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Offlineekomstop
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Characters in dreams
    #2545257 - 04/09/04 11:33 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Who or what are they, exactly?  Anybody given this much thought?

One popular assumption (#1) is that if a person you know plays a role in your dream (say your friend Bob, for example), that basically all aspects of Bob your mind has collected over time through interaction with him while awake, will essentially make up who "dream" Bob is. 

Sounds like a reasonable assumption..Yes?  What about the dream characters you don't know in real life?

An assumption (#2) to this might be, these dream "people" or entities could basically be products created in your mind for the sole purpose of playing a role in your dream..based on your minds collected memory of all entities it has come into concact with throughout waking life.

Maybe so.  Anyone disagree with either of these statements at all?  They do sound like reasonable assumptions to me.  I don't mean to restrict the basis of this post to these two assumptions, especially if there are other ideas that may hold more weight here (if you have any in mind please share!), but these seem to be the only two I can think of at the moment..

I have been thinking about the possibility of a third element that may hold some additional weight in regards to the other entities that seem to appear so frequently in most (I'd assume) if not all of our dreams.  Before I go off saying maybe it would be worth considering there may some 'external' factors at work in dreams (while I can't deny it seems to me there very well could be) I am currently making an attempt at exploring different possibilities that dreams and the events that occur within them are all essentially a product of, and in turn take place entirely inside the experiencers mind.

So, if this is the case,  then I wonder, why is it so that dreams can have such a huge impact on a person on so many levels?  If everything that occurs in a dream is a product of your very own mind, how can some of the events that take place during them come as such an emotional shock to an individual?  All experiences would essentially have to be a part of YOU, would they not?  Have the emotions they can potentially bring to the surface simply been buried for so long that we have forgotten they were even there?  Did we ever know they were there in the first place?  If not, how did they get there?

Anyway..lately I have been dabbling with thoughts that seem to suggest a possible kind of A.I. created by the mind for your entertainment and learning pleasure, in dreams.  I have noticed repeatedly in dreams, alot of the characters involved seem to behave like they have their own agenda, as if they are 'extras' like in a movie.  Why are they in my dream?  To set the stage, perhaps..to create the perfect environment for that particular dream (experience).

So, now my question is....Who or what is controlling these characters?  Sure, going by assumption #2, they may essentially be a product of my mind..but again, alot of the time they do seem to be acting out of their own agenda, and, perhaps are not there for the sole purpose of influencing my perception of the experience.

Getting back to the thought of a kind of (artificial?) intelligence taking place, the only reference I can think of at the moment would be a certain aspect of Mckenna's (of course) description of his encounters with what he called "self transforming elf machine", things.  Yes, those things...please don't hit me.. :smile:  Anyway, he described their ability to 'spit' out other impossible looking 'elf machines'.. and, these 'new' secondary creatures could then produce their own next generation of creatures..and so on.  An endless ongoing process of apparent conscious entities producing new independently conscious entities, which are in turn able to produce more, and more, and more.

Although "self transforming elf machine" type creatures may not necessary sound like a valid basis for a theory regarding anything..Please, bare with me for a moment.

The connection I am trying to make here is, assuming these 'self transforming elf machines' are in some sense pure consciousness as is what I would think might be active inside the dreamstate, that perhaps, while we dream, our mind in some sense might be able to take on this ability, and produce (temporary?) extentions of itself, which can then manifest into their own independent consciousness, and go about their business as if they were seperate from the source that created them.

Now that I think about it, that almost sounds like we could be taking a role as what the concept of 'god' suggests, while we dream..creating extentions of ourself, all the while those extentions explore and learn on their own, subjectively.  The thing that really bugs me about this idea is, when and how did I even choose to create these extentions of myself in the first place?  Would the information they collect during their subjective experience come back to me when I wake up?  Or would some aspect of their subjectivity continue to exist beyond that?

