cleave stored energy at night.
If the plant is absorbing a large amount of, for example, calcium bicarbonate, it could denature internal enzymes.

----

Other than the carbon fixation with light, moss and algae are an interesting topic to read.
Some species of algae and moss, can produce cellulases and laccases.

----

I am also wondering if some mycorrhizal fungi can produce a hormone or material that causes plants to expel more enzymes.
It's also possible for the mycelium to absorb and expel enzymes that are not intentionally expelled.

The mycorrhizal fungi will also be absorbing 'solubles' taken up by the plant.

----

https://www.foodenzymeinstitute.com/content/What-do-Plant-Enzymes-do.aspx


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Edited by Ferather (09/18/18 07:48 AM)

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OfflineAdas
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Re: The Official Woodlovers Thread [Re: Ferather]
    #25469259 - 09/18/18 08:37 AM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

If the plant is absorbing a large amount of, for example, calcium bicarbonate, it could denature internal enzymes.




It won't be. Firslty, because calcium (bi)carbonate is hardly soluble in water. Secondly, cells have ion pumps to keep the internal environment stable.

I thought plants had different pH preferences due to their uptake of minerals.. acidic pH will make most minerals more available.

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OfflineFerather
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Re: The Official Woodlovers Thread [Re: Adas]
    #25469275 - 09/18/18 08:42 AM (5 years, 6 months ago)

You are muddled, but otherwise correct.

Calcium carbonate, CaCO3, is insoluble | Calcium bicarbonate, Ca(HCO3)2, is soluble.

CaCO3 + CO2 + H2O = Ca(HCO3)2 | In addition include reactions with acids.

Calcium bicarbonate, Soluble in: Water.


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Re: The Official Woodlovers Thread [Re: Ferather]
    #25469341 - 09/18/18 09:15 AM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Right, sorry. Now I looked it up.. I thought bicarbonate was MUCH less soluble than it is! Still, it can't happen that so much of it would accumulate that it would cause high Ca concentration in the plant.

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OfflineFerather
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Re: The Official Woodlovers Thread [Re: Adas]
    #25472019 - 09/19/18 06:03 AM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Not true, If I take too many antacids, my blood pH will increase to alarming levels, and I would suffer.
The lower the substrates pH the higher the solubility of calcium, CaCO3 and Ca(OH)2.

If I add CaCO3 to pH 8.5 paper, without CO2, not much will happen.


https://courses.lumenlearning.com/suny-ap2/chapter/disorders-of-acid-base-balance/

----

"As the crop progresses and more insoluble calcium oxalate is formed a counter effect is taking place. The reserve of calcium carbonate is highly insoluble so
its slow to react to oxalate. This is a hindrance to the mycelium function – chemistry comes to the rescue! As carbon dioxide streams through the casing
from the compost 'mycelial' catabolism a reaction occurs with the excess of chalk. Equilibrium develops between the CO2 and calcium carbonate where a
significant percentage is converted into soluble calcium bicarbonate. This solubility makes the conversion into insoluble calcium oxalate much easier for
the mycelium."

"During cropping the metabolic activity of the crop produces oxalic acid as an end product. The mycelium can only dump this acid waste
product in the presence of calcium and at a preferred pH above 7. As the crop progresses to second and third flushes more of the calcium carbonate is
converted into 'soluble bicarbonate and then' highly insoluble calcium oxalate. At this point the mycelium is stressed to find available calcium carbonate,
hence the need for a calcium reserve (At least 10% of the casing by weight)."

http://www.themushroompeople.com/showArticle.asp?id=3962

----

In addition:

Lime bathing straw at a high pH will kill alkaline intolerant, and calcium intolerant organisms.
The end pH of straw after a 'proper' lime bath will be in the region of pH 8.0-8.5.

----

Spent cake removing oxalate in CaCO3 water, and then regenerating.

       

It even came with a free worm (pic 2).


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Edited by Ferather (09/19/18 06:52 AM)

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OfflineFerather
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Re: The Official Woodlovers Thread [Re: Ferather]
    #25475445 - 09/20/18 01:56 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Extract from my Cubensis log (might help germinate some species, alter where needed):

Substrate, WL-Tek: Soluble macro-micro nutrient enriched cellulose, pH 7-7.5.

Here is Cubensis spores on WL-Tek + wood peg with trace sucrose.
It germinated and grew after 4 days, but required sucrose.

   

Acid-free paper (no acidic phenols).

----

Dry spores where collected on the tip of the hydrated toothpick peg, using a print.

----


Here I spent a tea bag in 250g CaCO3 water (pH 8.0), to remove the phenol's.
I added trace sucrose, because Cubensis is -not- lignicolous.

   

It regenerated and grew out after only 8 hours.

   

----

   

   

   

----

I got 88% uniform growth after the initial spore peg was transferred.
The end pH of the tea bag was roughly 6.5, up from ~5.

No grain, bran, starch or agar was used.

----

Tea leaves, nutritional value.


