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OfflinePhred
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Spot the Info!
    #2547824 - 04/11/04 02:46 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Here's a link to the infamous August 6, 2001 PDB.

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/10/august6.memo/index.html

There she be. Read it.

Done? Good. Because now we are going to do an exercise called "Spot the Actionable Information!"

Instructions:

1) Carefully read the memo.
2) Take a few minutes (hours, days, weeks -- whatever you're comfortable with) to analyze it.
3) Cite the actionable intelligence - meaning "something specific that action could have been taken on" to prevent 9/11.

pinky


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Invisibleadrug

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
Re: Spot the Info! [Re: Phred]
    #2547919 - 04/11/04 03:18 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Parts of the original document were not made public by the White House for security reasons.




I think this will make it a bit hard to do that.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Spot the Info! [Re: adrug]
    #2547969 - 04/11/04 03:40 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

And there's the rub. The Bush haters will automatically assume that the redacted parts held actionable intelligence. Even if the original document had been released in its entirety with no security deletions whatsoever, the "Bush Knew" crowd would say (correctly) there is no way to prove it was complete.

Therefore, releasing the document was a lose-lose proposition for the White House. It proves exactly nothing -- either way. So what the fuck was the fuss all about? Why the pressure to release it if it is meaningless?

pinky


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Spot the Info! [Re: Phred]
    #2547975 - 04/11/04 03:43 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Well, from the famous PNAC document from '96, we have proof that the administration understood that it would be in their best interest not to prevent such an attack, so while this still doesn't prove that Bush knew, the pieces are starting to add up for me.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Spot the Info! [Re: silversoul7]
    #2547997 - 04/11/04 03:54 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

So what was the point of having the hearings in the first place? In these days of computerized filing, how can you trust any document? And after such stirling examples of political honesty as Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton, how can you trust any testimony coming from a politician -- sworn or not?

If one's take on things going into it is to disregard documentary evidence and reject sworn testimony, what's left? Answer -- nothing.

So let's just shitcan the whole circle jerk, recognize reality -- it was neither Bush's fault nor Clinton's fault; it was the Jihadist's fault -- and move on with the task of changing the way threats are appraised and responded to so that 9/11 ends up being a one-time event.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Spot the Info! [Re: silversoul7]
    #2548005 - 04/11/04 03:56 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

silversoul7 writes:

Well, from the famous PNAC document from '96...

PNAC is not the administration.

pinky


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Invisibleadrug

Registered: 02/04/03
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Re: Spot the Info! [Re: Phred]
    #2548020 - 04/11/04 04:05 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I wasn't assuming anything, I'm just saying that if the document is incomplete it is pointless to analyze it for content.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Spot the Info! [Re: adrug]
    #2548025 - 04/11/04 04:09 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Not so. Depends what has been deleted. For example, if the only stuff that was deleted was the names of the agent or agency supplying the information, then an analysis of whether the info supplied by that agent is "actionable" is possible.

pinky


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Invisibleadrug

Registered: 02/04/03
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Re: Spot the Info! [Re: Phred]
    #2548030 - 04/11/04 04:12 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

They didn't say specifically what was deleted in this case unfortunately.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Spot the Info! [Re: Phred]
    #2548037 - 04/11/04 04:19 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
silversoul7 writes:

Well, from the famous PNAC document from '96...

PNAC is not the administration.



Their members overlap quite a bit.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Spot the Info! [Re: adrug]
    #2548042 - 04/11/04 04:20 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

That's my point.

I repeat, even if they had released the entire thing -- no edits whatsoever -- the partisans would claim Bush had removed stuff without admitting it.

This makes the release of the document an exercise in futility.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Spot the Info! [Re: silversoul7]
    #2548044 - 04/11/04 04:22 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

silversoul7 writes:

Their members overlap quite a bit.