This is just me tossing some more ideas around, again I have no idea what to believe, or if I will ever find myself able to come to any conclusions.  Though I am very curious what others' take on this phenomenon may be.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Characters in dreams [Re: ekomstop]
    #2545266 - 04/09/04 11:40 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Dang man! You should see some of the hotties in my dreams. Woo hoo! :loveeyes:


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Characters in dreams [Re: ekomstop]
    #2545322 - 04/10/04 12:10 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Yes, I always wonder about my dreams... alot of times my dreams will be situations I'm dealing with in life , other times they are random with no similarity to any of my memories and it seems my mind created the dream, yet others there seems to be an unknown force controlling things my proof of this unknown factor involved is this: 4 times have I had dreams so accurately predictive that there could be no other explanation for them except some sort of esp. This is all from my personal perspective, though. I think my dreams demonstrate to me 3 aspects : the mind and its ego as contemplates life issues, the random seemingly distant dream that my mind creates, and then the ones with the 3rd force involved... of course, it's not like I only have 3 different types of dreams... the 3 aspects intertwine to make my dream life.


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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: Characters in dreams [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2545897 - 04/10/04 04:46 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

>4 times have I had dreams so accurately predictive that there could be no other explanation for them except some sort of esp. This is all from my personal perspective
-That changes everything.


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OfflineGrav
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Re: Characters in dreams [Re: ekomstop]
    #2545957 - 04/10/04 06:33 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I think dreams are a place where i can see all the meaningful symbols in my life up close. Maybe they are reminders of what im living for.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Characters in dreams [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2545986 - 04/10/04 07:29 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

4 times have I had dreams so accurately predictive that there could be no other explanation for them except some sort of esp

Maybe, maybe not. Why is no one ever able to post their predictive dreams for later verification? 300,000,000 + Americans and no reports of 9/11 premonitions. I once dreamt that I would do laundry the next day and it happened!


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Characters in dreams [Re: ekomstop]
    #2545990 - 04/10/04 07:32 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

if a person you know plays a role in your dream (say your friend Bob, for example),

*Swami gets chills* How could you have possibly known about my friend Bob?  :oogle:


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Characters in dreams [Re: ekomstop]
    #2546238 - 04/10/04 11:06 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I have wondered this as well. 

there have been people that I have seen in my dream that I had enver seen before.  voices were unique as well.

now with assumptions....

1) before we go into what might be controlling these figures, why not ask, "where" are the dreams taking place?

2) Are they real...in the sense that these entities are dictated by the same laws of physics and emotions that we have?

3) is it just in our heads...or is our brain "tuning" into something else? 

"So, if this is the case, then I wonder, why is it so that dreams can have such a huge impact on a person on so many levels? If everything that occurs in a dream is a product of your very own mind, how can some of the events that take place during them come as such an emotional shock to an individual? All experiences would essentially have to be a part of YOU, would they not? Have the emotions they can potentially bring to the surface simply been buried for so long that we have forgotten they were even there? Did we ever know they were there in the first place? If not, how did they get there?"

thinking about this, maybe the mind doesn't know it's creating these images and places, or at least the ego. If that is the case it would be very strange indeed.  we would have to know how the unconcsious mind works, and where is the source of all this information if the mind is indeed "unconscious"

what if the mind did know what it is doing at the unconscious level....that would be even stranger!

hmmm...need to think about this more

great post!!!!  :thumbup:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Characters in dreams [Re: Swami]
    #2546515 - 04/10/04 01:32 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

DUde, ShroomHermit, and mainly Swami... these dreams were NOT grand predictive dreams like seeing the twin towers fall, or the president getting assinated... they were subtle... I will list one example : I dreamed that I came home , and walked into a room and my dad was sitting there... he said "i'm sorry, an old friend of ours has passed away" , and then in the dream I walked off to my room and just sort of floated in mourning... the whole time the dream has a fuzzy feeling to it, which I associate with other premonition dreams..... , the next day after school, I come home(having totally forgot about my dream) and my dad is sitting in the exact same chair and he says ' I have something to tell you' all of a sudden it came back and i KNEW what he was going to tell me... and he did... it happened JUST as it did in the dream , and the details were so acurate there is no doubt in my mind an unknown force was involved.... and no, the lady who died wasent in ER or cancerous... She was healthy, besides old age, and her death was VERY unexpected... thats one of the 4 dreams I've had that are proof to me.... Just thought I would clarify as to why I dident call 911 to stop her from dying


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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: Characters in dreams [Re: ekomstop]
    #2546652 - 04/10/04 02:15 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

>Who or what are they, exactly? Anybody given this much thought?
-Freud has. He says that in a dream you play every one.