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OfflineFerather
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Re: The Official Woodlovers Thread [Re: Ferather]
    #25475517 - 09/20/18 02:29 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

I also suggest germinating spores on your chosen end media where possible, this will encourage selectivity.
By selectivity, I mean the genetics that perform well on a media, setup, that is used to fruit.

This could be due to pH, enzymes (or lack of), nutrients and media composition.

Use small sizes, about 10-20g (dry) media is enough for spores-other.

----

General idea, alter where needed:

Once selectivity has taken place, a sample can be expanded again, or transferred to agar.
If you expand, take a sample to agar. Once on agar, continue as normal to spawn.

Tip: Any isolation made on agar, may produce agar based genetics.

----

Tips for cellulose:

Cellulose, while as rich as starch, it's considerably less reactive. It's produced mostly as structure (not storage).
Mycelium, even from spores, will require a faster release carbon source to decay cellulose well.

The faster release carbon will amplify the production of cellulase, and other.

Mycelium can germinate and grow out on 100% cellulose as carbon, however it's very slow and weak.
It takes mycelium around 4 months to improve to a 7 day standard decay rate on WL-Tek.

A 7 day decay rate (4 weeks to colonize) can be seen instantly with starch spawn.


Even plants use starch from seeds to start life in a cellulose environment.


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Re: The Official Woodlovers Thread [Re: Ferather] * 2
    #25478057 - 09/21/18 01:55 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

My friend constructed this nice wooden box for Azurescens - for next year. I have yet to find another person who is as enthusiastic about growing Woodlovers as he is!


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Re: The Official Woodlovers Thread [Re: Adas] * 2
    #25479641 - 09/22/18 01:47 AM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Make sure any pine used is not treated with chemicals. I once had the unfortunate experience of lighting up a bbq with treated pine and the resulting meat had a green tinge to it from the copper chrome arsenate in the pine. Tasted awful.

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Re: The Official Woodlovers Thread [Re: Warrk]
    #25479691 - 09/22/18 02:30 AM (5 years, 6 months ago)

We just painted it with regular paint. :smile:

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OfflineFerather
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Re: The Official Woodlovers Thread [Re: Adas]
    #25480111 - 09/22/18 07:44 AM (5 years, 6 months ago)

@Adas, looks good, and thick enough to stay sturdy for a while.
If you are lucky it could side pin from the wood box.


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InvisibleAdden
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Re: The Official Woodlovers Thread [Re: Warrk]
    #25480387 - 09/22/18 09:53 AM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Warrk said:
Make sure any pine used is not treated with chemicals. I once had the unfortunate experience of lighting up a bbq with treated pine and the resulting meat had a green tinge to it from the copper chrome arsenate in the pine. Tasted awful.




Mushrooms off treated pine can make you very very sick. I would have also skipped paint. Not to be a Debbie downer, but I'd use that for flowers or something and start anew. I wouldn't feel comfortable eating anything that fruited out of there, let alone sharing with friends or otherwise distributing. Be safe.

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OfflineFerather
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Re: The Official Woodlovers Thread [Re: Adden]
    #25480812 - 09/22/18 01:14 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Do you know if that's due to heavy metal accumulation? I've heard of cigarette waste being used.
The oysters contained a large amount of heavy metals, and reached toxic levels.


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Re: The Official Woodlovers Thread [Re: Ferather]
    #25480820 - 09/22/18 01:17 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

I hope his paint doesn't contain any heavy metals... It was just a regular paint with Xylene solvent, or something similar. Should be just fine

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OfflineSolipsis
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Re: The Official Woodlovers Thread [Re: Adas] * 1
    #25483076 - 09/23/18 01:35 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Kinds of paint exist which are environmentally friendly with various labels referring to toxicity/risk to plants, children and about presence of heavy metal and fluor compounds.. of course it will cost extra.

But other than that I think i would have left it unpainted and would try to get the myc to colonize the wood for a good part before exposing it outside to the elements so that contams of the wood shouldn't be a major problem.

You definitely don't want to eat mushrooms grown on wood treated with just any old coatings or impregnations n stuff.. but not all treatments are created equal. The solvent should be rather irrelevant as it evaporates. Besides, woodlovers might just be able to metabolize xylene [if so I expect this happens safely], but not sure.

It's good that you mention it, I have only just started to look into growing on sawdust waste from wood workshops - from what i know about those shops the sawdust should be relatively clean as it doesn't tend to be collected from finished and treated woods but in an earlier stage when objects are still being shopped roughly.


Bioavailability of calcium to humans when ingested orally in some form has nothing to do with how plants and fungi may be able to regulate levels of ions in certain cells. That pH may not directly affect enzyme activity actually sounds credible... also: pH affecting solubility of elements in soil and therefore bioavailability for plants works the same so it is not a large leap to think that this is one of the more important reasons why pH matters for fungi just the same.
I've never heard of metabolic acidosis or something like that affecting plants :wink:

That said: there is also a reason why they form mycorrhizal relationships: fungi are able to absorb other/more nutrients from the soil/substrate than plants which is the partial basis for the exchange, right?

To be certain about these influences and parameters I suggest you need direct in vivo evidence and not inference from indirect evidence like an isolated fact about the pH activity of enzymes in vitro.

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