So does the membership of Skull and Bones and the Masons and probably for that matter the Catholic Church. What's your point?

pinky


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Invisibleadrug

Registered: 02/04/03
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Re: Spot the Info! [Re: Phred]
    #2548045 - 04/11/04 04:22 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Good point! :smirk: I apologize if I misunderstood, it seemed more like you were fishing for liberals than making a point at first. :wink:


Edited by adrug (04/11/04 04:24 AM)


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Spot the Info! [Re: Phred]
    #2548326 - 04/11/04 10:16 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

So let's just shitcan the whole circle jerk, recognize reality -- it was neither Bush's fault nor Clinton's fault; it was the Jihadist's fault




You seem to be implying that your view of 'reality' is somehow more correct than others. If Bush did know the attacks were going to happen, and he did nothing, then he should share some of the blame. It seems a bit presumptuous to declare anyone blame free until the report comes out at the very least.

Quote:

I repeat, even if they had released the entire thing -- no edits whatsoever -- the partisans would claim Bush had removed stuff without admitting it.

This makes the release of the document an exercise in futility.




So basically you think the document is 'meaningless' because some people will claim it's been doctored? Should we junk data from the Mars probes as 'meaningless' because some conspiracy theorists may think it's been faked?

Quote:


Their members overlap quite a bit.

So does the membership of Skull and Bones and the Masons and probably for that matter the Catholic Church. What's your point?




I don't recall the Masons, Catholics or Skull & Bones organisations publically releasing documents in the last few years that openly advocate global military domination as actual US policy (although I'm open to correction).


To get back to the document though. I think these paragraphs point to information that could have been acted on, or at least as an indication of how high the threat level appeared to be.

We have not been able to corroborate some of the more sensational threat reporting, such as that from a ---- service in 1998 saying that Bin Laden wanted to hijack a U.S. aircraft to gain the release of "Blind Sheikh" Omar Abdel Rahman and other U.S.-held extremists.

Nevertheless, FBI information since that time indicates patterns of suspicious activity in this country consistent with preparations for hijackings or other types of attacks, including recent surveillance of federal buildings in New York.

The FBI is conducting approximately 70 full-field investigations throughout the U.S. that it considers bin Laden-related. CIA and the FBI are investigating a call to our embassy in the UAE in May saying that a group or bin Laden supporters was in the U.S. planning attacks with explosives.


Connect the dots and it seems pretty obvious that some sort of attack was being planned. What did the President do after he received this document on Aug 6th? He went on a month-long holiday. I can't claim to know what action could have been taken, but going on holiday isn't exactly what I'd picture.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Spot the Info! [Re: Phred]
    #2548382 - 04/11/04 10:58 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

And there's the rub. The Bush haters will automatically assume that the redacted parts held actionable intelligence

More telling is how someone asking a logical question is automatically labelled by you as a Bush-hater. The poster gave no opinion. According to you, we are supposed to be thorough before replying, but it appears you find thoroughness objectionable.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Spot the Info! [Re: Swami]
    #2548676 - 04/11/04 01:35 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

And where did I say Adrug was a Bush-hater?

She did what I asked -- she read the link, thought about it, and instantly put her finger right on the very most relevant issue. Although there is no actionable intelligence there, there is no way to prove there wasn't at some point before its release.

pinky


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Spot the Info! [Re: Phred]
    #2548692 - 04/11/04 01:45 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

It is called juxtaposition. Now I see that you were just spouting unfounded hyperbole rather than responding to the poster.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Spot the Info! [Re: Edame]
    #2548711 - 04/11/04 01:58 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Edame writes:

You seem to be implying that your view of 'reality' is somehow more correct than others.

It is. Was it Chamberlain's fault that Hitler invaded Poland?

If Bush did know the attacks were going to happen, and he did nothing, then he should share some of the blame.

Operative word here being "if". There is no credible evidence he did.

It seems a bit presumptuous to declare anyone blame free until the report comes out at the very least.

Anyone who has been following the committee's work knows already what the conclusion will be. The testimony for the most part has been public (with the notable exception of Clinton and Gore), and leaks are the norm. There will be no "smoking gun" here.

I think these paragraphs point to information that could have been acted on...