>If everything that occurs in a dream is a product of your very own mind, how can some of the events that take place during them come as such an emotional shock to an individual?
-Maybe the sub-conciousness plays a role in dreams.

2experimental: You've only had four dreams that seemed to predict events? At your age you've probably had thousands of dreams. How many events from each dream could have been later linked as a prediction? Probably hundreds. Probability would explain this, and also why "god is spontaneous" at granting favors.

I think your mind may have added more details to your memory of the dream after the fact.


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Characters in dreams [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #2546668 - 04/10/04 02:21 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Your wrong, because the number of 'supposed' premonition dreams i've had  is WAY high.. in the hundreds... but I later realized it was coincidence, my mind, other factors... The point here is not trying to prove esp... it's trying to prove there is an unknown factor involved... and to ME, this is proved by the four undeniably premonistic dreams I have had......"""">Who or what are they, exactly? Anybody given this much thought?
-Freud has. He says that in a dream you play every one.
""" I think ekomstop meant if anyone here had personal imput to what dreams are :smile:


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Characters in dreams [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2547302 - 04/10/04 11:39 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

A few questions:

1. Would you consider the dream a premonition if your father's friend had died two days later instead of one?

2. How old is your father?

3. How many friends does he have?

4. How many similar dreams did not come true?

5. Will you wager on your next premonition coming true?


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Characters in dreams [Re: Swami]
    #2547334 - 04/10/04 11:53 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Would you consider the dream a premonition if your father's friend had died two days later instead of one"

As long as it happened the same as it did in the dream


"How many similar dreams did not come true"
It is not about the ones that did not come true. It's about the fact that some did come true , undeniably accurate, and that alone proves the existence of some higher 'power' , because such things like this are not on the scientific level, like proving if water droplets form a pattern over time, let alone plain scientific standards.

"Will you wager on your next premonition coming true"
No, because how would I know if it was a premonition until it came true? Don't take me wrong. I am not saying I some how tuned into forces that I can not see, I am saying that Those unknown forces were somehow tuned into me, and got a glimpse of something un earthly. These events happen to millions across the Earth, but they either do not realize it, do not remember it, or misinterpret the information in destructive manor.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Characters in dreams [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2547375 - 04/11/04 12:03 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Would you consider the dream a premonition if your father's friend had died two days later instead of one"

As long as it happened the same as it did in the dream

What is the time limit for a prediction to be accurate? 5 days, a month, 1 year, 10 years, none? I predict that Don Rickles will die "soon".

It is not about the ones that did not come true.
No, of course not as that would "dilute" the predictions to mere chance.

No, because how would I know if it was a premonition until it came true?
Nice, albeit meaningless, tautology.

These events happen to millions across the Earth, but they either do not realize it, do not remember it, or misinterpret the information in destructive manor.
AS ALWAYS, here comes the wiggling about why mystic events are not noted. Is the millions "out there" that are blind; never possible that you are mistaken.


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Characters in dreams [Re: Swami]
    #2547460 - 04/11/04 12:27 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"What is the time limit for a prediction to be accurate? 5 days, a month, 1 year, 10 years, none? I predict that Don Rickles will die "soon". "

Sheesh man, miss my flow the first time? If you did, there is no time limit on predictive dreams. And no, saying Don will die soon is not predicting... tell me the color of the shirt , the reason he died , where he was, that is predicting.