Uh huh. Let's look at your discoveries:

1) An uncorroborated three year old report that bin Laden wanted to hijack an aircraft.

2) FBI reports of suspicious activity consistent with hijack preparations.

3) A single, non second-sourced phone call to a US embassy in an Arab country claiming bin Laden's group was planning an attack on the US with explosives someday.

What this boils down to is the possibility that someday someone may hijack an airliner somewhere in the US and fly it somewhere else. Or that someday someone may plant a bomb somewhere in the US.

This is actionable intelligence? If you honestly think so, then you must be one of the posters here who believe the Iraqi chem and bio weapons are still out there somewhere. There are orders of magnitude more evidence for their (the weapons) existence than the "evidence" in that August 6 PDB that specific members of Al Qaeda would on a specific day at specific times seize specific airplanes from specific locations and use them not to bargain for the release of any "political prisoners" (as the 1998 report suggests), but instead fly them into buildings.

pinky


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Spot the Info! [Re: Phred]
    #2548759 - 04/11/04 04:01 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

You seem to be implying that your view of 'reality' is somehow more correct than others.

It is.




I can see things sliding downhill from here. I can't argue with someone who knows that their view of reality is the right one (an almost partisan viewpoint I think). I'll finish my reply, but I don't see much point taking it further.

Quote:

Was it Chamberlain's fault that Hitler invaded Poland?




Are we talking about Chamberlain or WWII?

Quote:

If Bush did know the attacks were going to happen, and he did nothing, then he should share some of the blame.

Operative word here being "if". There is no credible evidence he did.




That's why I used it. There may not be a 'smoking gun' (yet) that says "Bush Knew", but there are plenty of warnings like these, from both home and abroad. There's the continual foot-dragging and lack of co-operation with this report, the rushed through PATRIOT act, the war on terror that became a war on Iraq. There's enough to make me think that there's something rotten about the whole thing.


Quote:

It seems a bit presumptuous to declare anyone blame free until the report comes out at the very least.

Anyone who has been following the committee's work knows already what the conclusion will be. The testimony for the most part has been public (with the notable exception of Clinton and Gore), and leaks are the norm. There will be no "smoking gun" here.




I can't really argue with that either. In my version of 'reality' I can try to predict what the conclusion may be, but I can't know it before it's finished.

Quote:

I think these paragraphs point to information that could have been acted on...

Uh huh. Let's look at your discoveries:

1) An uncorroborated three year old report that bin Laden wanted to hijack an aircraft.

2) FBI reports of suspicious activity consistent with hijack preparations.

3) A single, non second-sourced phone call to a US embassy in an Arab country claiming bin Laden's group was planning an attack on the US with explosives someday.

What this boils down to is the possibility that someday someone may hijack an airliner somewhere in the US and fly it somewhere else. Or that someday someone may plant a bomb somewhere in the US.

This is actionable intelligence?





You forgot the 70 FBI full-field investigations.

Quote:

There are orders of magnitude more evidence for their (the weapons) existence than the "evidence" in that August 6 PDB that specific members of Al Qaeda would on a specific day at specific times seize specific airplanes from specific locations and use them not to bargain for the release of any "political prisoners" (as the 1998 report suggests), but instead fly them into buildings.




Strange to see you arguing the same kind of logic as Rice:
"This was not a 'threat report,' " she said. It "did not warn of any coming attack inside the United States." Later in the hearing, she restated the point: "The PDB does not say the United States is going to be attacked. It says Bin Laden would like to attack the United States."

I guess maybe it depends on what your definition of "threat report" is. As long as it wasn't there in big neon lights they couldn't possibly have done a thing.

Factor in the intelligence "chatter" she mentions:

"Unbelievable news in coming weeks"
"Big event ... there will be a very, very, very, very big uproar"
"There will be attacks in the near future"


Add some foreign intelligence into the mix:

Quote:

The Taliban warned:
"Weeks before the terrorist attacks on 11 September, the United States and the United Nations ignored warnings from a secret Taliban emissary that Osama bin Laden was planning a huge attack on American soil."
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/politics/story.jsp?story=331115

The Germans warned:
"According to an article in one of the major daily newspapers in Germany, published just after the destruction of the World Trade Center, the German intelligence service BND told both US and Israeli intelligence agencies in June that Middle East terrorists were 'planning to hijack commercial aircraft to use as weapons to attack important symbols of American and Israeli culture.'