"AS ALWAYS, here comes the wiggling about why mystic events are not noted. Is the millions "out there" that are blind; never possible that you are mistaken"
Mistaken? No I think your mistaken. Don't take it that I am saying that what I have discovered on my own path is in any way meant for anyone else to experience. People who do not understand religion correctly bother me. Buddah and Jesus and All the others, did not mean to be made into public figures, rather they hoped their message would be passed on as knowledge into the subject of the unknown factors. I'm sure they realized the possibility of humans crystalizing their teachings into creeds, and using it for power, but did they hope we would take the message that way: no. The true religion is your own. That been said I DO think some people out there are 'mistaken' in their own personal interpreation/interaction(religion?) of the world... do I even have to site the endless list of deeds done that all would agree 'wrong'.


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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: Characters in dreams [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2547501 - 04/11/04 12:39 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

>It is not about the ones that did not come true. It's about the fact that some did come true , undeniably accurate, and that alone proves the existence of some higher 'power'
-Correctly guessing winning lottery numbers is pretty amazing; after all it takes such an accurate number to win. It will seem even more amazing if you dismiss the fact that 10,000 other tickets you bought that same day didn't come true.

Every now and then something will happen in a dream that bears remarkable resemblance to something occuring in real life. Any one particular event in a dream will have a very small chance of being reproduced in real life, but so many things happen during the course of a dream. Just as buying 10,000 lottery tickets every night will eventually lead to winning the jackpot, you are bound to run into some spooky occurances every now and then.

>how would I know if it was a premonition until it came true?
-It's only considered a premonition after it's accuracy has been demonstrated... but what about all the things that didn't happen like it did in the dream. You mind takes the one in ten thousand things that actually "came true" and explains it as a premonition. Whats the point of a premonition (A warning in advance) if you can't distinguish it untill after the fact?

Think of a 3 digit number. Now, let me guess at it an unlimited amount of times; don't worry I'll eventually get it. Under your current thinking, the one time I got it right was undeniably accurate... and you will forget about all the numbers that I guess that didn't even come close.


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Characters in dreams [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #2547529 - 04/11/04 12:45 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

" you are bound to run into some spooky occurances every now and then"

Is that so? So can you list any psychic dreams you have had that you remember exact details in the last 1o years?

"It's only considered a premonition after it's accuracy has been demonstrated"
That would be if you are measuring on scientific standards, and if I recall, it has never been done.


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Re: Characters in dreams [Re: ekomstop]
    #2547533 - 04/11/04 12:48 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ekomstop said:
Who or what are they, exactly?  Anybody given this much thought?

One popular assumption (#1) is that if a person you know plays a role in your dream (say your friend Bob, for example), that basically all aspects of Bob your mind has collected over time through interaction with him while awake, will essentially make up who "dream" Bob is. 

Sounds like a reasonable assumption..Yes?  What about the dream characters you don't know in real life?

An assumption (#2) to this might be, these dream "people" or entities could basically be products created in your mind for the sole purpose of playing a role in your dream..based on your minds collected memory of all entities it has come into concact with throughout waking life.

Maybe so.  Anyone disagree with either of these statements at all?  They do sound like reasonable assumptions to me.  I don't mean to restrict the basis of this post to these two assumptions, especially if there are other ideas that may hold more weight here (if you have any in mind please share!), but these seem to be the only two I can think of at the moment..

I have been thinking about the possibility of a third element that may hold some additional weight in regards to the other entities that seem to appear so frequently in most (I'd assume) if not all of our dreams.  Before I go off saying maybe it would be worth considering there may some 'external' factors at work in dreams (while I can't deny it seems to me there very well could be) I am currently making an attempt at exploring different possibilities that dreams and the events that occur within them are all essentially a product of, and in turn take place entirely inside the experiencers mind.

So, if this is the case,  then I wonder, why is it so that dreams can have such a huge impact on a person on so many levels?  If everything that occurs in a dream is a product of your very own mind, how can some of the events that take place during them come as such an emotional shock to an individual?  All experiences would essentially have to be a part of YOU, would they not?  Have the emotions they can potentially bring to the surface simply been buried for so long that we have forgotten they were even there?  Did we ever know they were there in the first place?  If not, how did they get there?