"The newspaper cited unnamed German intelligence sources, who said that the information came through Echelon, the US-controlled system of 120 satellites which monitors all worldwide electronic communications. Echelon is operated jointly by the United States, Canada, Britain, Australia and New Zealand, although its existence is not officially admitted."
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/jan2002/sept-j16.shtml

The Egyptians warned:
"Egyptian intelligence warned American officials about a week before Sept. 11 that Osama bin Laden's network was in the advance stages of executing a significant operation against an American target, President Hosni Mubarak said in an interview on Sunday."
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/04/national/04WARN.html

The Russians warned:
According to Russian press reports, Russian intelligence notified the CIA during the summer that 25 terrorist pilots had been specifically training for suicide missions. In an interview September 15 with MSNBC, Russian President Vladimir Putin confirmed that he had ordered Russian intelligence in August to warn the US government "in the strongest possible terms" of imminent attacks on airports and government buildings.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/jan2002/sept-j16.shtml

The French warned:
"A key point in unraveling why the FBI failed to follow up leads on Al Qaeda terrorism now centers on the Bureau's contemptuously brushing aside warnings from French intelligence a few days before 9-11."
http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0222/ridgeway2.php

The British warned:
"Britain gave President Bush a categorical warning to expect multiple airline hijackings by the al-Qaeda network a month before the September 11 attacks which killed nearly 3000 people and triggered the international war against terrorism."
http://www.sundayherald.com/24822

The Israelis warned:
The London Telegraph: "Israeli intelligence officials say that they warned their counterparts in the United States last month that large-scale terrorist attacks on highly visible targets on the American mainland were imminent."
http://tinyurl.com/28rrh

The Moroccans warned:
"A Moroccan secret agent, Hassan Dabou, had penetrated al Qaeda for two years, breaking cover the summer of 2001 to warn of 'spectacular' attacks in New York in the summer or autumn of 2001. Secret service chiefs are said to have taken seriously the tip from one of its veteran informants and immediately passed on the details to Washington."
Times of London, June 12, 2002

Arab intelligence agencies warned:
"When the hubbub about what the White House did or didn't know before Sept. 11 dies down, Congressional or other investigators should consider the specific warnings that friendly Arab intelligence services sent to Washington in the summer of 2001."
http://www.iht.com/articles/58269.html




That kind of lends things another perspective for me. Finally let's not forget the title of this important classified President's briefing: "Bin Laden Determined to Strike in U.S.".
And the Pres went on holiday.

Edit: "In his first comments since Saturday's release of the presidential daily brief, Bush said the document contained "nothing about an attack on America."


Edited by Edame (04/11/04 04:21 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Spot the Info! [Re: Swami]
    #2549374 - 04/11/04 09:52 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Swami writes:

It is called juxtaposition.

What is?

Now I see that you were just spouting unfounded hyperbole rather than responding to the poster.

Incorrect. There are two possibilities here:

1) The copy of the report handed to the committee has excluded only legitimate security-related details (i.e. the names of the agents or perhaps the methods by which their report was gathered) but is otherwise identical to the original document Bush received on August 6, 2001.

2) The copy of the report has excluded more than legitimate security-related info (i.e. specific and actionable information).

If one buys premise 1), then it is apparent there was no actionable information -- that particular PDB was in fact exactly as described.

If one buys premise 2), then the report -- and all other reports turned over by the Bush administration -- are literally worthless to any investigative body, since there is no way of verifying any of them are tamper-free.

Please explain to the readers here how this constitutes unfounded hyperbole. Adrug chose to go with premise 2), and correctly pointed out that if one believes premise 2), looking for actionable intelligence is a waste of time. I see no errors in logic in either her statements or in mine.

pinky


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