Anyway..lately I have been dabbling with thoughts that seem to suggest a possible kind of A.I. created by the mind for your entertainment and learning pleasure, in dreams.  I have noticed repeatedly in dreams, alot of the characters involved seem to behave like they have their own agenda, as if they are 'extras' like in a movie.  Why are they in my dream?  To set the stage, perhaps..to create the perfect environment for that particular dream (experience).

So, now my question is....Who or what is controlling these characters?  Sure, going by assumption #2, they may essentially be a product of my mind..but again, alot of the time they do seem to be acting out of their own agenda, and, perhaps are not there for the sole purpose of influencing my perception of the experience.

Getting back to the thought of a kind of (artificial?) intelligence taking place, the only reference I can think of at the moment would be a certain aspect of Mckenna's (of course) description of his encounters with what he called "self transforming elf machine", things.  Yes, those things...please don't hit me.. :smile:  Anyway, he described their ability to 'spit' out other impossible looking 'elf machines'.. and, these 'new' secondary creatures could then produce their own next generation of creatures..and so on.  An endless ongoing process of apparent conscious entities producing new independently conscious entities, which are in turn able to produce more, and more, and more.

Although "self transforming elf machine" type creatures may not necessary sound like a valid basis for a theory regarding anything..Please, bare with me for a moment.

The connection I am trying to make here is, assuming these 'self transforming elf machines' are in some sense pure consciousness as is what I would think might be active inside the dreamstate, that perhaps, while we dream, our mind in some sense might be able to take on this ability, and produce (temporary?) extentions of itself, which can then manifest into their own independent consciousness, and go about their business as if they were seperate from the source that created them.

Now that I think about it, that almost sounds like we could be taking a role as "god" while we dream..creating extentions of ourself, all the while those extentions explore and learn on their own, subjectively.  The thing that really bugs me about this idea is, when and how did I even choose to create these extentions of myself in the first place?  Would the information they collect during their subjective experience come back to me when I wake up?  Or would some aspect of their subjectivity continue to exist beyond that?

This is just me tossing some more ideas around, again I have no idea what to believe, or if I will ever find myself able to come to any conclusions.  Though I am very curious what others' take on this phenomenon may be.




They are just manifestations of the human mind.


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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: Characters in dreams [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2547563 - 04/11/04 01:00 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

>tell me the color of the shirt , the reason he died , where he was, that is predicting.
-But it was proof to you in only 2 circumstances. 1) your dad was sitting in a particular chair 2) a friend of his died
Does your father usually sit in a particular chair?

>the dream has a fuzzy feeling to it, which I associate with other premonition dreams
>it happened JUST as it did in the dream , and the details were so acurate
-I suggested earlier that you filled in details to your memory of the dream based on what occured in real life. You described your dream as fuzzy; many of the details in dreams seems to be lost after you wake up. Later when your dream seemed to be comming real all of the details happened to be exactly the same? Maybe as you were experiencing the real life version, the details suddenly filled into the originally blurred details of the dream. This seems like better reasoning than the details of your dream affecting events in real life.

>The true religion is your own. That been said I DO think some people out there are 'mistaken'
-All personal truths are true to that person. Does that mean all personal truths are true? Well then, what does that say about personal truths?


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Re: Characters in dreams [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #2547582 - 04/11/04 01:07 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"But it was proof to you in only 2 circumstances. 1) your dad was sitting in a particular chair 2) a friend of his died
Does your father usually sit in a particular chair?"
Only 2 I listed... do you really I think I am going to list out all the details I remmebered here, and do you think I would call 2 details undeniable proof?

"You described your dream as fuzzy"
Once again you misinterpreted what I meant by fuzzy. The story of all conversation. Let me clarrify. Fuzzy not as a un sureness of remembering things, rather, a fuzzy feeling, something very hard to describe, but I would label as diffinatly not un pleasurable.


"All personal truths are true to that person. Does that mean all personal truths are true"

My statement implyed that there is a universal truth , but the path that one must reach to it are personal. So if you want to get to semantics, all personal truths are true on that level, but not on All levels.


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